Duggs Deepstack thread

JCgrind

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also, would love to know how you determine what to call vs a 3b? well, tbh, i more want to know how the **** you find folds ever? lol

i fold weak Ax, dominated hands like QJ/KJ etc but thats pretty much it? we both have pretty similar opening ranges but yeah, youre just finding more folds and i dont get how/when/why and this is a big, if not the main part of my game requiring serious work.

do you just like, not call 3bs OOP or something? (thats dumb, calling 3bs oop is the nuts)

EDIT: just ran a filter for called 3b OOP. am i correct in assuming that i would compare the results of this to 'hands played*3' = the amount we wouldve lost had we just folded to all 3bs while OOP?

adding a filter so results didnt include PPs surprisingly didnt show worse results either which i found interesting
 
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cardriverx

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gg man!!! A sincere good luck!!!!
so i will treat this thread as your the well asking u some random questions:

poker related: could you post your HUD setup? Then I am curious to see your overall personal stats as well; this is basically to know what's your play style? Do u define yourself as a TAG player? nit? laggish??

What do u mean with nl25 deep?? normal table which start 100x, isn't it??
Which site do u play on??

I remember that u post in some mtt threads so i thought u were an mtt player (even because the tp u did express were pretty good actually. Do u have multi-table tourney background by the chance?)

personal: How old are you? Are u straight or gay?? What's your favorite book (if u have one)?? or/and your favorite film??

Enough about poker Duggs now what is your favorite book and are you straight or gay? (Favorite book should give some info about this). Also hand 3 I agree about raising but yeah BTNs range does include that AKss
 
duggs

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gg man!!! A sincere good luck!!!!
so i will treat this thread as your the well asking u some random questions:

poker related: could you post your HUD setup? Then I am curious to see your overall personal stats as well; this is basically to know what's your play style? Do u define yourself as a TAG player? nit? laggish??

What do u mean with nl25 deep?? normal table which start 100x, isn't it??
Which site do u play on??

I remember that u post in some mtt threads so i thought u were an mtt player (even because the tp u did express were pretty good actually. Do u have multi-table tourney background by the chance?)

personal: How old are you? Are u straight or gay?? What's your favorite book (if u have one)?? or/and your favorite film??

I'm not at home so my HUD will have to wait, but it's a pretty generic one, I don't think I have a style per say. I've been running pretty loosely lately but I try I make my ranges a function of my opponents tendencies.

I have played mtts in the past, still do by unfortunately I'm not rolled for the stakes I want to play and I often find cash more interesting,

I'm 23 I'm from NZ, currently studying a masters in economics in norway. I'm straight, been with the same girl for just over 4 years now, scourge and anyone that sweats me probably heard her in the background at some point.

Deep means you can buy in fr more chips, so usually up to 250bb

Too many good movies and books to name favs, but some of my favourite movies are memento, usual suspects, from dawn till dusk, inglorious basterds, donnie darko, speed racer, mean creek. Favourite books are songs f ice and fire (game of thrones) lord of the rings, the last juror, deception point, 4 fires
 
duggs

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Jc ill get back to you after class
 
JCgrind

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no worries. i refrained from commenting on your specific stats since i actually have them lol as i assumed it was something youd rather not have posted all over the internet.

i was just reading some old HA;s from back when you were strictly MTT cash noob, and now youre balla deepstacked haha. thats a huge learning curve. props.

ps, youre $140 on me after that disgusting session i had the other day that cost $400 :\ so i wont be back at 25deep for a while. sigh
 
JCgrind

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as for HHs;

1. i kinda wanna know his BTN 3b stat specifically cos i think that changes ranges a ton, but tbh i dont think it makes me play the hand any differently. i would however check in-game how BTN treats donk bets, since most people raise them IP regardless of cards, i feel like a half pot donk/3b could be better if we know he raises a large % of the time when donked into, but were probably not going to get raised enough to make that our std play.

i love your flop line though. ive found that x/r over a Cbet + call, and even just a position raise over Cbet + call generates tons of FE- so much so that ive started doing it in good spots regardless of my hand str.

raise def better than flatting and then watching as the turn goes check, check.

x/c flop and leading out turn regardless of whether you make your hand or not could be very interesting tho? thoughts? i feel like youd get just as much FE when you x/c flop and pot donk turn (obv donking less if we bink), as you would x/r the flop, and vils are sitting there with what should be a fast played monster being confused and shitting themselves so much that they will only call, bc they think that if they raise, theyll only get called by better and will just end up valuetowning themselves.

2. i like it vs weak regs. but i feel like anyone whose either a) completely shit, or b) competent is going to have a hard time;
-being able to see past their own cards, and call with TPNK for infinite
-tank their timebank and level themselves into calling because they have such a hard time giving you credit for anything.

i have you on AJ/AK air, and KQhh/AKhh when we get to that river i think. its pretty twisted, but i think thats a really good run out to triple of AA too so you may get credit for that aswell.
like you say though, i like this 100 times more if youre holding that precious Kh.

the boards slightly too connected for me to believe you have sets (based on the sizing of your flop and turn bets) but yeah i think that, based on the very few stats i have on vils, this is going to be 1p hands and draws the vast majority of the time, so the river jam will get through plenty.

personally i bet flop, x/r turn, give up vs std villain, or bet flop, x/c turn, x/shove river vs aggros.

personally, i bet flop and check turn;
- if villain checks it back, i check river looking to x/r huge (if you dont make the OESD im happy to risk letting it check through)
- if villain bets turn (which imo they all do when you miss your Cbet), you x/r turn and set up shove river. <- pretty much my standard line w overpairs after 3bing OOP too.

3. is such a dream flop spot, but its definitely a bit worrying. i dont think you can just overcall on the flop though, because when you do, BTN is going to shit himself and x/f everything bar the nuts when you pile the turn, esp considering youre both 600bb deep. so ye, ray ray for sure.

@ aces2win
1. there isnt a turn, and regardless of what it is, were betting not checking.
2. most (and i mean pretty much all) villains have a Fold to Cbet OTF in 3b pot of like 30% here. so im really happy with duggs sizing, but given an aggro opponent, id probably want to go smaller if anything to induce raises (more FE when we 3b flop)
3. were 600bb deep- shoving the flop is retarded




soz tl'dr :)
 
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ChipEaterMan

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I didn't like how you played your queens in the last hand
 
JCgrind

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I didn't like how you played your queens in the last hand

ill bite, why?

i second that.

since he played the hand specifically like that, specifically against me, how can you say you dont like it? ive never seen you post here before, so i can only assume that you have no idea how i play and therefore, why duggs chose this line?

ps, duggs i hope you dont mind me hijacking like that. figured you wouldnt but yeah
 
Cafeman

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I'm guessing JC, that you bluff and thin value enough on turn and rivers that Duggs can take this line profitably? Am I close?
 
BluffMeAllIn

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IN as well, cause I figure I'l learn a bunch of stuff and all :D
 
duggs

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obv in.

on a semi relevant note, i was incredibly impressed by how you played this hand, and wanted to share it. seeing as i know how i play, i totally get why youve taken this line, but would love to hear the specific rationale behind your street by street thought process.


Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em $0.05 Ante - 6 players - View hand 2353831
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $151.43
Duggs: $125.70
UTG: $43.59
JC(MP): $45.04
CO: $16.54
BTN: $93.69

Pre Flop: ($0.65) Duggs is BB with Q
diamond.gif
Q
club.gif


JC is MP PFR: MP = 23%, and F3B = 20%

1 fold, JC raises to $1, 3 folds, Duggs raises to $3.25, JC calls $2.25

Flop: ($6.90) 2
diamond.gif
8
spade.gif
3
club.gif
(2 players)
Duggs bets $3.75, JC calls $3.75

Turn: ($14.40) J
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Duggs checks, JC bets $6.18, Duggs calls $6.18

River: ($26.76) 9
club.gif
(2 players)
Duggs checks, JC bets $20.19, Duggs calls $20.19

you are floating extremely wide v a 3bet, and my hand has really good equity v most of your range, you also have seen me value bet thinly. you have sets (22,33,88) and alot of 87 89 J10s 56s 67s AQs AQo KQ JK JQs etc hands on the flop, and you also can be floating with any backdoor draw or missed set mine of 44-77 aswell as legit value hands like 99-1010. I think given our agg dynamic that QQ+ 4bets close to 100% and JJ almost 80%+
1010/99 may 4bet occasionally but are more prone to aggressive bluff catching intentions.

on the turn the hand falls pretty squarely in the middle of my value range. I know you can bluff raise and thin value raise, however I expect alot of your weak holding and floats to just fold on this turn card a large portion of the time. Note that plenty of your hands paired up with Jx but im likely getting at least 2 streets from them regardless and they arent a big enough portion of your range to swing my plan.

I dont feel my hand fairs extremely well v raises, which is what i expect from a portion of your air hands, and although i can get pretty comfortable value on 3 streets you have also seen me c/give up in plenty of 3bet pots v other villains. so basically im not enthused about b/c or b/f in this spot and I expect you to fire close to 100% of your air v me (I think this is a mistake of your btw fwiw) given I checked and you bet calling seems much better than raising.

once we reach the river 99 89 710 J9 QT all completed to add to the sets that already beats me gives you an ok value range, however on this runout given flop float i expect you range to contain very little 710, Q10 (due to blockers and pre flop/flop). 99 is a very viable hand you could have, but I have already discounted JJ, so that leaves 89/J8/99/22/33/88 as your value range, but remember that when we got to the river you also have close to 100% of your flop floats, which also plenty whiffed including but not limited to A2s A3s 44-77 A10s (dd especially) 56 67. also note that you are capable of turning weak underpairs and 8x hands into bluffs.

my percieved range also contains a bunch of AK/AQ/1010/JQ/77/KQ/J10
I really dont expect you to think im slowplaying with any frequency but I dont expect to get much value from c/jamming river given there are enough hands i lose to that it owuld be a disaster.

given your sizing i expect this to be a bluff more often than a thin value bet from KJ/JQ trying to get looked up by some weak holding and i only need you to bluff around 30% to break even, and I think bluffs make up a much more substantial part of your range than that so I make an easy call on river

so overall given dynamics i thought b c/c c/c kept the maximum amount of bluffs/floats/thin value bets in your range and caps my percieved range enough for this to much more profitable than tripling in this spot
 
duggs

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This thread reminds me why I don't play deep, totally lost in like all of the hands you posted lol.

Im lost most of the time anyway, so really appreciate everyones input
 
duggs

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no worries. i refrained from commenting on your specific stats since i actually have them lol as i assumed it was something youd rather not have posted all over the internet.

i was just reading some old HA;s from back when you were strictly MTT cash noob, and now youre balla deepstacked haha. thats a huge learning curve. props.

ps, youre $140 on me after that disgusting session i had the other day that cost $400 :\ so i wont be back at 25deep for a while. sigh

thanks for the praise man, I obviously still have a huge way to go tho
 
duggs

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regarding the 1010 hand, if villain overcalls with AAs KKs AsK AKs QQ JJs what do we want to do, do we expect QQ/AKss to overcall rather than raise flop? if QQ raises we can be much more confident with our hand because equity wise putting it into QQ is much worse than AK, as QQ is 3x more likely and going to kill us. i think on reflection i think flop is a raise, at the time I hated every option.

what to people think the shovers range looks like?
 
duggs

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also, would love to know how you determine what to call vs a 3b? well, tbh, i more want to know how the **** you find folds ever? lol

i fold weak Ax, dominated hands like QJ/KJ etc but thats pretty much it? we both have pretty similar opening ranges but yeah, youre just finding more folds and i dont get how/when/why and this is a big, if not the main part of my game requiring serious work.

do you just like, not call 3bs OOP or something? (thats dumb, calling 3bs oop is the nuts)

EDIT: just ran a filter for called 3b OOP. am i correct in assuming that i would compare the results of this to 'hands played*3' = the amount we wouldve lost had we just folded to all 3bs while OOP?

adding a filter so results didnt include PPs surprisingly didnt show worse results either which i found interesting


it sounds obvious but their sizing and closing the action, likelihood of going multiway are all factors to consider.
how tight and how decent they are also matters since implied odds get reduced obv. basically we dont want to play a dominated range so after the flop calls we need to look at how our hand sits within our range and how our equity is. but yea people 3betting larger basically forces you to fold more, but they also tend to barrel larger with this so its still wide but hands that will flop combo equity, suited connected and pairs are all good.

I can't say for sure but likely you dont fold flop and turn enough in 3bet pots.
 
duggs

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Bump people, cafe needs to give his input, results then?
 
Cafeman

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Well, I will have to say that I am Mr 100bb poker, so my opinion will probably not be overly helpful for deepstack.

Hand 1: I think I prefer a raise simply because our 'outs' make the board lol scary for anything that is currently beating us. This way we maximise all our equity (inc. fold)?

Hand 2: We haven't got many hands on villain, but I never give people credit for being able to fold TP, so I probably give up on river a lot. Having said that, shipping it in will get everything else to fold (if he's somehow hanging around with something that does still beat us), plus occasionally a Q, so it can't be that bad either.

Hand 3: I think I just call, cos we're v deep and I am scared lol. Like, surely we fold out anything that we beat here, unless we are specifically targeting overpairs with a spade?
 
duggs

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Results,

J10cc: I got it in v 99 on the flop

KJ: I got snapped off by K10hh

TT: I think i made a mistake and called flop, turn rolled off a small spade and I c/f to his post size bet into a dry sidepot, He turned over AsA while other guy had QT holding alot of my outs.

TT is still the hand im most confused about, raising is specifically targeting AAs and KKs but im unsure if we get action from KKs and putting 600bb in v (AKss, QQ, AAs) doesnt seem good especially if AAs folds somewhere along the way, but r/f seems so dirty given the action.
 
slowhand

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you are floating extremely wide v a 3bet, and my hand has really good equity v most of your range, you also have seen me value bet thinly. you have sets (22,33,88) and alot of 87 89 J10s 56s 67s AQs AQo KQ JK JQs etc hands on the flop, and you also can be floating with any backdoor draw or missed set mine of 44-77 aswell as legit value hands like 99-1010. I think given our agg dynamic that QQ+ 4bets close to 100% and JJ almost 80%+
1010/99 may 4bet occasionally but are more prone to aggressive bluff catching intentions.

on the turn the hand falls pretty squarely in the middle of my value range. I know you can bluff raise and thin value raise, however I expect alot of your weak holding and floats to just fold on this turn card a large portion of the time. Note that plenty of your hands paired up with Jx but im likely getting at least 2 streets from them regardless and they arent a big enough portion of your range to swing my plan.

I dont feel my hand fairs extremely well v raises, which is what i expect from a portion of your air hands, and although i can get pretty comfortable value on 3 streets you have also seen me c/give up in plenty of 3bet pots v other villains. so basically im not enthused about b/c or b/f in this spot and I expect you to fire close to 100% of your air v me (I think this is a mistake of your btw fwiw) given I checked and you bet calling seems much better than raising.

once we reach the river 99 89 710 J9 QT all completed to add to the sets that already beats me gives you an ok value range, however on this runout given flop float i expect you range to contain very little 710, Q10 (due to blockers and pre flop/flop). 99 is a very viable hand you could have, but I have already discounted JJ, so that leaves 89/J8/99/22/33/88 as your value range, but remember that when we got to the river you also have close to 100% of your flop floats, which also plenty whiffed including but not limited to A2s A3s 44-77 A10s (dd especially) 56 67. also note that you are capable of turning weak underpairs and 8x hands into bluffs.

my percieved range also contains a bunch of AK/AQ/1010/JQ/77/KQ/J10
I really dont expect you to think im slowplaying with any frequency but I dont expect to get much value from c/jamming river given there are enough hands i lose to that it owuld be a disaster.

given your sizing i expect this to be a bluff more often than a thin value bet from KJ/JQ trying to get looked up by some weak holding and i only need you to bluff around 30% to break even, and I think bluffs make up a much more substantial part of your range than that so I make an easy call on river

so overall given dynamics i thought b c/c c/c kept the maximum amount of bluffs/floats/thin value bets in your range and caps my percieved range enough for this to much more profitable than tripling in this spot

Is all this stuff really going through your head while your playing the hand, or did you just put him on the bluff, then make this up after?
 
duggs

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Is all this stuff really going through your head while your playing the hand, or did you just put him on the bluff, then make this up after?

Most of it is going through my head, except not explicitly, that's what I thought ranges looked like so the only hard decisions are turn whether to bet or check and whether to call river
 
duggs

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Like my brain cliffs went something like
He has so many floats, and sets, he should fire of pretty wide here I should check turn
C/r turn seems bad.
River is huge an doesn't make sense given what my range looks like. Really hard for him to connect with this river, he should bluff too much ad even vbet a J. I call
 
slowhand

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Ok cool, made me feel very inferior not being able to write a 1000 word essay in my head before time bank ran out.
 
duggs

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A lot of that is explaining to others, I don't need to explain to kyself
 
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