- Status
Che
Enthusiast
Silver Level
All your theory is just fine and accurate and I don't dispute validity of it. However, my approach is based on flopping big hands that earn huge in relation to the blinds and that's the crux of the earning of steady income playing cards.
See, the 22+, A2s+ and AK/AQ, just 11.5% of total possible combos preflop. The above rage has got to go to the flop and if it gets there it will earn great money for you. Just in computer sims in a $1-$2 NL effective stacks $400 the above range earns about $82/hour. Now, we can cut that in half to $41/hour because in live play those games don't have effective of $400 each player but let's give them on average $200. Let us make a further adjustment and cut even more and have opponents have $150 and our earnings to $30/hour in these low stack game. I can tell you that here in Vegas the average stacks is about $200 in the 1/2 NL and that game is a gold mine for $32-$40/hour. You can actually crush the game all day long and the games never stops 24/7 no matter what day or time is.
Big flopping hands is the secret of making money. Now, on the other hand the secret of playing by the book, so to speak, is the correct play in lab environment but in a Vegas we play big flopping hand ranges.
Last edited:
M
Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
I still dont get your point.
1) Vegas isnt some magical place. I've been to Vegas, I've played 25/50+ in Vegas and the play isnt anymore special that London or Barcelona or anywhere else online.
2) Im not arguing with the point that in holdem you are trying to get hands that flop very well, thats the point of the game. Also that range is very very limited and if thats the backbone of how you play, you will be found out when you move above 1/2 as players become more perceptive.
3) Those win rates are incredibly wrong. I would pay you 10k if you can prove you made between 40$ and 82$ an hour grinding 1/2 with sub 400$ stacks. over a sustained period. If you can actually prove that, 10k is yours. I'm not saying you cant beat the game, Im just saying you are overestimating your win rate if you think that you can make 40$ + at 1/2 with 200$ stacks.
4) I am not bringing any of this up out of just study and playing by the book. This is entirely my experience from playing over the last 10 years.
1) Vegas isnt some magical place. I've been to Vegas, I've played 25/50+ in Vegas and the play isnt anymore special that London or Barcelona or anywhere else online.
2) Im not arguing with the point that in holdem you are trying to get hands that flop very well, thats the point of the game. Also that range is very very limited and if thats the backbone of how you play, you will be found out when you move above 1/2 as players become more perceptive.
3) Those win rates are incredibly wrong. I would pay you 10k if you can prove you made between 40$ and 82$ an hour grinding 1/2 with sub 400$ stacks. over a sustained period. If you can actually prove that, 10k is yours. I'm not saying you cant beat the game, Im just saying you are overestimating your win rate if you think that you can make 40$ + at 1/2 with 200$ stacks.
4) I am not bringing any of this up out of just study and playing by the book. This is entirely my experience from playing over the last 10 years.
Last edited:
cwatt3131
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Okay, so I am fairly new to poker (playing for about 6 months). Am I now worse off after reading this thread? It is a little confusing.
If I'm UTG, I have been raising 3.5x-4.0x the BB with AK. If someone shoves on me after that, and everyone else folds, then I always call. Is it correct to assume that anyone worried about playing AK heads up vs a shove doesn't have proper bankroll Management and/or they are playing in stakes that are too high?
I am just looking to become a better student/player of poker and not trying to offend anyone or ask stupid questions.
If I'm UTG, I have been raising 3.5x-4.0x the BB with AK. If someone shoves on me after that, and everyone else folds, then I always call. Is it correct to assume that anyone worried about playing AK heads up vs a shove doesn't have proper bankroll Management and/or they are playing in stakes that are too high?
I am just looking to become a better student/player of poker and not trying to offend anyone or ask stupid questions.
Last edited:
Ducky7
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Yeah you're right there bro
Dont worry about all the other stuff people are over complicating and derailing the thread
Che
Enthusiast
Silver Level
You see, I'm not arguing that with the books and with what you're saying. What I'm doing is play hands that cannot flop small or trouble hands. In all games: 1/2, 2/5, 5/10, and 10/20 ...etc. Don't matter. There is not a single hand preflop from my range: 22+, A2s+ and the AK/AQ that will flop small or a trouble hand on the flop. I either miss or flop big. The 22+ flops sets, the A2s+ flops flush or pair+flush draw or in the case or ATs, AJs, AQs and AKs+ flops bit top
pairs, gut-shot+nut flush to the Royal or even once in a blue moon a Royal and AQo, AKo flops TPTK, gut-shot, top-two-pair. Now theses are real big flop hands.
All I'm saying is your strategy is valid and for sure makes money. No arguments about. What I try to convey is that if you flop big you have a great chance to outplay opponent because you got plenty of time to action-up and lure them into the pot that will get big for sure. Your JT/JTs or 76s or T9s or even KQs or AJo are good hands but what deficient all they have is that same of them are trouble hands pre and even on the flop. You will not know if you flop a money situation or just a trouble situation. That's the problem. The medium suited connectors need time to materialize when they flop a draw. The KTs or AJ and even JT are dominated if they flop top-pair. Especially the JT flopping two-pair is a big trouble situation because the JTx flop is a very very action heavy board where all villains that have called pre-flop have now connected with the board. JTx flops connect the most calling hands that been too weak to raise or re-raise pre but now have connected in many way and it will cost you lots of money to get your two pair of JT all the way to the river. You never know for sure if you got the best hand when another face card or board pairs before the river.
My playing hands, either flop BIG or MISS. I cannot get in a bind with the pot/flop because I know immediately where I stand. Both ways of playing are valid (my way and your too). My friend, I do this for a living here in Vegas where I reside for the last 25 years. Yes, in 1-2 NL $200 effective, I can make $450 per 10 hours and in $2-5$ NL $500-$1000 effective, he earning goes way up to $800 to $1K per 10 hours. The thing is you got to be rested and focus for the entire 10 hours and that's not an easy thing to do. Seeing cards combos all day, every day, is hard work. It is!
- How do you like that? Have great flops!PS: Look, If you go to any online poker site, anyone, and extract a data bank of many many hands of some good player and analyze them. You will discover that 22+, A2s+ and AQ/AK makes the most money and flop the biggest hands by far. There are no any other two card combos in the deck that can make more money vs, my playing range. There is none. Period.
The beauty is that there are only 11.5% or 150 hands out of 1326 deck combo of two cards that you got to be familiar and all are the easiest to play on the flop. (TPTK, T2P, Set, Str8, Nut Flush, Qx4, Str8-Flush, Pair+Flash Draw, GS+2Overs, GS+SF, GS+Royal Draw)
Did I miss anything else from the monster possibilities? (Of course all this takes time. But what's so big deal? We got all the time in the world because we're doing nothing else but play cards full time. .. lol..lol
Last edited:
Che
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Sorry, I forgot this
This range run in a simulator and at the tables too with 100 effective or more stacks has an equity on the flop of 95.64% or miss. If they hit the flop and we continue the entire rage has 85.28% equity. What you want more? That's a lot of equity that extract a lot of money from the game. We actually, just crash the game every day. That's not easy. I'm not saying it's easy because is not. Takes a lot of will and heard to follow this type of play on every hand.
Loop, I'm telling you a secret, so to speak. Now, I know I'm going to take a lot of heat for this.
Example: I'm on the button with AJo, ATo, A9o all the way down to A2o, also JT, QT, KT and all the Tx down and I'm the first one in the pot or I have some limpers in front, doesn't matter, I AM FOLDING! - Not because the hands don't have some small value but because I cannot flop BIG unless I flop: perfect+perfect+perfect like JJX or TTx and even that I got trouble trips. All that flops are so rare that the loss is insignificant. The so called perfect+perfect, so to speak happens once in a blue moon and the loss is 12c/hour ... lol...lol...
Last edited:
Pauliefromgoodfellas
Rock Star
Silver Level
Call assume he is a donk, we have blockers to the hands that really have us in bad shape: AA & KK, and its possible he would do that with 77-QQ, and ako or suited. EZ call
Pauliefromgoodfellas
Rock Star
Silver Level
You're fine, the raise sizing in live games is usually a little higher than online.
S
skaterick
Legend
Loyaler
The question cant properly be answered without more stack size information . Like thomasguy3419 said , I am folding my ak(s ) when we are both fully stacked , but calling with say , 50 or less . In between its hard to decide . ak (s), ak off , aq (s) and aq off are much better hands late in tourneys than in ring games . Because of the ever rising blinds , players are forced to make moves with hands that don't warrant it . I suppose the 1st hand of a tournament would present the same dilemma .
Che
Enthusiast
Silver Level
OK,
2/5 NL $500 effective
You raise OTB with AT/AJ for $25 and get two or even one caller.
Flop: pot=$50 or $75 Axx
Villain leads out and bets the pot
pot =$100 or $150
Are you calling, raising or folding? - You got TP shit kicker
How much money have you burned compared with me folding OTB
I burned $0
You burned whatever you bet pf and OTF ~ $100
Now what's going to happen after you got action on your AJ/AT shit?
You know what? - Certain hands you DON'T HAVE to PLAY (disregard them like never happen. Like asking the dealer for new cards. Or tell him "reshuffle the goddam deck) When you that folding, that's the meaning.
How do you like that?
Last edited:
M
Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
You realise what you just did there is completely unscientific and complete nonsense right.
using your example i can say;
You call with KK preflop and flop comes Axx and villain bets into you. Why did you play KK, if you fold KK you burn no money.
Do you see why this is a completely mental approach to studying the game?
Find any holdem player's database, and you will see they are winning money with AJ etc.
All you are doing is validating my comments earlier about you just spouting off with no idea what you are really doing.
Che
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Aaaarghh!
Yes, AJo wins unintentional but loses much more in raised pots when gets action.
AJ/AT and KJ/KT they can put you in a bind with the pot that you feel obligated to continue and MOST of times you're behind on action flops. Now, if you don't get action you win the limping money that adds up to just right for $0.99 for a shrimp kocktail downtown Vegas at the Golden Gate bar.
Feeling like a champ, you will do it again someday. But, this time I will drag your money and the pot with a Set, I’ll buy the waitress a fur coat and xuxk her blue for a week. Now which guy do you want to be? The smart one with the shrimps or me the stupid one with the sore dick?
How do you like that?
:icon_boun
Last edited:
Che
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Aaaarghh!
I'm not trolling. I'm just describing you the value of the dominated garbage hands
AJ and ...etc ....,AT, ...wins small when the limpers fold and lose big on the flop. That's all is it. Not a big deal just that the AJ cannot flop BIG unless flop is: perfect+perfect+perfect.
Ducky7
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Do you have any basis for your complete and utter moronic comments or do you just type random words and hope it adds up to a sentence?
AJ wins money but loses more in raised pots.....
Maybe if you learned how to play post flop lmfao
Stop trolling people come on here to learn and you are just uttering absolute shit that someone who doesnt know might take seriously
AJ wins money but loses more in raised pots.....
Maybe if you learned how to play post flop lmfao
Stop trolling people come on here to learn and you are just uttering absolute shit that someone who doesnt know might take seriously
M
Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
Yea but you arent making sense, me saying you are trolling is actually giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Look since you seem to be serious here, poker is not just about winning massive on select hands but also accumulating with other hands. I will gladly take smaller profits on marginal hands where I can with the same added benefit of still being able to get the big profit on big hands like you mention. Not only that, by playing weaker hands, I increase my chances of making more money with my big hands by not being a nit.
/thread. There nothing left to be said on this. Your approach is flawed. I really never thought I would have to explain this.
- Status