3 betting

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stormswa

stormswa

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I have been watching alot of cardrunner's video's lately, if you don't know they are a site that I support 100%. Taylor one of the guys that runs and teaches on the site is a amazing player that started from small stakes and worked his way up and now plays the highest games on the net.

ok back to the subject of this post. Taylor and his group of teachers 3-bet alot, what is 3 betting you may ask. Im soooo glad you did, basically it is betting 3x the blind or the bet in front of you. When I used to play I used to look at pot amount to dictate how much I was going to re-raise you and I basically found that I was committing way to much to the pot. Take this for instance you are in a tourney and blinds are like 100/200 and you each have say 5K in your stack. So you 3-bet preflop to 600 and get 2 callers so pot is 1800, you have AK and hit top pair. Guy leads out for 200 (because he is a moron? you look at pot and make it 2000 which is pot size. You basically are committing 1/2 of your stack and if he pushes you basically have to call. So in that example you committed 2500, and also you are scaring away hands like KQ or KJ and losing value.

ok lets play it different 1800 in pot and guy bets 200 on flop to which you 3-bet to 600, next guy will fold most likely. You have put 1200 in the pot now and still are able to fold if someone comes over top of you and you still define your hand. You can also do this in cash games, which now is how I play. It also helps me to define my opponents hand, I don't really like playing the all in poker thing and would rather wins alot of small pots then take the chance of pushing all in on flop and hopeing my hand holds up.


they say in beggining stages of a tourney you are only supposed to add like 20% to your stack anyway. So thoughts concerns?
 
joosebuck

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i like this. i've been trying to think of a way to play that allows me to take advantage of the fact that i'm spot on on a lot of my opponent's hands instead of just push/fold poker. this style seems to allow you to min/max very well.
 
stormswa

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well

i like this. i've been trying to think of a way to play that allows me to take advantage of the fact that i'm spot on on a lot of my opponent's hands instead of just push/fold poker. this style seems to allow you to min/max very well.


yea it allows you to actually play poker after the flop instead of playing flop poker. I don't mind letting hands like KQ and KJ see the flop when I have AK or better. I mean isn't that what we basically want, hands coming in that we have totally dominated?

everyone always talks about getting those hands to fold but why on earth would we want that? I want KQ to follow me all the way down to the river, hell they are drawing very slim and if they hit then oh well, we basically are controlling the size of the pot so I doubt we will be going bust with TPTK but we are getting value all the way down.
 
Lo-Dog

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meh, they stole how I've always played. Standard reraise is 3x villiains raise.:p

Of course it can go the other way for me too.

Cash game, blinds .50/1.00 I raise to $3, SB folds BB calls pot 6.50.


Flop comes whatever...villian bets $3.....If I am going to reraise its to $9 which here is the pot size.
 
ChuckTs

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What if we're sitting on a draw-heavy board though?
Also, the majority of the time if someone's going to call a raise PF with KQ or KJ, they're most likely going to invest a lot of chips with TP, so why not bet bigger?

Not sure I get this concept %100...
 
stormswa

stormswa

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What if we're sitting on a draw-heavy board though?
Also, the majority of the time if someone's going to call a raise PF with KQ or KJ, they're most likely going to invest a lot of chips with TP, so why not bet bigger?

Not sure I get this concept %100...


its so you dont over commit yourself to the pot, if he hits his draw its going to be very obvious he hit and we will be able to fold without investing alot into it, remember that draw only happens 33% of the time so the other 67% of the time we are going to make him pay us off by just 3 betting him. Even though the 3bet dosent really price him in alot of players will call that instead of a whole pot size. This is more of a 1/2 NL and above concept though 3 betting in .10/.20 is pretty silly.

if you repop someone with KQ on the flop to say like pot size or more then most likely they will fold their top pair, while 3 betting most stay in so we profit more on them in long run. If they call the 3bet its because we made it small enough for them to preflop but if we do some giant pot size raise on the flop then they are going to run away from that KQ and we dont want that now do we?

think about it 1/2 NL and he comes in for blind and we make it $6, so he only has to invest like $4 more so he calls, flop is something like Kxx, he bets OOP something like 1/2 pot so $6 and we make it $18. thats only $12 more most will call this with QK.

your way to scare the draws out Im guess you are betting more then the pot here because 3 betting is basically pot betting in HU play so with his $6 bet im guessing you make it something like $30 total? that means he has to call $24 with just KQ very unlikely he is calling that and we lose value. If the draw hits then we got control over size of pot and can decide if we believe he made his draw or was he on a weak hand like KQ, remember we control that pot. Remember most players dont bet the flush when they hit it, they try to be sooo sneaky and check raise us, so if he bets out on turn im guessing he is on something like KQ and I will call down reasonable bets, I believe we make more this way because I think we will be ahead more then we are behind a flush here.
 
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A

alan1983

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I like this but not for draw heavy boards.

Doesnt make sense to me to give someone odds to chase just so i can fold more easily if he hits.
 
tosborn

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I know allot of you guys have a problem with the way I play by remarks to some of my posts, but, here goes anyway.

I play a version of the 3-bet style above. I 3BB bet most playable hands with exception to the premium QQ, KK, AA, & AKsuited with which I usually 5BB bet.

My theory is that playing SNG's and MTT's primarily I don't want to go bust. Not to say that I don't want to win the most money I can from my good hands, but, let's look at this example.

Example 1
preflop...........
Hero bets 3BB
Villain 1 calls
Villain 2 calls
(12BB in pot)
flop........
Villain 1 checks
Villain 2 checks
Hero bets 3BB
Villain 1 calls
Villain 2 calls
turn.........
(21BB in pot)
Villain 1 checks
Villain 2 bets 5BB
Hero bets 15BB
Villain 1 folds
Villain 2 calls
(41BB in pot)
river...........
Villain 2 checks
Hero bets what? We can easily pot this bet here and show dominance or we can flip them over. (We have controlled the betting throughout)

Example 2
preflop...........
Hero bets 3BB
Villain 1 calls
Villain 2 calls
(12BB in pot)
flop........
Villain 1 checks
Villain 2 checks
Hero bets 12BB
Villain 1 folds
Villain 2 calls
turn.........
(24BB in pot)
Villain 2 bets 5BB
Hero bets 29BB
Villain 2 calls
(75BB in pot)
river...........
Villain 2 checks
Hero bets what now? (We have now overinflated the pot and don't have many options either flip or go all-in)

Now this is assuming that both players start with approximately 100BB. In example 1 we have commited to the pot 21BB in example 2 we commited 44. Some will argue that we don't want people to chase us to the river, but, I would much rather build the pot gradually and be able to dump my hand if needed. I still am able to gather information on my opponents and I was never in jeopardy of having to decide wheter I wanted to risk my hole stack or not.

The only exception is if it is a very loose table I will change the preflop raise to 5-7BB. I then 3x's bet nearly all raises. I will rarely push all-in unless I have the nuts.

Obviously there are a ton of variables that play into this. But, this is my standard style of play. I don't mind letting my opponent chase the river as long as the board is not scary.

OK guys tear this apart.
 
stormswa

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I like this but not for draw heavy boards.

Doesnt make sense to me to give someone odds to chase just so i can fold more easily if he hits.

ok lets analize it then.


AK you bet $6 and Qd9d comes

pot $12

flop is K with 2 diamonds

guy bet $6 and you make it $18 and he calls.

lets stop right there.

$48 right there.

flush hits 3 out of 10 times right so you lose $24 x 3= $72 becuase we are good players and can fold. now the other 7 times they dont hit we win $24x7= $168 and that is without us pricing him in all the way down. Now that to say the flush dosent hit on river we lost a little bit more but not much. And after our 3 bet on the flop we can punish him on turn if we want seeing as we put him on flush draw by now. Also there is no way QK bets this pot after our flop raise when the flush hits, sure he could bluff us once and awhile but usually with a flush out and someone holding QK they wont.

so you can see just by flop play we win more then we would lose.
 
tosborn

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I will admit though that I only began playing this style the last couple of weeks and don't nearly have enough hands to say that it is flawless. However, I do like the fact that we are controlling the pot size most of the time. Even occasionally out of position.
 
stormswa

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hey

tosborn,


your comment at end couldn't be more correct.

they say don't let draws draw cheap, by 3 betting we are not letting them draw cheap but we arnt making it soooo expensive that there is no way they are calling. We are basically making it just tempting enough to call. now if its checked to me I usually bet about 1/2 pot to 2/3 pot. so I would make it $12 into the $18 pot again very tempting for a flush draw to call. He has to call $12 into a $30 pot which is just about what he needs but is very boarderline, most good players would lay it down but average ones will not and horrible ones wont at all.

Like I said in other post I want the chasers, im strong enough to lay down my TPTK. If you cant fold this is not a style you can play.
 
ChuckTs

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Interesting stuff; tbh my cash game could be a lot better, and I'm gonna implement this next time I sit down and see how it goes.
 
stormswa

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Interesting stuff; tbh my cash game could be a lot better, and I'm gonna implement this next time I sit down and see how it goes.

you are solid chuck and can lay down a hand so I think the style would fit you very well. I do suggest making the investment in that place I said in my 1st post alot of their stuff is golden, blocking bets, inducing bluffs, etc etc.

I pay them $25 a month and it is money well spent.
 
ChuckTs

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you are solid chuck and can lay down a hand
You don't know me well, do you ;)
so I think the style would fit you very well. I do suggest making the investment in that place I said in my 1st post alot of their stuff is golden, blocking bets, inducing bluffs, etc etc.

I pay them $25 a month and it is money well spent.
I was seriously considering it a while ago. This was a blog post I wrote after watching their trial vid: https://www.cardschat.com/blog/02/22/observe/

Still thinking about it, but tbh I'm broke right now :p...gonna wait a bit and see where im at financially.
 
joosebuck

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it feels like we're laying them odds more instead of making them call obviously incorrect odds(which todays donks have learned mostly not to do), and i like that. the closer it gets to 3:1 on their money (even if it is 3:1 because of them block beting oop) the fuzzier their math will get and the more often they will call while getting 2.5:1 on their money & we win more in the long run. this style of poker is much more what i've been trying to adapt into my game as of late.
 
Lo-Dog

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IDK, I need to do some maths..... see ya next week.:p

How many times do we expect villian to fold to reraise?

What do we do on the turn if a scare cards hit, if not?

How many times will we fold the best hand?

I have lots more questions but I'll try to work them out myself.
 
joosebuck

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my main concern is that our bluffs wont work well when 3betting, as against weaker players they will be priced in - or against stronger players they could notice if we pot-raise instead of 3bet in each situation. could work to our advantage though in mixing up and pot-raising with the nuts, etc.
 
A

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ok lets analize it then.


AK you bet $6 and Qd9d comes

pot $12

flop is K with 2 diamonds

guy bet $6 and you make it $18 and he calls.

lets stop right there.

$48 right there.

flush hits 3 out of 10 times right so you lose $24 x 3= $72 becuase we are good players and can fold. now the other 7 times they dont hit we win $24x7= $168 and that is without us pricing him in all the way down. Now that to say the flush dosent hit on river we lost a little bit more but not much. And after our 3 bet on the flop we can punish him on turn if we want seeing as we put him on flush draw by now. Also there is no way QK bets this pot after our flop raise when the flush hits, sure he could bluff us once and awhile but usually with a flush out and someone holding QK they wont.

so you can see just by flop play we win more then we would lose.

In this example, you bet pot at the same time you 3-raised him. but anyway, yes youd still win more than youd lose BUT, overall youd be winning less than what youd have when you bet bigger.

Youd be saving the bet difference 30% of the time, but youd be winning it less 70% of the time. So theres a 40% of the bet difference loss, maybe less since theyd fold more, but then again thatd apply to the 30% you lose as well.

If you give them odds to chase, then theyre making +EV plays against you. Therefore on long run that +EV is coming out of your pocket.


of course with a AK and KQ its different, but once again its odds. KQ only has 3 outs to beat you, so 3-betting just about any bet would make it a -EV play for them to call you.
 
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joosebuck

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If you give them odds to chase, then theyre making +EV plays against you. Therefore on long run that +EV is coming out of your pocket.

you dont give them odds to chase. 3 betting there doesn't give any draw (besides a monster draw) odds to chase. you just dont make it so obvious that the odds dont dictate a call, and it's more +EV because youll make money (in a +EV sense) on more hands, rather than your occasional donk who will shove with the nut flush draw, or OESD.

and like he said it also gives you room to bail if you get trapped by a set
 
stormswa

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In this example, you bet pot at the same time you 3-raised him. but anyway, yes youd still win more than youd lose BUT, overall youd be winning less than what youd have when you bet bigger.

Youd be saving the bet difference 30% of the time, but youd be winning it less 70% of the time. So theres a 40% of the bet difference loss, maybe less since theyd fold more, but then again thatd apply to the 30% you lose as well.

If you give them odds to chase, then theyre making +EV plays against you. Therefore on long run that +EV is coming out of your pocket.


of course with a AK and KQ its different, but once again its odds. KQ only has 3 outs to beat you, so 3-betting just about any bet would make it a -EV play for them to call you.

joose already answered this so I wont respond with exactly what he said, 3 betting in a heads up pot basically is just a pot sized raise which like joose said is -ev for him to call BUT by keeping the pot small and controlled by you, you dictate the action.

You want flush draws to chase you, you want straight draws to chase you. you want to control the pot and basically extract money from your opponents. AND you want to be able to get away from the hand with minimal damage when the draws complete or you are trapped by a better hand. By 3 betting you achieve all this.

if you bet bigger then you make your hand too obvious, you basically tell the person what you have and that the only way they are calling on a draw is if they want to play for entire stacks. NO ONE is going to call that because basically they can put you on a hand instantly. Hell KQ isn't going to call you either and those are the players we want to outplay. In poker everyone gets the same amount of good hands through a course of a lifetime, what makes the winning players from the break even players is how much money they make when they have a good hand. By playing this way you maximize your value of your hand and minimize your loses.

to me that is +ev!!!!!
 
Bombjack

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Taylor and his group of teachers 3-bet alot, what is 3 betting you may ask. Im soooo glad you did, basically it is betting 3x the blind or the bet in front of you.
Interesting thread, but you've mis-understood what 3-betting is. 3-betting is just re-raising. 1st bet is a "1-bet", raise is a "2-bet", and re-raise is "3-bet". Pre-flop the blind (or calling the blind) is the 1-bet. First raise is a 2-bet. So a 3-bet pre-flop is just any re-raise. Typically this is pot-size, which just happens to normally be about 3 times the size of the raise before you.
 
edge-t

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I always thought 3-bet is a limit holdem term. bet, re-raise, afterwhich comes 3-bet... guess it makes sense for NL too.
 
stormswa

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Interesting thread, but you've mis-understood what 3-betting is. 3-betting is just re-raising. 1st bet is a "1-bet", raise is a "2-bet", and re-raise is "3-bet". Pre-flop the blind (or calling the blind) is the 1-bet. First raise is a 2-bet. So a 3-bet pre-flop is just any re-raise. Typically this is pot-size, which just happens to normally be about 3 times the size of the raise before you.

LOL, yes I know what 3 betting in limit poker is.

Trust me I don't misunderstand what he means, I have the video's and watch how they do it.

3 betting in no limit is taking the 1st bet and multiplying it by 3 and re-raising that much. Trust me I watch them do this every tourney or cash game they are in. I know exactly what I mean when I say it.

the way you mean it is meant for limit poker because in limit poker the betting is capped after 4 bets in no limit there is no cap, you could re-raise 100 times back in forth in no limit poker, there is no cap. If the blinds were 1/2 and we each had 10k in our stacks we could re-raise eachother by $3 over and over. The term you are using is a limit poker term.
 
joosebuck

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woo im right for once.

my only question is how we incorporate deception into this, storms? 3betting wont get a lot of semibluff hands to fold. and our line will be so predictable by then as we only 3bet with out strong hands
 
Lo-Dog

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the way you mean it is meant for limit poker because in limit poker the betting is capped after 4 bets in no limit there is no cap, you could re-raise 100 times back in forth in no limit poker, there is no cap. If the blinds were 1/2 and we each had 10k in our stacks we could re-raise eachother by $3 over and over. The term you are using is a limit poker term.


Actually its not just a limit term. To 3-bet is exactly what bomb said. There was a thread a while ago by dbitel about 3-bet light, which is reraising with a marginal hand.

I think the video is making up a term for what he is doing but when you say 3-bet most people will think what bomb said.
 
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