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WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
Allow me to summarize:
1) EZ Call
2) EZ fold - AK is a "drawing" hand
3) You're wrong
4) No, you're wrong
5) I play in Vegas and know special plays
6) Lol, special plays
7) I fold AJ OTB in unopened pots
8) You bad bro!
9) How'd this get to 3 pages
10) Summary
Che
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Look, This AJ concept if by the book, so to speak, from David Sklansky, another con man, but this time I have to agree with him on the AJ theory. I know David, he's my neighbor. He's a nice and smart math :deal: dude but still a con. :angel:
However, the AJ is AJ and together with his AT, KJ, JT and some other beauties are public toilet paper. There's no debate about any merits whatsoever. Now, what is the difference between AK or AT and piece of used newspaper from the 711 dumpster that a homeless dude use as his blanket? There is no difference. The only merit people see some phantom value is in their mind because AJ is ranked up a notch above AT and two steps up above A9 ..., LOL...:bird::banghead:
BentleyBoy
Legend
Loyaler
So! Curious or not, if you did take time to read through the three pages, then you may understand why some players do not find this an easy situation..... hence the thread! The place is for people to learn...and yes, as one player has said, it can get very confusing!
As for the conversation between Che and Marginal..... guys... you both have views on how poker should be played. Both have very valuable views..... but from different perspectives. Just because one of you doesn't agree with the other, it doesn't mean you are right or the other is wrong..... it is about personal perception..... and invariably preference.
The whole thread leads us to see that a simple enough question about whether or not to play a hand in a particular situation is not as simple as many novices, and experienced players may think. The opinion is generally split throughout the thread. This was the concept of the thread. No one is right and no one is wrong..... they are playing the situation how they feel is the correct way for them....... . I think the only problem we have is when we get down to the pure math of it all...... and as always, when we start talking statistics, well, statistics rank alongside fairy tales and lies and can of course be made to say whatever you want them to say.
Regardless of personal views of another persons opinion, I really did not intend for this thread to become degenerate in terms of slating another persons views or opinion.... it is such a shame that we cannot politely discuss the views of others. This is not the encyclopaedia of all things perfect in the imperfect world of poker, it is a forum where people are able to share their thoughts and views. There will always be more than one vision of what is the right thing to do. This is why poker is such a fantastic game and why the views of others should not be denigrated but considered, then used or dismissed.
I would like to thank everyone for their contribution to this thread and hope it opens up many people's eyes to the fact that poker isn't all about your hole cards....... it's about far more important stuff that you really should consider!
BentleyBoy
Figaroo2
Legend
Bronze Level
Come into this late but I call, the villain could easily just be tilted and be superwide. I've sat in cash games where tilted guys just shove 100bb all in pre hand after hand.
Good players just don't 3bet jam 100bb, if he has aces then what a terrible way to play them.
And sorry Che's views are just too nitty for me. Yeah you can just sit there waiting to hit the nuts and get paid by Vegas tourists but you win money in this game by eeking out and taking every little edge, if you aren't doing a basic winning play like raising limpers and taking that dead money you aren't going to win as much as you could/should be.
In fact I will post my stats for raising limpers with AJos ATos and A9os in my thread, just for Vegas pro Che.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...garoo2-poker-journey-257038/post-3638195.html
Good players just don't 3bet jam 100bb, if he has aces then what a terrible way to play them.
And sorry Che's views are just too nitty for me. Yeah you can just sit there waiting to hit the nuts and get paid by Vegas tourists but you win money in this game by eeking out and taking every little edge, if you aren't doing a basic winning play like raising limpers and taking that dead money you aren't going to win as much as you could/should be.
In fact I will post my stats for raising limpers with AJos ATos and A9os in my thread, just for Vegas pro Che.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...garoo2-poker-journey-257038/post-3638195.html
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braveslice
Pull-ups!
Silver Level
It’s important to note that for me micro online poker player this is easy call, but I would imagine that with real money on the table the behavior of tourist player change compared to online counterpart, if he is not drunk or something.
Also it seems Che is playing with different audience than Marginal (live).
:hahaha:
Also it seems Che is playing with different audience than Marginal (live).
:hahaha:
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Figaroo2
Legend
Bronze Level
Why does that matter?
live players still limp/fold and call with a lot worse hands that AJ. He has his own nitty low variance style that works for him and is advising weaker players in here to play in the same manner.
M
Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
And I don't subscribe to the thought that there are more than 1 way to play in this instance. If you are playing 11.5% of hands total, you've are being way too tight. That's not even up for debate. Ask any winning player about it.
B
braveslice
Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Oh but the topic was about AK not AJ.
This is all speculation as I don’t play live: If we think Che’s typical fish at NL3 is some teacher who decides to try poker, he probably has that one buy in to play, for him it’s big money. Then again Marginal's typical fish at NL10 is some millionaire who doesn’t really care about money, but more about excitement.
Che
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Aaaarghh! ..., I still love you
Sure, Marginal, and the theory I put out there has nothing at all to do with how you play your game in your situations with your AJ. (oh, by the way, I play AJs every time too, ... no problem ..). My theory it's actually about TAG versus LAG more than anything else. A lot of LAGs believe they win more $$ than TAGs when they are simply splashing around more and give themselves the illusion of winning more. They also lose more.
In live, LLNL games, you win money by doubling up or busting people. Anything else makes you fall victim to the rake. You have a chance to play a big pot approximative three times per hour. You flop a set, have a pair plus a nut flush draw, hit your straight. Most of these times a big pot does not pan out. It takes two hands to get paid in a big pot. Once every other hour, you play a big pot. You are ahead every time. You know you don't always win, but you get your money in good. Most of these you win. On rare occasion, you lose.
Now, when you go card dead, when the nut draws misses or go in the muck, AK misses 2 out of 3 times, your AJ from the button wins just a little limping money, ..etc ...or God forbid you give and get action on your AJ ....,Aaaarghh! ..., profits slowly melt away until you hit your average hourly rate.
You can play TAG and this is the usual result, three chances an hour and one big pot every other hour. You can play LAG and increase the chances of both, but your swings will be a lot bigger and based upon a lot of experience the results will be the same. LAGs who are great hand readers can do a bit better than TAGs per hour, but their SD is to the roof.
PS: Marginal, ..., we can still be friends and if you are in Vegas for some play. .., we can meet Downtown on Fremont Street and go together the the Golden Gate bar and have that famous GG shrimp coctail for $0.99. It's the best in the world. I mean it bro. Ask other locals pros and they'll tell you the same. Very famous place to spend a break between games. We wouldn't talk about AJ, I promise. How about talking a bitching about chicks and casino waitresses in very very absolutely short transparent skirts? That will be fun. What you say, bro? - How do you like that?
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braveslice
Pull-ups!
Silver Level
I just wait the next numbers he builds: 11. I love you 12. I hate you ??? [emoji16]
John A
Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Don't waste your time / keystrokes bro. I was also called a crap amateur player by Che. It only took one post to get the ignore button going.
Ducky7
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Che does not have valuable views, he is a troll and has no real concept of any poker terms or how to play the game
People taking his views seriously are harming themselves from learning
No one has an issue with people having different opinions its when you make up random theories / stories to try and make your incorrect opinion valid that we have a problem with
In regards to stats pretty easy to run a range villain could be shoving into pokerstove
In a situation like this its simple
Are you someone who cares about overall win rate where you want to maximise value in all aspects of the game
Or do you want to sit and have a nice friendly game and fold your first hand and settle in
S
sarniack
Rock Star
Silver Level
Oh, I have just lost my time on the explanation why this guy is wrong in other thread when using statements like "you should never play KJ apart from blinds because you will always loose money", but I see that he has much more of those...
Che
Enthusiast
Silver Level
In no-limit, the money makers hands are pocket pairs, 22+, AK, AQ and A2s+ The rest are all trash even in the big blind unraised pot because the 33% of time when you flop one of then you still got trash but this time a bigger and nastier trash.
We have 11.3% or (150/1326 )combos not trash. The rest of 1176 are all without exception losing smelly trash. They all win small and lose big. While the premium hands, all of them when they flop they flop monsters or they miss. So, you lose small and win big. Du you see the difference now?
(Win big or lose small) vs. (Win small or lose big) ....duh!......?
When you play only the none trash hands you have a chance to play a big pot approx three times per hour. You flop a set, have the nut flush draw +pair, hit your straight ..., etc. Most of these times a big pot does not pan out. It takes two hands at least to make a big pot. Or you just miss, fold and lose small. Now, approx once every other hour, you play a big pot. As a Certified Great Player, (CGP) you are ahead every time. As a CGP, you know you don't always win, but you get your money in good. Most of these you win BIG. On very very extremely rare occasion, you lose. Overall you make tons of money and need the Security escorts to the valet car parking lot.
I’m a Hold'em player. I start with the best hand, try to. When you’re a Hold'em player, you don’t get out there and draw a lot of times. I start with the best hand, that’s the reason why I don’t have to draw. For big pots, big money, I got a good hand. *I usually I got the best hand when I get my money in. I can’t help it if I get outdraw. If my opponent has the best hand at the last card, he would have the worst hand until that last card. He would have to outdraw me to take the pot away and the player who stays with the worst hand with the hopes of catching a winner, he's gonna get broke for sure.
*Now, that’s a good Hold'em player. (That's me)
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Che
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Las Vegas tourists. Every week we get about 10K new poker specialist tourists that figure KT on a King high flop is the best hand. He either wins $12 or loses $250 couple times during the night. Of course, one gets busted another new one fill up his seat. Makes no difference who that Mr Fisher is because we play against the "fish concept", that one prints usd cash. Mr. Fish is all the same.
Here is a classic example of how fish thinks:
When making hand selections pre-flop, the first mistake almost all $1-$2 and $2-$5 players make is to think about all the ways the flop can give them a monster. So they’ll play K♥9♥ because they can make a heart flush, or they can flop a king high straight or they can flop a King and a nine, or flop two nines or even flop two Kings or flop KK9, who knows? All possible. They’ll play T♥9♠ because they can make a straight, or because they can make two pair or trips. Then, when the flop disappoints them (which it usually does), they basically give up. When they flop a King they usually call the flop and the turn but give up on the river. Some of them even call the river and re buy another 100bb. ..., lol...lol
There is, however, no such thing as “flop-hitting skill.” Of course, some hands naturally hit more flops than others. But no player is any better at hitting flops than another. When you’re playing a 1-2 game, guess what your opponents are trying to do?
They’re playing specific hands pre-flop trying to hit the flop hard. You can’t play the same way your opponents play and expect
to win. You got to play hands that naturally hit the flop big or miss.
The actual poker skill is very simple: Play hands that flop big near the nuts or miss, AND lure opponents to call you when you want a call to build up the pot. That's all it is.
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Ducky7
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I honestly couldnt even be bothered to read it, you are not worth my time
You are not a good hold em player you are honestly terrible, non of what you say makes any sense and you contradict yourself constantly.
Please do not waste peoples time by posting anymore
The fact you've been stuck at 1/2 for 25 years kinda says something about how bad you are, you've never upswung once to 5/10 lmfao
Che
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I see you Mr. Fish have 3562 posts with zero time at the table. Maybe once every 3 month. Am I right? Twice per year having cards in your little hands?
Are you a $10-$20 fish donor or OMG $25-$50 or some little wsop champion?
Who knows you here in Downtown Vegas?
Give me a name of some dude that knows about you here in Downtown clubs
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