*Don't Touch* Oreo's Cash Game Grind

[Figaroo2]

AA
Is that only because I didn't reraise preflop or because I folded on the end?
The guy vipip 2/37, which definitely says A LOT, especially in a 6max game. But I had the same thinking as you. He could be just deciding to open up a bit but I'm pretty sure I know how he would respond to a 3bet, he'll just fold all of his non premium hands. So I'm pretty much hoping to cooler him if 3betting is the plan here. Also, the UTG player was the maniac but even he would have most likely gotten out of the way of my 3bet as I'd only vpip 5/35 hands. The guy in the bb was new to the table.

failing to raise with AA was not good.
CO was 16/5 in 37 according to your original post, that's a couple of calls and a raise. John gave me the blast for using small stat samples so I'm passing that on to you here. Especially if there is a maniac at the table as that distorts everyone's stats over small samples.
And you failed to bet or raise the flop.
You took away his bluffs on the turn, and the flush is already there.
Your hand is under-repped and you had nearly 4-1

 

[or3o1990]

Fair enough.

 

[Figaroo2]

Fair enough.

Obviously it would be nice to check raise a maniac but fancy play with AA multi handed just isn't as high EV imo I've learned that lesson the hard way

 

[or3o1990]

Well I wasn't trying to get "fancy". My plan wasn't to check raise but to entice the CO to stay in the hand with a weaker range than I figured he would if I reraised him preflop. Just check call flop because he's almost always c betting. Bet the turn if it's another broadway or flush card to prevent a check back and free river. Or check call a blank turn. Bet the river for value. Fold because the only hand I beat that plays this way is KK.


I think it's easy to say reraise preflop because yes, we should almost always be raising AA preflop. But we shouldn't necessarily be raising it 100% of the time. There are times and places for flats.


But lets say we 3bet pre bet flop 1/2 and turn 1/2. On the river there's around 85 in the pot and we both have less than a pot sized bet effective. Are we shoving or calling? Why and what are we getting value from?

 

[Figaroo2]

Well yeah don't do the same thing all the time but the best way to get money out of AA is to raise and hope someone else wants to gii pre flop with JJ+ AK. After the flop it's usually just an overpair that's easily overplayed. Regs will often 4 bet junk in position as well (that's easily dumped to a 5 bet).
Flat if you want with weaker players it often brings along some one who will overplay weaker hands but it's fraught.

 

[or3o1990]

Well yeah don't do the same thing all the time but the best way to get money out of AA is to raise and hope someone else wants to gii pre flop with JJ+ AK

Neun, neun, neun, neun!!! I don't like this thinking one bit.. We're trying to put our opponents on ranges and anticipate what we think they'll do with those different hands and exploit them or cause them to make mistakes. We are not waiting around for coolers or playing to flop sets.

I'm not saying that I didn't butcher the hand though. That's entirely possible lol ..


No thoughts on the 3bet pre line?

 

[Mr.$t0k]

Figaroo2 rights to play with good cards to get the most out of opponents.

 

[Figaroo2]

Neun, neun, neun, neun!!! I don't like this thinking one bit.. We're trying to put our opponents on ranges and anticipate what we think they'll do with those different hands and exploit them or cause them to make mistakes. No thoughts on the 3bet pre line?

Mate you can start thinking about ranges with your AK AQ JJ, when I've got AA in a cash game I'm nearly always looking to get in as much money preflop as I can.
I will limp and min raise and flat them in tournaments especially when there are a few shoving stacks behind me and people are more prone to making big shoves but hardly ever in a cash game.
The only time I'm flatting is if I've been eye wateringly tight preflop with hardly any 3betting and don't want to give it away that I've got a premium. Or maybe if the villain folds to 3bets 80% plus over a good sample.
Even then if there are calling types behind you the last thing you want with AA is 4 handed to the flop unless they are seriously weak players.
We should be inviting in weak players but I still prefer no more than 3 handed.

On the 3 bet line, go 3/4 on the flop (as per John's Post flop betting PDF)
If you bet 3/4 on the flop and get a call you need to then seriously look at the board and opponents stats and start to think about what is calling especially on dry boards.
If you think they are calling with worse then 2/3 to 3/4 again for value and charging the draws. If an obvious draw has come in on the turn then pot control is in order.
We can continue this on skype bud, quicker than typing it all out

 

[Figaroo2]

Finished Ed Miller's "The Course" yesterday.

I've just looked for this on Amazon, cheapest you can get it in the UK is like $50 on Amazon Prime and otherwise its $100.

 

[or3o1990]

It was 50 here as well. A bit steep as far as poker books go but I find ed's books insightful and a extremely easy to read. They only ever last me a couple of days. I've got his book on hand reading coming next week. It was 50 bucks as well :|

Idk why it would cost 100 w.o prime. That seems ridiculous??

 

[TimovieMan]

I find ed's books insightful and a extremely easy to read.

I second this.

Because of Ed Miller I was a winning player from the get-go 9 years ago.

 

[duggs]

AK love it.

AA, got to 3bet pre, what you need to realise is that the nitty guy is just going to have JJ+ AK way proportionately way more often, so while i get that your worried about folds, you are correlating the wrong stats for that. As played ick but no major issues with it. I fold river. I can see the logic for betting turn but honestly i think i prefer a x/c

JJ id actually go bigger on the river, lots of random Ahx hands we can bluff here.

 

[or3o1990]

This was a fun spot. I wasn't sure what to do here. I know there are worse 10's in his range and probably some broadway diamond semi bluffs. But all of his value hands can play the exact same way. Idk if this is good or nah?


iPoker - $1 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 93.71 BB (VPIP: 17.14, PFR: 5.71, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 36)
CO: 140.17 BB (VPIP: 22.73, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 46)
Hero (BTN): 106.2 BB
SB: 335.77 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 23.08, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 41)
BB: 42.99 BB (VPIP: 36.84, PFR: 26.32, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 40)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T♠ A♥

fold, CO raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 6 BB

Flop: (19.5 BB, 2 players) 2♠ T♦ 8♥
CO checks, Hero bets 10.75 BB, CO calls 10.75 BB

Turn: (41 BB, 2 players) 5♦
CO checks, Hero bets 21.5 BB, CO raises to 120.42 BB, fold

CO wins 180.92 BB

 

[Figaroo2]

Yep that turn shove makes absolutely zero sense to me. I suppose it could be a semi bluff shove with over card diamonds. Shoving a value hand like a set seems a total waste. It's hardly a wet board. Take a note and see if he does it against anyone else.

 

[BenjiHustle]

I'm fairly certain his turn shove was either double draw semi-bluff with something like a Jd9d (weird to raise-call PF with) or a set. I think you avoided a set. Good fold imo.

Also, I don't 3-bet this PF, but I understand your inclination to do so.

 

[IPlay]

Can't we just check back turn? How often are we getting 3 streets of value from a worse hand? I think villain is going to fold a lot of 77/99/Tx to a double barrel that we might be able to get value from on decent rivers if we check back.

 

[or3o1990]

I'm fairly certain his turn shove was either double draw semi-bluff with something like a Jd9d (weird to raise-call PF with) or a set. I think you avoided a set. Good fold imo.

Also, I don't 3-bet this PF, but I understand your inclination to do so.

You would flat then call flop and turn? Would you fold to a river bet?

Can't we just check back turn? How often are we getting 3 streets of value from a worse hand? I think villain is going to fold a lot of 77/99/Tx to a double barrel that we might be able to get value from on decent rivers if we check back.

I thought I was betting for value vs worse 10's and diamonds. But I didn't think I was going to get 3 streets. I was planning to check back river tbh.



So I played some live last night at the kennel club in Sarasota and at the Hard Rock in Tampa. Just played 1/2. The games were super dee duperdee soft lol. At the kennel club people were putting in 30bb's blind some hands. Limp shoving 10 8o and all sorts of other junk. Getting folds wasn't easy so I played kind of tight. Lost a two flips for 150bb or so both ak vs jj. Lost both ways all in pre. Managed to squeeze out a few bb's by the end of the night though and had a really good time.

Quesiton though!! These players are button straddling and all over the table straddling. Can anyone give me some input as to how I can adjust for this from different positions? Mind you I don't think stealing is the best idea, not much folding going on here at 1/2.. Thanks!

 

[IPlay]

When they button straddle just play extremely tight from SB and BB. I'm talking about open folding AQo. It sucks but button straddles are annoying when you are in the blinds. Actually they are just pretty annoying in general. I played in Daytona Beach for a year and button straddles were really an annoyance. Especially when it is a really fishy table and you can't just check your BB with 98s. Why did you go from Sarasota to Tampa in one night? Isn't that like a 3-5 hour drive? You should of just went to Tampa, I hear they don't have last call and people can drink all night. I never made it out there myself but always wanted too. The Daytona room was just soo juicy and I lived 10 minutes away so driving 3 hours to Tampa just seemed so meh. Florida 1/2 games are usually incredibly juicy and you can just nut peddle and churn profits.

With the AT hand I don't mind betting turn in a single raised pot but in a 3 bet pot I think we need to pot control turn and we shouldn't be too worried about villain hitting runner runner diamonds and if he does we just have to call a single bet on river anyway. If we bet and he has some 7d6d hand that he decides to bluff raise with it kind of sucks. Either way I do like your line if you planned on checking/back river but I still think I prefer to just check the turn since it is a 3 bet pot and the flop was super dry. Also if we check back turn and he checks river we can bet and get value from curious under pairs such as 99/77/J10s. FWIW I think you avoided a set and when you double barreled he put you on an over pair thinking you were not folding. Lucky for you he ran into what should be the absolute bottom of your value betting range.

 

[or3o1990]

Thanks for the tips. That's kind of what I was doing because I didn't know what else to do😝. It's probably worth flatting pocket pairs if there's not too much preflop raising going on.

I went with a buddy who normally plays at the kennel club and he drove. So after they closed at 2am he wanted to go and I really couldn't say no. It's not that far, more like and hour and a half but it's definitely the nicest card room I've ever been in for sure! I'll be going again soon I hope.

Thanks for the breakdown. That all makes sense to me. The pot was already plenty big haha. But in a single raised pot I'm always firing that turn 😊

 

[BenjiHustle]

I would flat-bet-bet/fold (or check/fold turn).

 

[or3o1990]

That may have been the better line. I'm still more comfortable 3betting than flatting in position.


Been playing a bunch live lately. I'm doing pretty well. Unfortunately I don't have anything notable to say about it all. The games are so soft it's ridiculous. One thing I need to be working on is manipulating spr's. Because the players are sooo sticky when I iso in position I end up with these gnarly 4-6 way pots where I can't do much of anything lol.

Question for you all. When playing live how important is it to be friendly? My table talk sucks because everyone mostly wants to talk poker and they don't know what tf they're talking about so I just avoid those convos because I don't want to out myself as a thinking player. I don't imagine it matters too much at 1/2 because there are so many games but is This something I should be working on?

 

[IPlay]

Don't talk strat but being friendly is hugely +EV

It feels good when you leave a table because it sucks and you can talk the one fish there to come to your new table. Or when you come in the room and see fish and they invite you to your table etc... Then when you are good the regs notice and avoid you and it makes for some awesome +EV. Other regs would always hate on my in Daytona because I was always at the best table and it was for a reason.

 

[Aces2w1n]

AT turn bet appear weak? or we just assume hes got qq or jj

i cancel out sets in his range... flush draws there... i cant see too many hands he could have that he beats us with

 

[or3o1990]

Don't talk strat but being friendly is hugely +EV

It feels good when you leave a table because it sucks and you can talk the one fish there to come to your new table. Or when you come in the room and see fish and they invite you to your table etc... Then when you are good the regs notice and avoid you and it makes for some awesome +EV. Other regs would always hate on my in Daytona because I was always at the best table and it was for a reason.

I guess I had to ask because a few people have mentioned already that I don't talk all that much. Which isn't totally true because I do bs with people and have had good convo's that I've enjoyed since I've been playing there. But it kind of adds to my tighter image, which I think is ok. I'm a very polite person most times but I do try to stay out of the "how could they have done x, I would have done y" convo's that are all too prevalent at every table.

AT turn bet appear weak? or we just assume hes got qq or jj

i cancel out sets in his range... flush draws there... i cant see too many hands he could have that he beats us with

I agree it's hard to put him on a huge number of hands that have me beat. I see him having worse 10's sometimes but I'm not sure all of them are c/r the turn. Few BD flush draws and I'd still include sets and overs.

 

[xdeucesx]

Being friendly is v important imo. Never talk strat, but just talk about sports or shoot the shit. You get a bad rep if you're the young/internet guy who just sits in his hoodie and doesn't say anything.