AK(s) UTG Cash Game First Hand of play...what u do?

[mukkkkt]

I personally would fold. If you don't hit a pair you're done for and it's possible he has a pocket pair QQ or better. So best case scenario you're flipping or even better he has AQ or something. I've gone all in with AK suited in the past and I usually lose to AA or KK. I just don't think the risk is worth it. It's possible he could have tried a massive steal with two random undercards but even then you're not guaranteed a win. Keep grinding and thanks for posting this. Helps everyone think about it for their future hands as well

 

[mukkkkt]

I see a lot of people saying "go for the flip" but I personally don't agree with that. If it's a plus EV play like I saw one guy analyze then go for it if it sounds good but if you're just calling for a flip it sounds more like gambling not poker imho. In tourneys I would say go for it but I don't see why you have to risk your buy in for something that's probably a flip. Admittedly he could have random junk but like I said in my other comment you're still not guaranteed a win and you also have no info on the table. Keep grinding!

 

[Mister Isaev]

Exactly

 

[droozy]

Best play imho is fold, but if you wanna gamble, why not.

 

[deform fedot]

The game of poker is risky, it all depends on the degree of risk or probability of your winning

 

[Bagdalac4ever]

By my experience, people take chances with really bad cards and they get lucky. Why shoudn't try with Ak. AK are not bad cards and if you like to take chances, go for it.

 

[karkachi]

Would go all in for sure

 

[BentleyBoy]

Guys! Great discussion and some great thoughts floating around in a polarised way! Interesting reads and lessons to be considered.

 

[PLAYFUL1]

go 4 it says Playful

 

[Che]

My honest opinion based on my extensive experience in Vegas for years and years.

If you don't have any kind of profile read on villain not even by his "look" or demeanor, so to speak, and because he's the one shoving into you and we don't have any folding equity by just calling, we may have a problem.

You got to ask yourself: is he the type of opponent that shoves like that with AQ/AJ/AT. It is even remotely possible this guy is shoving for a Max buy-in with the combos just mentioned above? (we discount him having AK since we got one, he may have it but is less likely)

If the answer is NO or even if you have any small doubt that he will not do something like that with AQ or less. Than you got to FOLD because even if you give him any pocket pair 22+, AQ and AK you are eve money and if you take out him having you got yourself in trouble.

If he is the guy that shoves on me and I lose the folding equity, I have no business on calling for the entire stack.

If I raise with Ace-King and I get reraised, I think the reraise is legitimate, I don’t even think about it. When I say I don’t think about it, I mean seriously I don’t even think if I’m throwing a good hand away. I just put it right in the muck, like this. That’s how fast I put it in there. I mean, you have to hope they’re bluffing before you touch that call. I mean, do they have Ace-Queen? Maybe, maybe, but not likely. You’ve got an Ace in your hand, they probably don’t. What do you hope they have? Two Queens? They probably have something like Two Queens. So, it’s 2-to-1 against you that you catch the Ace or the King after you call the reraise, and even then you don’t get action unless you’re buried. So, I just muck it.

Ace-King and Ace-Queen? That’s really a bad hand to call a reraise.

I remember one play that was so bad it was just beyond belief, at least for me. Daniel Negreanu raises a pot with the a
Ace-Queen offsuit from out of position. Okay, we’ll put a question mark there. In my mind, put a question mark by that play. Maybe it’s okay. That’s a three-way hand for me. I don’t mind raising with it. I don’t mind calling with it. I don’t mind throwing it away. How do you like that? It’s just okay. Now Todd Brunson reraises and Daniel calls!

Now if my choice was to call with Ace-Queen, or to take two cards, not out of the deck, but out of the muck, that the other players had mucked, give me the two out of the muck. Now I hope I catch a Seven and a five, you know. And at least I don’t have an Ace in my hand.

The way this hand made TV, it came Queen-high, and Daniel won a nice pot. And Todd did have Ace-King. But not Gabe or anyone mentioned what a horrible play that was, the call of that reraise.

So, you got to put your opponent of making horrible play like Daniel Negreanu's AQ play before calling without folding equity. If you shove all-in is a different story but calling is a bad play.

 

[BentleyBoy]

Che.

Thankyou. Great post and told in a brilliant way. You sound like the kind of guy I'd love to spend a few hours at the bar with!

Thank you.

BB

 

[Che]

Che.

Thankyou. Great post and told in a brilliant way. You sound like the kind of guy I'd love to spend a few hours at the bar with!

Thank you.

BB

Las Vegas is the world capital of the poker. That's for sure. Here the rubber really meets (or hits) the road in a spectacular way. There is not any other play on Earth where poker is player at its best. Play in Vegas for a year and you can crash any other game in the country. Learn all the trick of the trade, all the special "plays" that destroy the other opponent stacks 24/7 round the clock.

Yes, be careful if you get re-raise when you have AK. Actually, the AK has got to beat any other two card combo from KQ down, bet QQ down to 22 and be worry only about AA or KK but even there we got two blockers.

 

[SeregaBear]

I bet or do 3b / 4b. This is a strong combination. I go to all in.

 

[YodaCode]

First of all, you should always go for max buy-in. Let's take for example your situation, in case you only buy 50BB and you are have the luck to double on the first hand, you will have 100BB instead of 200BB.

As many already said before me, it depends a lot on the stakes you are playing but usually it's a call.
Another thing that could have an impact on him shoving is his stack. If the 3bet on his side would only leave him a short number of BBs behind, then it's an obvious move to shove with a strong hand.

If you have a correct bank management then loosing a buyin should not really impact you that much. I am a person who likes to have some reads on people before shoving so I would probably fold because I don't really like to bet my money on flips. On the other hand, I can totally understand a call on this situation.

 

[Tricky123bet]

The problem with calling an all-in of that size is that you give fish a chance to get in a situation that isn't very losing for them, and thus not very winning for you. You give him a breakeven spot (since you are going to be flipping a lot), which is not good when we can otherwise outplay him when we go postflop in a hand. We give him an unnecessary amount of equity, when we can just wait for a better spot, where we actually have an opportunity to outplay him, while reducing variance.
Also, some fish like to see if they can manage to double up, and if they do, they leave the table to protect their winnings. I would say about 20% of fish does this. So if you call and lose, you will not just lose a buy-in, but sometimes also make the fish leave the table, which is not good at all.

On the other hand if you call and win, some fish might go on tilt, buy-in for full again, and keep spewing off their stack, which is obviously +EV for us. So in the rare occasion that a fish doubles up, take notes if he keeps playing or leaves instantly. And in case of the other event, where a fish loses his whole stack, take notes on if he leaves instantly, or if he buys in again, and in that case if he plays more spewy than before he lost the buy-in. But without that type of information, decide if you want more variance/give unnecessary equity/possibility of going on tilt if you lose, versus just folding and picking a better spot. Because if you think about it, calling can't be really good unless we know for sure that the opponent is 3bet shoving a lot of broadways/other trash, and it is pretty rare to find that kind of fish. But calling CAN be really bad, if you are bad with dealing with tilt. So I would call with AA, KK, maybe QQ to a 100bb 3bet shove and call with AK, QQ+, maybe JJ to a smaller 3bet shove, something like 60bb.

 

[Che]

The thing is that calling is bad and it should be avoided if opponent 3bet shove on us after we 2bet. When we 3bet we bet in such a way as to put opponent to a difficult decision for all his chips using the "leverage principle"
We bet an amount that send the message that villain has no folding equity (FE) against us and he would have to either fold or shove. He cannot just call and reevaluate at the flop to see what to do after he sees the board. He's got to make the critical decision before seeing any board cards. Now, that is rough and heavy and most of the times he will just fold pre unless he's got AA or KK but even there we got blockers. So, he's most likely folding all his AK, QQ or less and all the other garbage drawing hands. We got to beat all the other AKings when we have AK. that the skill that brings the money in, (beating villain's AK with our own AK)

Example:
2-5 NL, effective $500
We 2bet for $25, villain 3bet for $75, we 4bet for 75+225=$300 to go.
Now, villain has no FE against us and the only option he's got is to either shove for $500 or fold. He cannot call $300 and see if he flops TPTK. He cannot do that. If he's got AK or QQ, JJ he's in a terrible situation playing for stacks. Most likely he folds.

 

[andrew0211]

utg opens 3.5 or 4 bb AKs

 

[Marginal]

My honest opinion based on my extensive experience in Vegas for years and years.

If you don't have any kind of profile read on villain not even by his "look" or demeanor, so to speak, and because he's the one shoving into you and we don't have any folding equity by just calling, we may have a problem.

You got to ask yourself: is he the type of opponent that shoves like that with AQ/AJ/AT. It is even remotely possible this guy is shoving for a Max buy-in with the combos just mentioned above? (we discount him having AK since we got one, he may have it but is less likely)

If the answer is NO or even if you have any small doubt that he will not do something like that with AQ or less. Than you got to FOLD because even if you give him any pocket pair 22+, AQ and AK you are eve money and if you take out him having you got yourself in trouble.

If he is the guy that shoves on me and I lose the folding equity, I have no business on calling for the entire stack.

If I raise with Ace-King and I get reraised, I think the reraise is legitimate, I don’t even think about it. When I say I don’t think about it, I mean seriously I don’t even think if I’m throwing a good hand away. I just put it right in the muck, like this. That’s how fast I put it in there. I mean, you have to hope they’re bluffing before you touch that call. I mean, do they have Ace-Queen? Maybe, maybe, but not likely. You’ve got an Ace in your hand, they probably don’t. What do you hope they have? Two Queens? They probably have something like Two Queens. So, it’s 2-to-1 against you that you catch the Ace or the King after you call the reraise, and even then you don’t get action unless you’re buried. So, I just muck it.

Ace-King and Ace-Queen? That’s really a bad hand to call a reraise.

I remember one play that was so bad it was just beyond belief, at least for me. Daniel Negreanu raises a pot with the a
Ace-Queen offsuit from out of position. Okay, we’ll put a question mark there. In my mind, put a question mark by that play. Maybe it’s okay. That’s a three-way hand for me. I don’t mind raising with it. I don’t mind calling with it. I don’t mind throwing it away. How do you like that? It’s just okay. Now Todd Brunson reraises and Daniel calls!

Now if my choice was to call with Ace-Queen, or to take two cards, not out of the deck, but out of the muck, that the other players had mucked, give me the two out of the muck. Now I hope I catch a Seven and a five, you know. And at least I don’t have an Ace in my hand.

The way this hand made TV, it came Queen-high, and Daniel won a nice pot. And Todd did have Ace-King. But not Gabe or anyone mentioned what a horrible play that was, the call of that reraise.

So, you got to put your opponent of making horrible play like Daniel Negreanu's AQ play before calling without folding equity. If you shove all-in is a different story but calling is a bad play.

Las Vegas is the world capital of the poker. That's for sure. Here the rubber really meets (or hits) the road in a spectacular way. There is not any other play on Earth where poker is player at its best. Play in Vegas for a year and you can crash any other game in the country. Learn all the trick of the trade, all the special "plays" that destroy the other opponent stacks 24/7 round the clock.

Yes, be careful if you get re-raise when you have AK. Actually, the AK has got to beat any other two card combo from KQ down, bet QQ down to 22 and be worry only about AA or KK but even there we got two blockers.

The thing is that calling is bad and it should be avoided if opponent 3bet shove on us after we 2bet. When we 3bet we bet in such a way as to put opponent to a difficult decision for all his chips using the "leverage principle"
We bet an amount that send the message that villain has no folding equity (FE) against us and he would have to either fold or shove. He cannot just call and reevaluate at the flop to see what to do after he sees the board. He's got to make the critical decision before seeing any board cards. Now, that is rough and heavy and most of the times he will just fold pre unless he's got AA or KK but even there we got blockers. So, he's most likely folding all his AK, QQ or less and all the other garbage drawing hands. We got to beat all the other AKings when we have AK. that the skill that brings the money in, (beating villain's AK with our own AK)

Example:
2-5 NL, effective $500
We 2bet for $25, villain 3bet for $75, we 4bet for 75+225=$300 to go.
Now, villain has no FE against us and the only option he's got is to either shove for $500 or fold. He cannot call $300 and see if he flops TPTK. He cannot do that. If he's got AK or QQ, JJ he's in a terrible situation playing for stacks. Most likely he folds.

I've really been trying to be nice on this forum lately and ignore a lot of dumb posts but these 3 posts quoted above should be given a ****ing medal for how stupid they are. Like holy shit dude. Holy shit.


Now I am only singling you out for this because, your pretending to know a lot more about poker than you actually do, i dont mind if someone who is learning says something incorrect but when you are trying to come off as knowledgeable without having a clue what you are talking about, I just have to say something.

I really am floored at the idiocy in these 3 posts.

 

[WVHillbilly]

I've really been trying to be nice on this forum lately and ignore a lot of dumb posts but these 3 posts quoted above should be given a ****ing medal for how stupid they are. Like holy shit dude. Holy shit.


Now I am only singling you out for this because, your pretending to know a lot more about poker than you actually do, i dont mind if someone who is learning says something incorrect but when you are trying to come off as knowledgeable without having a clue what you are talking about, I just have to say something.

I really am floored at the idiocy in these 3 posts.

Are you sure? I mean, he has played in Vegas and knows "special" plays.

 

[naturalbeing]

With no read, it is hard. A smart player just isn't going to shove here very often. You may run into some players that have a pocket pair like JJ and shove it because they don't want to see a flop, but those players probably won't do it with AA/KK since if they are smart enough to know 77-JJ can be hard to play on the flop then they are also smart enough to know that KK+ probably shouldn't be forcing people out of the pot. Then there are the poor players that are tilting with ATC.

I think the frequency that you'll be up against a worse hands more than compensates for the few times that you'll be up against AA/KK and the 45% flips you'll be in. A good player might shove AA/KK here just because it is so stupid, but he'd only do that against a player that realizes how stupid it is.

Truth be told is that I think a lot of mediocre players get ticked off at JJ and play it like this, occasionally, but hey you're only losing a bit of money in that situation over time.

In any event, a call here seems like +EV with no read. There are only 6 combos left that have your AKs crushed and it is unlikely that they would shove.

 

[cwatt3131]

Hi Guys. So! You have decided to play a cash game and having decided to buy in at the max amount for that level, and having been seated UTG (you have posted a BB to play cos you forgot to cancel auto post BB) and you get dealt AK suited. This is your first hand in this game and you have no reads on anyone else.

So, on the basis that you are going to raise, you raise 3x the BB. Everyone else folds to the Button (who just has you covered) and who shoves all in.

What are you going to do? FOLD or CALL?

Looking forward to your views on this one.

I have this same question, but I am very superstitious about playing the very first hand I am dealt. I feel like it is almost always a "setup" hand. What did you do in this situation? If it was a shove, then I would probably fold.

 

[GuiWah]

I don't like to play AK EP making big raises with players whose I do not have infos. In this case, I prefer to fold if I know that I have edge versus the field.

 

[Che]

I've really been trying to be nice on this forum lately and ignore a lot of dumb posts but these 3 posts quoted above should be given a ****ing medal for how stupid they are. Like holy shit dude. Holy shit.


Now I am only singling you out for this because, your pretending to know a lot more about poker than you actually do, i dont mind if someone who is learning says something incorrect but when you are trying to come off as knowledgeable without having a clue what you are talking about, I just have to say something.

I really am floored at the idiocy in these 3 posts.

After reading your post full of fits and starts, I see how you barreling into your losing strategy in regard to my AK "idiocy", so to speak. But you know what? I see you are focused on attempting to secure big victories that have eluded you on the economic pillars of your little home poker strategy agenda. Sorry, Jack. You will eventually make it.

If you consider my posts an "idiocy" or "The Idiocy of the World", what you actually are doing you're calling me an Idiot on an open world poker forum. And the funny thing is that the moderators let you get away with shit like insulting people. That's very nice but I'm not gonna complain because that sucks too. So, I thank you for revealing your true hidden quality by calling me what actually fits you.

If you believe that AK in the context of my posts are to be played as a drawing hand and if you believe you should see the flop first and reevaluate how AK should be played before anymore chip goes into the pot, Well, that's a big loser play for sure. You will be missing 66% of all flops and all your strategy goes down the toilet. That's not gonna work and you'll be bleeding all your chips, Chuck.

I'm telling you this: All I have in this world is what I'm going after. - How do you like that?

 

[BentleyBoy]

I've really been trying to be nice on this forum lately and ignore a lot of dumb posts but these 3 posts quoted above should be given a ****ing medal for how stupid they are. Like holy shit dude. Holy shit.


Now I am only singling you out for this because, your pretending to know a lot more about poker than you actually do, i dont mind if someone who is learning says something incorrect but when you are trying to come off as knowledgeable without having a clue what you are talking about, I just have to say something.

I really am floored at the idiocy in these 3 posts.

Hi Marginal.

Interesting comments here, but I am a little concerned as to the lack of substance behind the comments that you make (it is my thread after All!). Perhaps you would oblige and share with us why you say what you say, and perhaps include some substance of what your preferred options for this play is.

Many thanks

BB

 

[Marginal]

Response to Che in bold.

After reading your post full of fits and starts, I see how you barreling into your losing strategy in regard to my AK "idiocy", so to speak. But you know what? I see you are focused on attempting to secure big victories that have eluded you on the economic pillars of your little home poker strategy agenda. Sorry, Jack. You will eventually make it.

I dont have a clue what this means, this goes along with all your other posts of just chucking words together, nice.

If you consider my posts an "idiocy" or "The Idiocy of the World", what you actually are doing you're calling me an Idiot on an open world poker forum. And the funny thing is that the moderators let you get away with shit like insulting people. That's very nice but I'm not gonna complain because that sucks too. So, I thank you for revealing your true hidden quality by calling me what actually fits you.

Do you know why i can get away with it? Because I've contributed a ton of poker content to this site, I've spent years here trying to make people better and I have a history of being a quality poster. I dont use lightly my words, If i come out to say your post is terrible, trust me, it had to be extra special for me to do that.

If you believe that AK in the context of my posts are to be played as a drawing hand and if you believe you should see the flop first and reevaluate how AK should be played before anymore chip goes into the pot, Well, that's a big loser play for sure. You will be missing 66% of all flops and all your strategy goes down the toilet. That's not gonna work and you'll be bleeding all your chips, Chuck.

AK in this context is not a drawing hand, you cant even say that here, this is why the post is so terrible. You are making these amazing assumptions of a villain and his range in which we have no interpretation of it other than the fact that no good player ever open 3 bet jams a proper range in this spot which makes AK actually more profitable.

I'm telling you this: All I have in this world is what I'm going after. - How do you like that?

Dude, you can do what you want to do, but I'm not jsut gonna sit on this forum, look at someone spout insane garbage like they have detailed understanding of the game, when they dont. I like the forum and members of this forum too much to do that.

Hi Marginal.

Interesting comments here, but I am a little concerned as to the lack of substance behind the comments that you make (it is my thread after All!). Perhaps you would oblige and share with us why you say what you say, and perhaps include some substance of what your preferred options for this play is.

Many thanks

BB

Sorry, I chose to get into another issue here instead of responding to your first question. I apologise for that. Seeing as I've derailed your thread, I'll give you a response.

Firstly, I hate hypotheticals that do not exist in reality so I am making an assumption that this actually happened to you.

The value of the game means nothing, whether this is for £1M dollars or £10, the decision is the same since we are playing with incomplete information.

All we have to go on here is the following;

1) We have a top tier type of hand
2) What type of player makes this type of play (Again, this will be on a general basis, not on villain specific but on all the villains we have ever played who have done things like this)
3) Are we risk averse or welcome it.

We wont discuss 1, cause the merits and value of AK are all over the forum.

on point 2) I'd like everyone to think back to ever seeing a play like this, not from the randomised isolation of this instance but everytime you have seen someone over jam preflop in any game. Ranges here are not exactly consistent and will vary player to player and while there definitely are AA and KK in their range, I think everyone can agree that we see people go off with numerous other type of hands to where the range can include suited connectors, weak aces, any pair, KJ/KT and those types of hands. It is a very wide range and to isolate a villains range to just AA/KK/QQ/JJ and AK would go against every player's poker history in random overbet spots. The range is wide is all im saying.


Against top 5% of hands we have 45% equity
10% - 56%
25% - 62%
40% - 64%.

In my history, people doing this usually fall between 10 and 25%. Which is why i feel very confident in this but with that said, you should also consider 3.

3) Are you risk averse or not. I snap call in a heart beat but not everyone is the same. You might be there just trying to have fun with friends, have a nice evening and just have 1 BI with you. Naturally its not always about making money right. Additionally, you might not just like risk and are willing to accept an overall smaller winrate. Fair to you but if the decision is entirely about maximising profit and we dont have to worry about re-buying etc. You get it in everytime without question.