***April Cash Game Thread***

[F Paulsson]

Yeah, but even then it's a conditional thing. It's possible that I misunderstood him, but I'm pretty sure he meant it was decidedly a universal game mechanic.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

All the good players give the standard "you only need 30 buy ins to play a level" advice, and then play with 50+ buy ins themselves. I have yet to encounter a good player who plays with less than 40 on a regular basis. Almost all good regs are bankroll nits.

BRM depends on the edge you have over your opponents. If you had to rebuild a roll starting at 10nl, you would certainly use very aggressive BRM at the lowest stakes, and get more conservative as you get closer to your normal stake.

Regs typically don't have a huge edge over their regular stake, or else they'd move up. Since they have an edge but not a huge one, they want loads of buy-ins.

This may be super-arrogant of me, but I'm pretty sure FF is wrong about opening to 4x from the SB.

I guess it means he is not stealing too much from SB. Which makes sense if he is playing against good players mostly, who should punish you severely when you steal too much oop.

 

[eNTy]

It may be that he assumes that the BB plays back very light.

So even thorough his range is wide, he assumes that it is stronger then the BB range and he lacks position, therefore he makes what looks like an UTG raise and in many ways that's what it is.

it doesnt look like an utg raise, it looks like a sb steal, out of position with a weak range.
unless what belgo thinks is true, that he steals less and thus has a stronger range

 

[F Paulsson]

If his SB open-range is similar to what he has UTG (guessing 15-20%) then I think it's fine. I just remembered him saying something about wanting a lower SPR when OOP, and that, to me, is not self-evidently a good thing.

 

[WVHillbilly]

If his SB open-range is similar to what he has UTG (guessing 15-20%) then I think it's fine. I just remembered him saying something about wanting a lower SPR when OOP, and that, to me, is not self-evidently a good thing.

I agree unless he meant wanting a lower SPR when OOP with a strong range.

Opening wide to 4x from the SB just doesn't seem very profitable.

What do you think about doing the opposite and raising 2x or 2.5x from the SB?

 

[F Paulsson]

I agree unless he meant wanting a lower SPR when OOP with a strong range.

Opening wide to 4x from the SB just doesn't seem very profitable.

What do you think about doing the opposite and raising 2x or 2.5x from the SB?

I usually 3x it, mostly because I think I get more folds that way. Minraising tends to induce calls, or at least it feels like that. Obviously we don't have to be successful very often when we minraise, so perhaps I'm fooling myself into thinking the extra folds I get are worth it. I wish I could get more data some easy, reliable way about these things.

 

[WVHillbilly]

I usually 3x it, mostly because I think I get more folds that way. Minraising tends to induce calls, or at least it feels like that. Obviously we don't have to be successful very often when we minraise, so perhaps I'm fooling myself into thinking the extra folds I get are worth it. I wish I could get more data some easy, reliable way about these things.

I 3x from the SB as well (2.5x from the BTN) but I'm not sure that a smaller raise from the SB wouldn't work just as well and may be better. We are going to get more calls but people still going to be playing a lot of fit/fold postflop when we cbet (which we get to do more cheaply).

Also I think there are a lot of people playing too many tables who are still going to be auto-folding the same hands to a min raise that they were to a 3x open.

I don't know I may give it a go to see how it works out.

 

[PattyR]

That last hand you were sat with a 200bb stack, if i was taking a shot with 25BI's you wouldnt see me sat with 2/5's of my shot on one table, i know there's not many larger stacks on that table but just having the $37 stack around would make me wanna up n leave, like when your moving up losing 2.5 times what you'd usually stack off with is bad enough, losing 5 times what you'd usually stack off with?? I think i'd have a breakdown lol

fwiw i run terribad when i move up too and my next shot is def gonna be at 35BI's to give myself a 10BI shot, just to give me a chance to be at the limit for longer and try and ride out the run bad, sounds like you take 5BI shots, maybe you should increase the amount your willing to lose at a new limit??

yea i had 37 but came to the table with 25. Yea i think im gonna wait til i at least have 35 BI...but i dont know i got some run good last night playin 10NL. Maybe i should play 10NL on the new 250BB tables on pstars

 

[NineLions]

I watched a FoxwoodFiends video at DC when they had their free video promo last week. This may be super-arrogant of me, but I'm pretty sure FF is wrong about opening to 4x from the SB. I agree with opening to 4x UTG, and I agree with him that you can open to 2 or 2.5x on the button, but I disagree that position is the sole determining factor of what your opening size should be. The reason it's good to open large UTG is that we are both out of position and have a strong range. Similarly, we can get away with opening small on the button because while our range is weak, we're in position. But "out of position" in the small blind does not mean that opening to 4x is a good idea if our range is really wide (which it's likely to be). Or perhaps he just doesn't steal much from the SB, in which case I agree that opening large is OK.

The reason here is that the vast majority of hands I open in the SB are going to be chiefly for the purpose of stealing. I want my opponent to fold, and I want to lose the minimum when he doesn't. I don't think my fold equity is significantly higher - at least not enough so - to make opening to 4x instead of 3x the right play. Putting more money into the pot out of position with a wide range than I have to just doesn't grok with me.

I raise 4x from the SB, mostly based on the "out of position" argument and from listening to, I think it might have been TubaSteve, arguing the same thing.

How does this compare to making 3 bets larger from the blinds verses late position raises? Is the logic the same, mostly the same, or different?

 

[WVHillbilly]

I raise 4x from the SB, mostly based on the "out of position" argument and from listening to, I think it might have been TubaSteve, arguing the same thing.

How does this compare to making 3 bets larger from the blinds verses late position raises? Is the logic the same, mostly the same, or different?

I'd say they are completely different because you're 3betting range from the blinds should be relatively small compared to your SB opening range.

 

[F Paulsson]

I raise 4x from the SB, mostly based on the "out of position" argument and from listening to, I think it might have been TubaSteve, arguing the same thing.

How does this compare to making 3 bets larger from the blinds verses late position raises? Is the logic the same, mostly the same, or different?

That's a good question. I do make my 3bets larger OOP in the blinds than on the button. On the other hand, my range for 3-betting from the blinds is much more heavily skewed towards value than my opening range from the SB, so the situations aren't entirely analogous in my case. But I need to think about this a little more.

 

[Jagsti]

FWIW, along with loosening up in general, I have been opening from the sb 3.5x bb, when usually I'd be like 3x from all positions and i'm only losing like 3ptbb from the sb. Pretty sure before this adjustment I was losing a helluva lot more than that.

 

[absoluthamm]

What do you guys think? Tanked for a little bit, but the guy raising was a 5/2 over about 75 hands and the EP caller was a 10/0. I just see one of them having AA here. If I would have been suited then it would have been an easier call, but I just felt like I was beaten.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.05(BB) Full Tilt
SB ($5)
BB ($9.62)
UTG ($3.06)
UTG+1 ($4.64)
UTG+2 ($6.04)
MP1 ($4.36)
CO ($2.47)
Hero ($5.05)

Dealt to Hero K:club: A:heart:

UTG calls $0.05, fold, UTG+2 raises to $0.22, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold

UTG+2 wins $0.17

Edit: This HH is boring as hell to look at... After looking at all of the folds, I think I should have raised, just couldn't get myself to go against my gut.

 

[S93]

Hate it.
If im not mistaking where folding AK on the BTN vs a nit over a meaningless sample?
He is gonna have alot more then AA and seeing as we know he is tight and are IP we can play pretty easily against him postflop.
Just call since 3betting here against a nit is probably bad but calling allows us to play IP vs a wider range(and I can almost gurantee he is wider then 2%).

 

[NineLions]

How does this compare to making 3 bets larger from the blinds verses late position raises? Is the logic the same, mostly the same, or different?

I'd say they are completely different because you're 3betting range from the blinds should be relatively small compared to your SB opening range.

So it's worthwhile to make the raise larger to combat being OOP, because your frequency is lower, and your range is stronger?

 

[absoluthamm]

Yea, like I said, I didn't like my play, if played again I would have just called and used my position to my advantage. If just calling IP and EP calls as well, any A or K coming on the board could easily already have my hand beaten if having one of the two hands I was worrying about. Granted a 5/2 could easily be playing something like 88-99, AJs+, KQs, AKo as well. I think for the most part it was just having both of them involved so far was the deciding factor...had it been only one it would have been an easier play in my mind.

 

[S93]

Yea, like I said, I didn't like my play, if played again I would have just called and used my position to my advantage. If just calling IP and EP calls as well, any A or K coming on the board could easily already have my hand beaten if having one of the two hands I was worrying about. Granted a 5/2 could easily be playing something like 88-99, AJs+, KQs, AKo as well. I think for the most part it was just having both of them involved so far was the deciding factor...had it been only one it would have been an easier play in my mind.

The fact that he is a 5/2 over 75hands doesnt really mean much.
Could just mean he is running bad on this table so asuming he is exactly 5/2 over that sample isnt something u should do imo.
The fact u have AK means there are only 3combos of AA and 3 of KK where as there a are tone of combos of AQs/AQo/JJ/QQ/TT/AJs ect.

 

[absoluthamm]

yea, I know the sample size means nothing, but it's all I had to work with, so having 75 hands looking at VPIP and PFR is better than having 0 hands. In hindsight, I should've just called and played it out from there. Next time

 

[S93]

yea, I know the sample size means nothing, but it's all I had to work with, so having 75 hands looking at VPIP and PFR is better than having 0 hands. In hindsight, I should've just called and played it out from there. Next time

Basicly what im trying to say is dont put absolute faith into these numbers when the sample is small.
There obvs good to have but u should base your decision on more then just "oh he is 5/2 over 75 hands, I better fold".

 

[Dwilius]

yep, I have a bad habit of putting too much stock in small samples myself. Someone playing 18/15 longterm could easily be 33/30 or 9/7 over 50 hands or so using the exact same opening requirements per position because of how cards were dealt...and other table factors. 5/2 is obv. very likely some kind of nit, but can't be sure to what extent.

 

[absoluthamm]

I agree with you both. My entire reasoning wasn't just based on that small sample on the guy. It was also on the other player who just flat called, who I had ~650 hands on(also a smallish sample, I know) and most of it was just a weird feeling(don't know if it was that is took him a long time to make the bet or what). There have definitely been hundreds of times in the past where I have just looked at the person's stats and forgot to see the sample of hands before taking the stats into consideration...at the same time, there have been hundreds of times where it has been vice versa when I have completely disregarded stats just because I have noticed that the sample is way too small(very common with any 3Bet stats and such).

Like D said, he's obviously been very nitty tonight, even if only over the course of an hour or so, but the reasoning behind that nittiness is unknown over the small sample(just bad cards or really does only play 5% of hands...)

 

[c9h13no3]

I made ~300 last month playing poker, and I just found out the car I drive has a Kelley Blue Book value of $300. Nice.

 

[Jurn8]

tomorrow is rakeback Friday and I am not withdrawing it for the first time in like 2 years! grow biggie grow!

 

[JimmyBrizzy]

I made ~300 last month playing poker, and I just found out the car I drive has a Kelley Blue Book value of $300. Nice.

now you could have 2 of them

 

[F Paulsson]

Looking at your day totals and briefly thinking "wow, I played a lot more hands today than I thought I had" and then realizing that that's the winnings, not the hand tally - is pretty cool.