10NL easier than 2&5 NL

[vinylspiros]

Dunno about 10NL but 5NL is a freaking nightmare. The mix of players who play horribly (90%+ of the players, or so it seems) is too diverse to know which subtype you are facing, and they change way too often to get a clear idea.

Suckouts come way too often and while in theory in long term (what, million+ hands?) it should be profitable for me I just don't see myself surviving that long. Almost every board has SOME kind of gutshot draw/FD or is paired (and yes he called a massive raise with 95s because hey, sooted!) and you can bet your ass nobody with a gutshot folds to flop cbets and someone is gonna find use for the turn card. Kiss your TPTK/set/top 2 pairs goodbye sonny, there goes another buyin.

In cases where I do have a decent sample and notes it often turns out that the notes are unreliable. Not that they change their game as adjustment, it is probably more "lets try this today" thing.

Basically HUD is semi-useless, notes are semi-useless.

So I switched to learning MSS, they still suck out (because even with me giving no implied odds, there is no folding) but it doesn't hurt as much and the math is much more favourable.

++++1^^^^^=you sir got the point im trying to make!

 

[Cafeman]

Just sounds to me like you both need to improve tbh. Knowing how to value bet is enough to beat these games, TRUST ME. Forget about all this, "they play soooo bad but they always suckout" bullshit, and just value bet them to death. Jesus!

 

[vinylspiros]

Just sounds to me like you both need to improve tbh. Knowing how to value bet is enough to beat these games, TRUST ME. Forget about all this, "they play soooo bad but they always suckout" bullshit, and just value bet them to death. Jesus!

UR RIGHT MAN. damn i just read all my posts and this entire thread and realised how dumb it looks. I take it back. im gonna go sit down at 2NL and 5NL right now and show them whos the BOSS!
I aint scarred of no ghosts! duttuuu tunna tunna tututututunaaa(that was meant to be the ghostbuster theme song)

 

[LD1977]

Tried, doesn't work in 5NL. As I said, most boards by the river (and often turn) complete something and what do you know, your TPTK or whatever is not good anymore.

- If you are OOP with a TP you WILL get bet into on the turn if you try pot controlling, sizing will be around 1/4 to 1/3 pot. If you fire a 2nd barrel, then if they call you are again unsure what they have.

On the river you find out one of the following:
1) he called your MP raise in BTN with QQ+ and you were behind the whole way; your "value betting" and his turn miniraise/minifloat was just enough to get you to give up most of your stack.
2) he called with 66 and you were ahead the whole way (yey! but next time he will have AA played the same way)
3) he called twice with a random gutshot and filled up on the river and you are AGAIN stacked because there way no way to guess he is such an idiot
4) he had a set from the flop and just waited you out

Things are a LITTLE better IP but OOP play is a ****ing nightmare. What pisses me off the most is that people are slowwwwwly explaining that I need to value bet right, I hate money so refuse to follow that advice.

 

[LD1977]

Scenario 2: You have QQ UTG and raise, someone calls, flop is A high. Every time you bet he calls, every time you check he bets (regardless what he holds). No raises until the river. I LOVE that one

 

[ScottishMatt]

1) Don't call a turn raise with TPTK.
2) What?
3) If you stack with a set, then cooler. If not, L2Fold
4) Bet until raised.

FWIW I'm getting thrashed at 5NL. Going through the worst run of cards since I started playing poker and yet i'm still winning for 11BB/100 over the last 5K hands.

Just fold plenty until you got a hand, even then learn to fold.

Edit - Scenario 2) X/F

 

[LD1977]

Those are all examples of various hands that are played the same way, not 4 different hands. You only find out on the river which is it.

1) turn is minraise, you get LOTS of those in 5NL, sometimes they have medium pair, sometimes nuts, sometimes air
2) they don't fold pocket pairs, what is unclear?
3) chance of board having some kind of gutshot filled up or paired board or FD filled is massive (100%?), OOP you can only guess WTF is he holding
4) raise is on the river, for extra fun many people see you fold to a river raise once and then they raise you EVERY time (yey! guess EVERY time which of the 4 scenarios is it this time, ad nauseam)

Donk bets of 1/4 pot on the turn are a special story. If you start folding TP to those, you are dead in 5NL. If you just call, sure as sunshine he fires again on the river or even shoves into you. If you raise, he calls (1 out of 4 times folds just to mix it up). River is another bet, which when called in 30% of cases is total air and other time it is anything from medium pair to absolute nuts.

 

[vinylspiros]

Scenario 2: You have QQ UTG and raise, someone calls, flop is A high. Every time you bet he calls, every time you check he bets (regardless what he holds). No raises until the river. I LOVE that one

LMFAO. this is hillarious. so true. just hate these lame spots playing against people with no brain. give a zombie 2 cards and hell give u the exact same competition. and he'll win too. lol.

 

[ScottishMatt]

Whatever you say

 

[vinylspiros]

Those are all examples of various hands that are played the same way, not 4 different hands. You only find out on the river which is it.

1) turn is minraise, you get LOTS of those in 5NL, sometimes they have medium pair, sometimes nuts, sometimes air
2) they don't fold pocket pairs, what is unclear?
3) chance of board having some kind of gutshot filled up or paired board or FD filled is massive (100%?), OOP you can only guess WTF is he holding
4) raise is on the river, for extra fun many people see you fold to a river raise once and then they raise you EVERY time (yey! guess EVERY time which of the 4 scenarios is it this time, ad nauseam)

Donk bets of 1/4 pot on the turn are a special story. If you start folding TP to those, you are dead in 5NL. If you just call, sure as sunshine he fires again on the river or even shoves into you. If you raise, he calls (1 out of 4 times folds just to mix it up). River is another bet, which when called in 30% of cases is total air and other time it is anything from medium pair to absolute nuts.

LMFAO. wow these are so entertaining.

jokes aside though. the thing is,that you have to make the right moves according to what your holding and now what hes doing. in general these morons are very hard to read. but since thats the case dont try to read them. read your hud stat on them and act accordingly.

although the people who mentioned in the thread that if u cant beat 5 nl u suck(and their right), i still believe that 10NL and esp 25 NL offers a more predictable game than 5 NL. if not easier then lets use the word balanced.

 

[LD1977]

1) Don't call a turn raise with TPTK.
2) What?
3) If you stack with a set, then cooler. If not, L2Fold
4) Bet until raised.

FWIW I'm getting thrashed at 5NL. Going through the worst run of cards since I started playing poker and yet i'm still winning for 11BB/100 over the last 5K hands.

Just fold plenty until you got a hand, even then learn to fold.

Edit - Scenario 2) X/F

Getting trashed in 5NL is losing 5 sets in a row to gutshots.

P.S. Don't get me wrong, I know that good players can win at 5NL easily (good player can win much higher than that) but saying that weak tight play with value betting is "the secret" is ****ing insulting.

 

[JOEBOB69]

V betting is the secret.
Knowing that when your oop with QQ betting into Axx board is a wawb situation is the secret.
Not going on tilt when the fish hits his gut shoot on you is the secret.
Folding to passive players turn raises when you have TPTK/over pair is the secret.
Stealing blinds when IP, and knowing when to give up is the secret.
Playing the top part of your range,and tring not to out play passive calling stations is the secret.

^^^
All jokes aside with that advice alone you should be able to beat 2-5nl at ~10bb/100
thread/

 

[LD1977]

Here is something funny and very relevant.

I just burned through a ring game ticket like this (all on one table):

1) TPTK vs a set ("value betting", set just called to the end)
2) TPTK vs a set ("value betting", set just called to the end)
3) For the rest of the ticket, I shoved 99 in CO against a maniac fish in the SB with super aggro stats (he calls 100% of the time here). He shows up with QQ.

'nuff said.

 

[Cafeman]

LD1977, do you want advice or are you simply here to prove that the nanos can't be beat? I've noticed a common thread emerging where you never actively engage with other people, but instead spend your time 'proving' why you are right. It's good to have confidence, but on here you'd be better off being in 'I want to learn and be positively involved' mode, which shouldn't have any affect on your confidence. I'm confident, but I also take on board advice - after it's gone through my rigorous shit filter

So, back to you and your problems. I wouldn't suggest that playing weak tight is optimal, but at 5NL you will find it's one of the many winning strategies (on average). When I recently went from 2NL - 50NL on a site that gave me a little bit of free money, I can promise you I did not adopt a weak tight style by any stretch, however I still managed to more or less crush those games. Want to know the secret? lol You guessed it...

Did I find my HUD useful? Yes! Did I bother taking notes at 2NL? Yes! Did I mostly value bet, and only bluff in super standard/clear spots (cbetting, turn scare cards, etc.)? Yes! Did I take into account villain tendencies? Yes!!! I took it seriously, and simply played the best poker I know how to play.

It's up to you mate, but I've (we've) tried to give you advice on other threads, and you seem to end up thinking you know best. I don't expect you to believe everything everyone says, but at least you could try to consider what is being said.

Poker is a difficult game tbh, so you need to put a LOT of work into it. Value betting doesn't necessarily mean pot/pot/shove with TPTK, but it can mean, pot/pot/shove with second pair. Do you get me? You've got to consider ranges (not just preflop, but calling/raising ranges postflop etc.) and play some poker. If you can get better at working out ranges/villain tendencies etc. then you'll be able to start value betting more effectively.

BTW, if you find what I just said to be insulting and not me trying to be helpful, just **** off!

 

[Jackle43]

LD1977, do you want advice or are you simply here to prove that the nanos can't be beat? I've noticed a common thread emerging where you never actively engage with other people, but instead spend your time 'proving' why you are right. It's good to have confidence, but on here you'd be better off being in 'I want to learn and be positively involved' mode, which shouldn't have any affect on your confidence. I'm confident, but I also take on board advice - after it's gone through my rigorous shit filter

So, back to you and your problems. I wouldn't suggest that playing weak tight is optimal, but at 5NL you will find it's one of the many winning strategies (on average). When I recently went from 2NL - 50NL on a site that gave me a little bit of free money, I can promise you I did not adopt a weak tight style by any stretch, however I still managed to more or less crush those games. Want to know the secret? lol You guessed it...

Did I find my HUD useful? Yes! Did I bother taking notes at 2NL? Yes! Did I mostly value bet, and only bluff in super standard/clear spots (cbetting, turn scare cards, etc.)? Yes! Did I take into account villain tendencies? Yes!!! I took it seriously, and simply played the best poker I know how to play.

It's up to you mate, but I've (we've) tried to give you advice on other threads, and you seem to end up thinking you know best. I don't expect you to believe everything everyone says, but at least you could try to consider what is being said.

Poker is a difficult game tbh, so you need to put a LOT of work into it. Value betting doesn't necessarily mean pot/pot/shove with TPTK, but it can mean, pot/pot/shove with second pair. Do you get me? You've got to consider ranges (not just preflop, but calling/raising ranges postflop etc.) and play some poker. If you can get better at working out ranges/villain tendencies etc. then you'll be able to start value betting more effectively.

BTW, if you find what I just said to be insulting and not me trying to be helpful, just **** off!

Woop woop, this is truth^^^^


P.s. Please coach me cafe!!!

 

[Aces2w1n]

Hmm if you find anything insulting on this forum, poker is not for you... Poker is not for the thin skinned tbh

There is a lot of b.s out there, and cafeman is damn right treating 5nl seriously is the way to go... I've noticed a few switches after being on this forum and I've improved big time.

3betting now is apart of my game... Hmmm and something so simple at 5nl like not limping it makes a hell of a difference. It's stupid that something that seems so basic is so important to add to your weaponry.

 

[LD1977]

I am treating it seriously man, you wouldn't believe the amount of time and effort I spent analyzing my hand histories, lines taken in various spots, stats etc. After I exhausted my ideas I bought freaking Leak Buster and it gave me a B on the 1st run, so not like I am a complete muppet or anything.

Problem is that the stuff that is written all over various forums and Internet sources simply for some reason does not work for me against these people. I mean when I lose 30 hands to gutshots and the math says that each of their calls was mathematically incorrect and yet the "value betting" line is a MASSIVE loser, which is it? Am I running bad? Is my math incorrect? Is it actually profitable to chase 4-outers to the river?

Pot control with a TP NEVER works OOP because most of the people autobet turn checks and some attack aggressively after it so I either have to give up every time (=bleeding money) or make hero calls (which are break even despite that everybody says they should be losing). Most of the time the stats I have on them are insufficient due to small sample sizes.

I take a LOT of notes but they are often unreliable since it seems people experiment with various lines or are just balanced enough (the line they take when IP is a great example of a pretty balanced approach, "zombie" style).

The "call bets, bet on checks IP" thing is really ****ing annoying and when analyzing hands that went to showdown the range with which they do this is pretty much 100% of possible hands - I always have to guess.

The "donk bet 1/4 pot" is the same, I find that the range for this goes from weak made hands to absolute nuts, so which is it?

There is just way too much guessing since any standard line against such lines and ranges seems to be around break even.

Caffeman - I don't ignore advice nearly as much as it seems, just that I try to get some kind or argumented discussion going if possible since it is useful to discuss things. Actually I most often immediately make whatever adjustment was agreed upon by majority of people in the thread and then review how it went after a while.

 

[RodneyC86]

Problem is that the stuff that is written all over various forums and Internet sources simply for some reason does not work for me against these people. I mean when I lose 30 hands to gutshots and the math says that each of their calls was mathematically incorrect and yet the "value betting" line is a MASSIVE loser, which is it? Am I running bad? Is my math incorrect? Is it actually profitable to chase 4-outers to the river?

If someone does chase gutshots i'd be obliged to let him do it happily. As long as you were not peeing on the pot with a made hand with minbets they are definitely not ever getting any odds to draw you out with it.

You are just running bad most likely, or you are peeing into the pot (i don't think so, right?) or you are paying them off by calling tptk to a massive shove too much.

That or when you thought you were valuebetting, you were actually bluffing, which is a no no at micros except against certified weaktight regs (rarity).

 

[LD1977]

My bet size is from 2/3 pot to pot. If I know that opponent is a fish who will not fold a draw, I sometimes overbet and get coolered

Villains LOVE firing 1/4 to 1/3 pot bets when checked to IP or when donk betting, which should be bad but I can't prove it since they do it with wide ranges.

Problem is that my stats are still young (53k hands + now 8k hands of MSS), if I had like 500k hands then I would be sure which is it (bad luck or bad play). My leaks in LB are that I don't win enough when seeing flop (no kidding?), some crap about not 3betting enough from SB and such small things. Nothing stands out as far as lines taken.

 

[orangepeeleo]

2nl is easy, just dont call the fish when he raises after a draw comes in, easy really

PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP+1: $2.28 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
CO: $2.00 (VPIP: 18.00, PFR: 8.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 51)
BTN: $2.03 (VPIP: 7.41, PFR: 3.70, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 28)
SB: $1.91 (VPIP: 55.56, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 18)
BB: $1.00 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
UTG: $1.20 (VPIP: 38.89, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 18)
Hero (UTG+1): $2.15
UTG+2: $5.14 (VPIP: 39.13, PFR: 26.09, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 23)
MP: $0.59 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has Q:diamond: J:diamond:

UTG raises to $0.04, Hero calls $0.04, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold

Flop: ($0.11, 2 players) 8:heart: A:diamond: K:heart:
UTG bets $0.04, Hero calls $0.04

Turn: ($0.19, 2 players) 6:diamond:
UTG bets $0.08, Hero calls $0.08

River: ($0.35, 2 players) 3:diamond:
UTG bets $0.08, Hero raises to $0.38, UTG calls $0.30

[spoil]Hero shows Q:diamond: J:diamond: (Flush, Ace High) (Pre 45%, Flop 16%, Turn 25%)
UTG mucks T:heart: A:spade: (One Pair, Aces) (Pre 55%, Flop 84%, Turn 75%)
Hero wins $1.07
[/spoil]

 

[vinylspiros]

2nl is easy, just dont call the fish when he raises after a draw comes in, easy really

PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP+1: $2.28 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
CO: $2.00 (VPIP: 18.00, PFR: 8.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 51)
BTN: $2.03 (VPIP: 7.41, PFR: 3.70, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 28)
SB: $1.91 (VPIP: 55.56, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 18)
BB: $1.00 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
UTG: $1.20 (VPIP: 38.89, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 18)
Hero (UTG+1): $2.15
UTG+2: $5.14 (VPIP: 39.13, PFR: 26.09, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 23)
MP: $0.59 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has Q♦ J♦

UTG raises to $0.04, Hero calls $0.04, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold

Flop: ($0.11, 2 players) 8♥ A♦ K♥
UTG bets $0.04, Hero calls $0.04

Turn: ($0.19, 2 players) 6♦
UTG bets $0.08, Hero calls $0.08

River: ($0.35, 2 players) 3♦
UTG bets $0.08, Hero raises to $0.38, UTG calls $0.30

[spoil]Hero shows Q♦ J♦ (Flush, Ace High) (Pre 45%, Flop 16%, Turn 25%)
UTG mucks T♥ A♠ (One Pair, Aces) (Pre 55%, Flop 84%, Turn 75%)
Hero wins $1.07
[/spoil]

very simple, yet smart example of a standard mistake we all made at some point or the other. when someone is going over the top on a very obvious draw that just made it, the chances are you are beat. the times you are not beat are way LESS than the times that you are, THEREFOR calling when someone goes over the top of your bet on the river is usually a HUGE -EV move and a leak in MANY peoples game.

nice one peelio

 

[Titito]

hey,im not crazy,although i might sound like it. i do understand that the higher you go,the harder it is. i definitely agree with that and of course it makes sense and is a fact.

BUT, what ive noticed and what im trying to say is that it seems as though, when your playing 2NL and 5NL , the game is more unpredictable, you get called down alot lighter and people chase any 1 outer paying 80% of their stacks to catch it regardless of outs and pot odds.

This results in you taking more bad beats and more frequent suckouts. Maybe this leads to tilt(in my case) and im not on my A-game. Generally though thing are really unpredictable at these limits and you never know what your up against.

Example being getting 5 callers to your ultra high squeeze. and stuff like this. Its almost impossible to bluff anyone of anything at these stakes , which is another downside of lower stakes cause bluffing is a very powerful weapon to have in your arsenal. So basically if your playing anything more than ABC poker,then ur basically playing wrong cause creativity and bluffs have NO PLACE in the world of uber micro stakes cash games IMO.

All these points i mentioned make playing anything below 10NL unprofitable and annoying to say the least. (***IMO***)

This is exactly what i think
With this kind of atitude from other players, many times it will make you fold with good hands, just because you do not know what they are doing. Now do this a few times and your stack has disapeared, causing you to loose or to be very dificult to come back.
I know everybody has already heard this name, but it is apropriate to these players that come to the lower/small cash tables playing not caring about if they loose or win: They are "bingo players"

If you do not include these players, then of course that the most expensive the table is, the harder to win

Regarding to be easier to win these "bingo players" as Cafeman31 said (it even call these statement to be ridiculous), it is only truth if you also be a bingo players, because if you want to play safe, how can you say it is easier to give a call to a player/players that go allin at the river? You only will do that if you have a very strong hand, other way you are just like them. Now, fold some hands for being putted against the wall by moves like these (allin at the river), loose some chips at these folds, and them think if it is as easy as Cafeman31 said....

This can be one thought somewhat contradictory, but it is real

 

[Cafeman]

If you think someone is bluffing a lot, you can call them down lighter. If you think someone is calling too much, you can value bet thinner. That is all.

Ayethangyou... and don't forget to tip the waitress on the way out.

 

[RodneyC86]

This is exactly what i think
With this kind of atitude from other players, many times it will make you fold with good hands, just because you do not know what they are doing. Now do this a few times and your stack has disapeared, causing you to loose or to be very dificult to come back.
I know everybody has already heard this name, but it is apropriate to these players that come to the lower/small cash tables playing not caring about if they loose or win: They are "bingo players"

If you do not include these players, then of course that the most expensive the table is, the harder to win

Regarding to be easier to win these "bingo players" as Cafeman31 said (it even call these statement to be ridiculous), it is only truth if you also be a bingo players, because if you want to play safe, how can you say it is easier to give a call to a player/players that go allin at the river? You only will do that if you have a very strong hand, other way you are just like them. Now, fold some hands for being putted against the wall by moves like these (allin at the river), loose some chips at these folds, and them think if it is as easy as Cafeman31 said....

This can be one thought somewhat contradictory, but it is real

Nonsense boy.
These same agrofish guys go all in with any shit that even licked the board. Of course, to say they never hit hands and should lose every all in is hubris, but if you see them going all in every other hand it's time to call bullshit, grow a pair, and call with tpgk instead of folding then, for better or for worse. You just got to have a stronger all in range than them.


Seriously. What's up with saying micromicro stakes being unbeatable?????? It's easy as pie and always will be.
Are you guys seriously thinking a pro will lose if they are surrounded by 8 fish?
So fish are the world class pros now? Maybe I'll choose this guy here named with the username 72opwnz0r and stakem him for wsop then.

 

[vinylspiros]

Nonsense boy.
These same agrofish guys go all in with any shit that even licked the board. Of course, to say they never hit hands and should lose every all in is hubris, but if you see them going all in every other hand it's time to call bullshit, grow a pair, and call with tpgk instead of folding then, for better or for worse. You just got to have a stronger all in range than them.


Seriously. What's up with saying micromicro stakes being unbeatable?????? It's easy as pie and always will be.
Are you guys seriously thinking a pro will lose if they are surrounded by 8 fish?
So fish are the world class pros now? Maybe I'll choose this guy here named with the username 72opwnz0r and stakem him for WSOP then.

on pokerstars,if you hear that someone is a fish, be careful. they are the most feared players of online poker.

LESSON: DONT MESS WITH THE FISH!!
id rather stake a fish than a nit. the fish will make it deeper into the tourney.(im semi joking here)