Bluff in cash games - a must or just an option?

vinnie

vinnie

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To estimate expected value of a bluff you need to know how often your opps fold to a bet at a given street, don't you? Thus it makes sense to avoid bluff unless you know your opps fit this option.

No, you should have a good feel for it based on watching him play, how loose he is, his range, and the flop texture. You will never know exactly how often a player will fold at that specific moment, with his specific holding, and against you. Maybe he would call against another player, but knows you will probably fire again and he won't get a cheap showdown. Maybe he will call more against you than another player because he sees you bet a lot and he wants to play sheriff. More importantly, you should be watching how others play and how they respond to bets on each street. Poker is a game of incomplete information. You have to use what you know and sometimes you might just have to take a risk. Generally, you should have a good feel for how often a player is folding on certain flops, turns, and rivers -- even if you have never played against that person before -- because you've played against many similar players and know how most of them react.

You also can sit around and run the math. If you put them on a range, you can figure out how many of their hands hit certain flops. You can do this by hand or with a tool like Flopzilla (I think this is the correct App, I haven't used it in a while). You can then try and determine what sorts of hands they continue with: say, "two overcards, flush draws, any straight draw, any pair or better, any Ace with a kicker higher than the bottom card on the flop" [this is pretty much what a lot of the really sticky players call with, right here].

Now, based on their starting hands, the flop texture, and your assumption/prediction of what they continue with, you will know how much of their range is folding to a bluff on the flop. The wider they call preflop, the more of their range they fold on the flop. Generally, you have a lot more fold equity here than you might assume. You might not be a favorite (50%+) to get a fold, but it's significant. Then work the same math for the turn card, assuming they may call a bit tighter, "two overcards, flush draws, 8 card straight draws, any pair" and see how much of their continuing range can call another bet. What doesn't call is your fold equity in the hand on the turn.

The river is a bit tougher. You have the whole board now. Obviously, all the draws that make it to the river fold, but you don't bluff if you have hands that beat a busted draw. How does their "calling range" on the river compare to the strength of your hand along with how much of their total range on the river can they call? If you have nothing, but most of their range should be weak and fold, you might venture a bluff. You might even go for a bluff if you can't beat their busted draws, and you expect a significant chunk of their range is busted draws. You can size your bet to make it +EV based on the size of the pot and your range estimation.

You won't have time to do that in the middle of a hand, but you can go back and look at hands afterwards and see. You should also try and develop ranges for players, as you play, and pay attention to what they showdown. Does it fit into the range you expected? The more you do that, the better you get at it. As you get better at putting someone on an expected range, you get better at knowing how much of that range folds.

tl;dr: I'll say it again. If you're not bluffing in spots that would be +EV--either because you don't recognize them or you're worried about getting called--you are making a mistake. You can survive making tons of mistakes at the micros, and even show a profit making tons of mistakes because you could still be making fewer mistakes than your opponents. This doesn't mean that it isn't a mistake.

No one is perfect at recognizing all the spots that are +EV to bluff. This is more along the line of Sklansky's fundamental theory of poker, except with knowing an opponent's specific range instead of his specific hand. If you knew exactly what cards an opponent might be playing in a spot and how many would call, how many would fold, and how many would raise... would you make a different decision than the one you did? If so, then you've made a mistake according to this idea.
 
vinnie

vinnie

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I realize that my example above is pretty vague. Let's play around a little with a specific hand. Say you open on the button with Kh9s and the big blind calls you with a 42% range.
  • 22+ (any pair)
  • A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, 10-7s+, 97s+, 87s (all suited aces and kings, most suited queens, suited jacks with a 7 or higher, and any other suited cards where the smaller card is at least a 7 -- there might even be more suited crap in some ranges)
  • A2o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, 10-8o+ (all aces, all kings with a kicker 7 or higher, all queens with a kicker of 8 or higher, etc.)
There are 566 combinations that call preflop (506 if you remove our cards from that range)

Say the board comes Qh - 7s - 6s... how much of their range can continue assuming my stuff above.
  • 22+, KQs, KQo, Q4s+, K7o+, Q8o+, J7s, 10-7s, 97s, 87s (any pair or better)
  • AKs, AKo (two over cards)
  • A6s+, A6o+ (any ace higher than the lowest card on the board... and pairs in this case)
  • 10-9, 98s (straight draws)
  • All suited combos in spades
That is 431 combinations and 332 combinations after you account for the cards we know (our hand and the flop). Of the 506 combinations the big blind takes to the flop, we expect them to continue with only 311 combinations. They'll have a hand to continue about 66% of the time. Meaning, we have about 34% fold equity against this range of hands and this continuation pattern.

If we bet around half the pot, a standard c-bet, we show a profit. Just barely, against this very wide range. Even if we get called. We still have 28.4% equity against that range and we could hit a King on the turn, which gives us over 74% equity against it. Basically, we're not dead even if we get called.

The same math works for the turn. I don't have flopzilla anymore, so I am doing these by hand, and it's not that hard. You don't need to go street by street, but it does help. The really good players can end up with fairly narrow ranges by the river, and thus they can make better decisions. Against the loose players ($1/$2 live and <$0.25NL online) the ranges will have to remain pretty wide because the players continue with more hands. Just remember, if a passive player wakes up at the end and bets representing part of his range that he *should* have folded on a previous street, it's almost never a bluff. Sometimes, they just decide to take a stand with a random hand. That doesn't make bluffing a mistake.

Basically, a c-bet is rarely wrong against loose-passive players when heads up and in position. Against 2 or more people, it becomes less ideal, because you'll succeed less often. Once you get called on the flop, you just try and figure out the range of hands that call there and how many of them can continue on the turn. It is a general truism that ranges get narrower on each street (assuming there is any action), and that narrowing represents your fold equity.

Another thing to note is that getting worse hands to fold improves our equity in the pot. A hand like Jack-10 suited (in hearts, clubs, or diamonds) has 24.3% equity in the pot against our hand. When they fold it without a fight, we get more of the pot than we deserved. Technically, for a 1/2 pot c-bet, they should call with that hand (if they knew what we had and that there would be no more action until the river). We are causing them to make a mistake.

Edit: If the 10 of spades comes on the turn (which is probably the worst possible card), they still end up with only 208 of the 332 combinations from the flop having a pair or better. Meaning they fold the turn around 37% of the time. Which could make it sensible to fire again, if they check. Our showdown equity even improves on this card, though it misses us and hits a lot of their range. And, this is a pretty wet and bad board. I probably wouldn't be that aggressive and wouldn't be firing this heavy on it. I picked it because it's a reasonable board to not bluff at. Most boards are a lot drier and less coordinated than this one. People miss the board a lot of the time, and they don't call with 100% of their pre-flop range (unless they are super-special).
 
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erlanditas

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You would be a fish player if you didnt bluff, Its not possible to not bluff, start learning poker, you can start from watching youtube videos from pros.
 
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Sidetracked

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I think you have to bluff, or you become too easy to play against. A good place to start is bluffing with equity.

Backdoor draws on the flop can present opportunities to bluff and follow through with a good turn card for example.
 
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Broon1234

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It's not that important especially at low levels. Players will make enough mistakes on their own, often calling too often. When players improve and fold more, you will have to force them to make more mistakes by folding when they shouldn't.
 
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LalaBliss

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If you are able to read cards you should bluff. You need to figure out what the opponent has in their pocket to make sure that they don't call your bluff. People in cash games play more tight and if you are a good bluffer you can earn a lot. Play safe and good luck! :)
 
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Fr0Man

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In cash games with deep stacks it is possible to play super tight and play profitably without bluffing, especially in lower stakes with bad players. But i think you can always be MORE profitable by stealing blinds and picking good spots. If that is bluffing, then you should bluff.
 
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jwlaw35

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I try not to bluff.. for me its an expensive habit.. people will be calling with lowest pair lol its crazy
 
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freestocks

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Good question. I think you can make money without bluffing.
 
Robert Krawczak

Robert Krawczak

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Like most people i also think you can win by watching other players and just play your game ;)
 
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MaxMx2

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Vinnie, I've re-read both your posts twice. Now my understanding of a bluff is different. Now I consider it as the necessary and highly efficient tool. Also I realized why I was so reluctant to bluff and why I wasn't enough succesful in it. One of the most important lessons for me here is that bluff can be substantiated with math, this is exactly what I was looking for. And of course I should focus on improving my skills of putting opps on the range and narrowing it from street to street. This is the way to recognize good spots for bluffing and it will certainly improve other parts of my play.
I am still digesting the information you provided and I'm really glad you posted here. Thank you!
 
vinnie

vinnie

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The math is a little messed up in the second example, because I was doing it by hand and missed a couple combinations. But, the general idea is correct. I would also recommend reading "The Theory of Poker" by Sklansky. In chapter 19 (if I recall correctly--which I should I looked it up last night) he discusses the game theory and the math of bluffing. He creates a very simple example (with low-ball draw), and shows you how a hand that is a mathematical dog < 43% odds to improve to win, will be the money winner if you include the right amount of bluffs on the end. It will be the winner no matter what decision your opponent makes. They could always fold or always call, but you'll show a profit in the end.

That's the game theory part. Which proves that bluffing can turn a losing hand into a winning one, as well as gets towards the idea that there is an ideal ratio of bluffs to value bets that your play should approach. At the micros, when people call too often, you'll have fewer bluffs and more value bets, but you still will have some bluffs (except against the absolute sheriffs who will call down with J-high just to make sure you weren't bluffing with 10-high). Also, don't rule out the "super-nits" at the micros who don't want to call a big bet without the nuts. Against those people, you should be bluffing a larger range.

I think the chapter before gets into the more general "what is bluffing, why bluff, when to bluff, etc." idea. The book mostly talks about limit poker, but the same ideas apply. Actually, the same ideas must apply to the micros because you are much more likely to be called in limit poker, where you might bet $4 into a $50 pot. Those bets get snapped off all the time, but it's still right to bluff knowing you'll get called very often.

Instead of rereading my wall of text, I'd recommend that book ("The Theory of Poker" by David Skansky). I bought a paper copy, and value it, but you could probably google that book title and find the PDF pretty easily. If you enjoy the chapters on bluffing, then maybe purchase it to support the author. There's a lot of value there and it provides a foundation for understanding the game.
 
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Lance Webster

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A must bluff is part of poker
 
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GWU73

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It is not necessary to bluff at low stakes, and is usually a bad idea.
 
dragunovich

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i think the bluff is very important there
 
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mauroc711

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Bluff is a very important tool in tournaments, specially in advanced stages, but in cash game, bluff are ussually a machine of lose money. You can see a lose maniac in tournaments and be winner, but, in my opinion you wont win in cash game abusing the bluff.
 
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AcesDJD

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I guess it depends on what you consider a bluff to be. Is continuation betting (betting on the flop when you raised but didn't hit the flop) bluffing? Your ace high or K high or whatever you raised with may still be the best hand. Is semi bluffing (betting when you have a straight or flush draw) bluffing? If you would say yes to the above, than I would say it is absolutely necessary to be a winning player long-term.

I don't think it is necessary to raise someone with nothing preflop to get them to muck their hand or to make a big river bet when you missed your draw. I would consider these actions pure bluffs, and I think you can beat 1/2 1/3 without doing them, mainly because in most casinos you're always going to be having different players coming in and out. If you have a bunch of regs at your casino, they'll probably stop calling you if you never ever bluff. But you don't need to do it much, you just need to do it enough to activate fishes' calling instincts.
 
partz

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A good hud is better than bluf in cash games, but ofc if u are goot at both strategies I think its best that way to bluff the bluffers especially and your play be based on facts (hud) infos and your intuition - skill
 
Space Ghost

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Is it possible to play cash profirably without bluff?
Yes. There are some venues where you simply should NOT bluff, because they're just going to call anyway.

Here's something I heard a million times when first studying poker online:
Don't bluff the micros! (Live 1/2 plays similarly to, if not worse than, the micros.)

Fish play their own hands - they're just not thinking about what you have if they have tptk. Just value bet them into oblivion when you have it. That's how you're going to make your money.
 
Dorugremon

Dorugremon

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Yes. There are some venues where you simply should NOT bluff, because they're just going to call anyway.

Here's something I heard a million times when first studying poker online:
Don't bluff the micros! (Live 1/2 plays similarly to, if not worse than, the micros.)

Fish play their own hands - they're just not thinking about what you have if they have tptk. Just value bet them into oblivion when you have it. That's how you're going to make your money.

I disagree. The bluff is a play like any other: use it against the right opponents and situations. Granted, there are very few players at the micros against whom I'd ever consider a 3-barrel (I've seen two -- maybe three -- who can Level-2 where a 3-barrel would be successful).

Fish do play "solitaire", but there are also a helluvalot of micro players who're playing FoF. Not bluffing these types is a crime, AFAIC. Get a table full of FoFs, and I'll come in just to get a chance to bluff them out with ATC. Of course, you get called, it's time to shut 'er down unless you bink.

I've played lots of micro games where the lion's share of the winnings was pure theft.
 
Bodomovac

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If you know that the player you are playing agains doesn't have a great hand and is a passive player you can pull off a bluff, but once you get read, that's a bad position for you.
 
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donkcentralFF

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Depends on the stakes the higher the level the more that bluffing comes into play.. On the micro level bluffing will get you in trouble more often than not.
 
ARMYNAC

ARMYNAC

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I Say bluff every 30 minutes AND SHOW on a loose table - on a tight table... bluffing alot should occur. (Thats just my opinion)

I Like to get paid on made hands - so a good strong bluff every half hour will help you out.
 
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Stihlhere

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I fully believe the best players in all facets of the game have extremely good situational awareness because I'm pretty sure poke is a situational game
 
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kevinmarkus

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I think I've successfully bluffed people 20-30% of the time that I attempted it. I have been playing much better since I have aborted that weapon from my artillery. The less you bluff, the more useful of a tool it becomes. You must earn the table's respect before you bluff.
 
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