I don't feel at all bad

Who played the hand worse?


  • Total voters
    27
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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pokerstars Game #9449785135: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/04/16 - 08:53:06 (ET)
Table 'Huenna' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: DeaDinaDitch ($4.70 in chips)
Seat 2: fimm57 ($6 in chips)
Seat 3: Bade81 ($3.75 in chips)
Seat 4: dwtrvlr ($9.65 in chips)
Seat 5: edwin1511 ($14.20 in chips)
Seat 6: sapman3883 ($32.35 in chips)
dwtrvlr: posts small blind $0.05
edwin1511: posts big blind $0.10
fimm57: posts big blind $0.10

Holecards:
Dealt to DeaDinaDitch [
heart8.gif
heartQ.gif
]
CALL sapman3883, $0.10
RAISE DeaDinaDitch , $0.30 to $0.40
FOLD fimm57
CALL Bade81, $0.40
CALL dwtrvlr, $0.35
FOLD edwin1511
CALL sapman3883, $0.30

Flop: (Pot: $1.8)
[
club5.gif
spadeK.gif
diamA.gif
]
CHECK dwtrvlr:
CHECK sapman3883:
BET DeaDinaDitch , $0.90
FOLD Bade81
CALL dwtrvlr, $0.90
FOLD sapman3883

Turn: (Pot: $3.6)
[
club5.gif
spadeK.gif
diamA.gif
] [
diamJ.gif
]
CHECK dwtrvlr:
BET DeaDinaDitch , $2
RAISE dwtrvlr, $2 to $4
CALL DeaDinaDitch , $1.40 and is all-in

River: (Pot: $11)
[
club5.gif
spadeK.gif
diamA.gif
diamJ.gif
] [
club10.gif
]

Showdown:
dwtrvlr: shows [
clubJ.gif
spadeJ.gif
] (three of a kind Jacks)
DeaDinaDitch : shows [
heart8.gif
heartQ.gif
] (a straight Ten to Ace)
DeaDinaDitch collected $9 .90 from pot

IMO he had this coming. I can't imagine a worse way to play pocket jacks. Yes I realize that Q8s isn't a power house, but I raised a limped pot hoping to steal if possible or represent top pair if I missed the flop and the table checked around to me which is exactly what happend. By the time he showed any strength at all I was completly pot committed. He really should have raised PF and either led out on the flop or better yet, folded OP to 2 overcards in the face of a preflop raiser. I did however get the obligatory "Lucky River" comment.

BTW, I'm Deadinaditch.

BTW2 I'm still there if anyone cares to join me.
 
jayneseo

jayneseo

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After that I think I'm all set playing with you, good luck though :D
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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Check flop, check turn. Pretty bad flop for c-betting that many players who called a PF raise, and no real outs except runner-runner (which you got). Probably check behind on turn, when he calls flop bet with no legitimate draws on board. If you're really determined to bluff it, I prefer a shove if you're going to call when he puts you all-in anyway.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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Check flop, check turn. Pretty bad flop for c-betting that many players who called a PF raise, and no real outs except runner-runner (which you got). Probably check behind on turn, when he calls flop bet with no legitimate draws on board. If you're really determined to bluff it, I prefer a shove if you're going to call when he puts you all-in anyway.
Hmm.
I disagree about the C-bet. The table showed weak and there was no reason for anyone to believe I didn't have the Ace or the King. I don't completely disagree about the shoving part, and it probably is the correct play here, but it smells too much like a bluff. Why would anyone who actually did have a strong hand push all-in vs. an opponent who in all likelyhood will fold?
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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I don't completely disagree about the shoving part, and it probably is the correct play here, but it smells too much like a bluff. Why would anyone who actually did have a strong hand push all-in vs. an opponent who in all likelyhood will fold?

Because the board's not drawless and your stack is smaller than the size of the pot. Any normal bet commits you. All-in's a perfectly reasonable bet with AQ, AT, something like that. You'd like him to think you have at least something like that... I mean, if he can beat AT, he's calling you no matter what anyway. You're only really bluffing out a K and I guess weird underpairs to the AK that decide to call the flop for god knows why, for example his JJ.

To your credit, if he doesn't spike his J on the turn, the bluff should almost definitely work, but then again his pre-flop and flop play of the JJ shows he's a retard, so who knows. Only problem is once he calls the flop bet, there's almost no reasonable way, combined with his PF play, we can put him on an underpair like that. But if you're inclined to bet again, I do tend to think shoving increases your fold equity a bit (even though we know he would have called either way)
 
Last edited:
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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Nice perspective. I was a 1/2 pot sized bet though so any chasers would have been getting poor odds to call and I usually try to keep the drawing hands in.
 
Last edited:
A

alan1983

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I dont think JJ is strong enough that it has to be reraised with preflop. But he should fold flop
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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I dont think JJ is strong enough that it has to be reraised with preflop. But he should fold flop
If he's not going to reraise with that hand then he shouldn't call a bet out of position, and folding is way too weak. You bet, continue, then fold to any real heat.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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If he's not going to reraise with that hand then he shouldn't call a bet out of position, and folding is way too weak. You bet, continue, then fold to any real heat.

you c-bet into 3 people with Q high and bet again on the turn, pot committing yourself after getting called on a pretty drawless flop and you're dishing out advice? ;)
 
A

alan1983

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If he's not going to reraise with that hand then he shouldn't call a bet out of position, and folding is way too weak. You bet, continue, then fold to any real heat.

Whats reraising with JJ gonna do to better that situation?

This time you had nothing and maybe wouldve folded, but say he reraises, you call, and a AKrag flop comes.

What would he have accomplished? hes still out of position and he has to open in the dark. I dont see how reraising was the absolute right thing to do?

Besides his flop call, (maybe he was fishing for some kind of gutshot of his own on turn), i cant say he played it horrendously bad...
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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you c-bet into 3 people with Q high and bet again on the turn, pot committing yourself after getting called on a pretty drawless flop and you're dishing out advice? ;)
I guess the fact that my instincts were correct means nothing. Is 5AK drawless?
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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Whats reraising with JJ gonna do to better that situation?

This time you had nothing and maybe wouldve folded, but say he reraises, you call, and a AKrag flop comes.

What would he have accomplished? hes still out of position and he has to open in the dark. I dont see how reraising was the absolute right thing to do?

Besides his flop call, (maybe he was fishing for some kind of gutshot of his own on turn), i cant say he played it horrendously bad...
Reraising would have thinned the field. In this case his lack of aggression cost him a bundle.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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I guess the fact that my instincts were correct means nothing. Is 5AK drawless?

what instincts? okay, villain's preflop is bad, but i'd suggest your flop and turn play are much, much worse. did your instinct tell you to bluff with Q high into 4 players? villain got his money in good after playing badly preflop, and you sucked out having played horribly on the flop and turn. nobody really 'deserved' anything out of the hand. sorry, i don't mean to be an ass, but it just seems like you're gloating having played badly and hit a 4-outer to me, meh.

and AK5r is pretty drawless. What big, or even decent draws could someone have on that flop?

edit: can i add a "who played the hand worse?" poll to the thread? ^^
 
Last edited:
calibanboy

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I think two players were completing for worst player award on that flop. At least the other chap put you all in when he got a made hand.

Well done for winning the hand.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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edit: can i add a "who played the hand worse?" poll to the thread? ^^
Sure. I'd welcome some constructive criticism. Despite the prevailing concensus I'm having a hard time seeing how I played this poorly. I might have checked the turn, but the flop bet was (IMO) the correct play.

And yes, as hard as it is for you to admit it, my instincts were correct. I guessed that none of my opponents had a hand strong enough to call my bet and I was right.

Oh, and it was 3 opponents, not 4. Jeeze Louize Chris, I wouldn't bluff into 4, that would be crazy.:rolleyes:
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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Yeah 3. I meant 3. >_<

Dude, you c-bet into 3 people with Q high on an AKx rainbow flop. You seemed to have made your mind up preflop to c-bet whatever happened - surely you can see why this sort of pre-emptive thinking is a bad idea?

If you can say "I was right because nobody had a strong hand", I can say "You were wrong because villain called with JJ". They're both equally ridiculous arguments. ;)

Okay, I'll list the mistakes and the reasons why they're mistakes.

1) Raising $BBs in MP with a UTG limper and a dead blind with Q8s. There's a time and a place for stealing - this isn't it. If you were on the button or if there wasn't a dead blind or if you raised more to compensate then I wouldn't be quite so harsh about this, but you're making a small raise and inducing action with everyone on the table left to act with Q8s. Not really a winning play.

2) Flop c-bet for reasons already stated.

3) Your turn bet sizing is horrible and commits you to the pot. Check-fold > shove > what you did.

Look, yes, villain had JJ, but could just as easily have had a decent A or K and been willing to go all the way with it. Any of the callers could have had Ax or a decent K because they're the sort of hands that bad players are most likely to call a raise with. With less than half a buyin at the table, do you really think you're going to scare anyone with Ax off here (and even donks with Kx, for that matter)? Saying "your instincts were correct" is horribly results-oriented - are you seriously removing Ax from three people's ranges here? When you get called on the flop are you really discounting the huge chance that villain is check-calling with Ace-something either because (a) he's a donk, or (b) it's a drawless flop and he realises he's WA/WB?

Poll added btw!
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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Yeah 3. I meant 3. >_<

Dude, you c-bet into 3 people with Q high on an AKx rainbow flop. You seemed to have made your mind up preflop to c-bet whatever happened - surely you can see why this sort of pre-emptive thinking is a bad idea?

Of course I planned a CB, but not nomatter what happend. If anyone had raised PF or flop I would have folded. Nobody did. When I bluff it's never a spur of the moment thing. I play it like I have AKs from start to finish.

If you can say "I was right because nobody had a strong hand", I can say "You were wrong because villain called with JJ". They're both equally ridiculous arguments. ;)

The two situations are nothing alike. Opp had every reason to believe he had the worst of it. 2 of my opponents had already declared their failed hands by checking to me and the one opp IP had merely called PF. He was the only uncertainty. If he had even called the flop bet, that would have been the end of it for me. Nobody had any reason to believe I was less than very strong.

Okay, I'll list the mistakes and the reasons why they're mistakes.

1) Raising $BBs in MP with a UTG limper and a dead blind with Q8s. There's a time and a place for stealing - this isn't it. If you were on the button or if there wasn't a dead blind or if you raised more to compensate then I wouldn't be quite so harsh about this, but you're making a small raise and inducing action with everyone on the table left to act with Q8s. Not really a winning play.

1 limper and a 4 x BB raise. How much should I raise w/AK. You never raise from MP? There were only 2 players ahead of me. This is 2OB, prime real estate at a full table. That I chose to make my play w/Q8s is almost irrelevant, but I do have standards even for a bluff. This hand met my minimum requirements.

2) Flop c-bet for reasons already stated.

Righto. No need to beat that dead horse again.

3) Your turn bet sizing is horrible and commits you to the pot. Check-fold > shove > what you did.
If there's one part of this I agree with it's that. I hardly even noticed my stack. If I was going to fire one more round it should have been for the rest of it.
Look, yes, villain had JJ, but could just as easily have had a decent A or K and been willing to go all the way with it. Any of the callers could have had Ax or a decent K because they're the sort of hands that bad players are most likely to call a raise with. With less than half a buyin at the table, do you really think you're going to scare anyone with Ax off here (and even donks with Kx, for that matter)? Saying "your instincts were correct" is horribly results-oriented - are you seriously removing Ax from three people's ranges here? When you get called on the flop are you really discounting the huge chance that villain is check-calling with Ace-something either because (a) he's a donk, or (b) it's a drawless flop and he realises he's WA/WB?
I'll let this stand. You presented your case well. But the results oriented comment is way off. I never dismiss any possiblities. I fully expected that one of my opponents might, and probably did have a weak ace or king, but given my previous bets I believe the streangth of the flop actually helped me. Of course there is always a chance that someone is dragging a good hand, or that some donk will think his JJ or 33 for that matter is the nuts, that's why it's a bluff. There are no certainties in this game, just opportunities. Before any of you vote on this I hope you consider both our cases fairly. I'm a big boy, and stick and stones don't hurt. And don't worry about Dorkus. He almost never bans anyone for disagreeing with him.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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OMG! I just notice that Mischman thinks I played the hand worse than the villain. Christ, I'm burning my computer now.
 
M

mischman

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What ever that means?

Thought you were "banned" from pokerstars?
 
M

mischman

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PokerStars Game #9449785135: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/04/16 - 08:53:06 (ET)
Table 'Huenna' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: DeaDinaDitch ($4.70 in chips) <-this is overall bad, sitting with half a buy in
Seat 2: fimm57 ($6 in chips)
Seat 3: Bade81 ($3.75 in chips)
Seat 4: dwtrvlr ($9.65 in chips)
Seat 5: edwin1511 ($14.20 in chips)
Seat 6: sapman3883 ($32.35 in chips)
dwtrvlr: posts small blind $0.05
edwin1511: posts big blind $0.10
fimm57: posts big blind $0.10

Holecards:
Dealt to DeaDinaDitch [
heart8.gif
heartQ.gif
]
CALL sapman3883, $0.10
RAISE DeaDinaDitch , $0.30 to $0.40 <-Fine whatever, you can raise anything preflop
FOLD fimm57
CALL Bade81, $0.40
CALL dwtrvlr, $0.35
FOLD edwin1511
CALL sapman3883, $0.30

Flop: (Pot: $1.8)
[
club5.gif
spadeK.gif
diamA.gif
]
CHECK dwtrvlr:
CHECK sapman3883:
BET DeaDinaDitch , $0.90 <-Bet into a 4 way pot where it was raised preflop and both an A and K on the Flop. these players cant fold shit and you have to assume 1 has an ace if not more. most horrid play of the hand
FOLD Bade81
CALL dwtrvlr, $0.90 <-IMO, this was the only bad play by villian. Like i said, they cant fold shit
FOLD sapman3883

Turn: (Pot: $3.6)
[
club5.gif
spadeK.gif
diamA.gif
] [
diamJ.gif
]
CHECK dwtrvlr:
BET DeaDinaDitch , $2 <-Raised preflop, called flop, threres now 3 broad way cards on board, stick your body in the vise....might as well shove your head
RAISE dwtrvlr, $2 to $4 <-Standard
CALL DeaDinaDitch , $1.40 and is all-in <-2nd worse play

River: (Pot: $11)
[
club5.gif
spadeK.gif
diamA.gif
diamJ.gif
] [
club10.gif
]

Showdown:
dwtrvlr: shows [
clubJ.gif
spadeJ.gif
] (three of a kind Jacks)
DeaDinaDitch : shows [
heart8.gif
heartQ.gif
] (a straight Ten to Ace)
DeaDinaDitch collected $9 .90 from pot
You obv knew it was bad.

Pretty easy, he only made 1 bad play of calling flop.
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

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Yeah I agree with Misch, there's not too much I like about your play here, sorry.

He should have laid down on the flop, but really that's his only mistake I think.
 
onebourbon

onebourbon

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I think so far that's a general consensus...pretty cards pre-flop though ;)
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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I won't even get into why you played this hand badly, or worse than the villain, because I think those who posted stating why you played worse covered all the bases already.

Yes, it turned out right for you this time, because you sucked out on the river, but you didn't play better than the villain--or to state that more correctly, the villain didn't play worse than you. You played a lot worse than the villain here.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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As I some of the replies I'm seeing a profound lack of understanding. Everyone, if your goung to vote, please read the hand correctly. Position, number of opponents and preflop and flop betting are all important.
3 opponents, not 4.
Bet into 1 opp not 3.
I was the only preflop (and flop) raiser.

Thought you were "banned" from pokerstars?
I thought you left CC forever.
 
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