$50 NLHE Full Ring: Trips in 3b Pot can this really be a fold?

[DunningKruger]

this thread is hilarious

Yes, I've been enjoying it.

The hand itself is not particularly interesting but the discussion that resulted from it is worth full admission.

 

[hackmeplz]

Secondly, I started by pointing out this is WHY you check the turn and go for value on the river against this kind of opponent, but you argued that the range is much wider, but now you argue that it's not.

His range for checking the turn after 3-betting and cbetting and his range for ch/shoving the turn are two entirely different ranges. I don't even think his range for checking is even thaaaaat wide just that the heavy majority of his non-air hands are hands we beat rather than hands that beat us therefore checking is giving up loads of value. You do realize that if he ch/shoves his nutted hands here we can literally ignore his nutted range in regards with whether we should bet or check (aka we only have to consider bluff-catchers and hands that will pick up enough value to call/call because they think us checking makes our range stronger when we check) because we lose exactly the same vs. those hands no matter how we play it (assuming you don't suck like I do and are able to fold when shoved on).

 

[John A]

His range for checking the turn after 3-betting and cbetting and his range for ch/shoving the turn are two entirely different ranges. I don't even think his range for checking is even thaaaaat wide just that the heavy majority of his non-air hands are hands we beat rather than hands that beat us therefore checking is giving up loads of value. You do realize that if he ch/shoves his nutted hands here we can literally ignore his nutted range in regards with whether we should bet or check (aka we only have to consider bluff-catchers and hands that will pick up enough value to call/call because they think us checking makes our range stronger when we check) because we lose exactly the same vs. those hands no matter how we play it (assuming you don't suck like I do and are able to fold when shoved on).

The problem is there's so many contradictions in your line of reasoning, and if I felt like you honestly wanted to learn from the situation, I'd point them out. But clearly you've already had the hand figured out from the beginning, so why anyone posted in here is beyond me.

 

[hackmeplz]

cool yeah I'm awful good for you

 

[youregoodmate]

Condescending much John?

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

HU for rolls?

 

[John A]

Condescending much John?

I just don't like wasting my time, that frustrates me the most, and I apologize if that comes off harsh.

Having differences of opinion, or conflicting views is great, and will happen a lot in subjective games. But if someone claims to 20 table 400nl, doesn't understand you can't bet/fold the turn, doesn't listen to anyone's feedback (not just mine) about a situation, has contradictory positions in his reason, and cops attitude I'm done.

I did learn how to add someone to ignore list though so it wasn't a total waste. I've just learned from other forums (not to be named, but one that has two numbers that add together), it's just not worth wasting your time with people who just want to re-enforce their egos. There's a lot of it when you're dealing with young male kids. I just put them on ignore now.

 

[youregoodmate]

I just don't like wasting my time, that frustrates me the most, and I apologize if that comes off harsh.

Having differences of opinion, or conflicting views is great, and will happen a lot in subjective games. But if someone claims to 20 table 400nl, doesn't understand you can't bet/fold the turn, doesn't listen to anyone's feedback (not just mine) about a situation, has contradictory positions in his reason, and cops attitude I'm done.

I did learn how to add someone to ignore list though so it wasn't a total waste. I've just learned from other forums (not to be named, but one that has two numbers that add together), it's just not worth wasting your time with people who just want to re-enforce their egos. There's a lot of it when you're dealing with young male kids. I just put them on ignore now.

We're all here to debate the hand, as it happens I said we should check back the turn in my first post, so I think we were in agreement there. However, I honestly think you should read back a couple of your posts and see how you were speaking to Hackme, from my experience of him he's been nothing but good for this forum.

 

[John A]

We're all here to debate the hand, as it happens I said we should check back the turn in my first post, so I think we were in agreement there. However, I honestly think you should read back a couple of your posts and see how you were speaking to Hackme, from my experience of him he's been nothing but good for this forum.

No, that's ok. I've already wasted enough of my time. I have a different read of hack. I've seen it too many times.

I think if you re-read my responses, I'm more than cordial despite his initial comments, which were not so much. But I can only take so much, and I've learned you can't argue with someone who is arguing both sides of the same point. He doesn't even agree with himself.

 

[onemorechance]

:heart: this thread

 

[Deco]

I bet turn and shove river. Checking the turn is appauling hindsight. Aa and weaker kings will pay us off all day here and the liklihood of villain having ak or 99 once he checks is very unlikely.

As for the checkraise I call. kt could do this as could air imo as that flop screams 'float me'.

 

[Deco]

Another thing id add is that even if there was only one street of value here we can expect calls from a wider range when we bet the turn rather than the river as our range looks far more bluffy and less potcontrolly, people rarely float, check turn then bluff the river.

 

[hackmeplz]

HU for rolls?

Trust me I wish

 

[RamdeeBen]

I call ... I mean, sure theres better combos of of Kx here sometimes, AK/KQ ; but he can take this line with pretty much any pair and especially TT/JJ/QQ/AA / Ax/9x hands too along with potential worse Kx hands + some decent draws in his range here.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

I dont know if its hindsight speaking but I quite like checking back the turn, unless we know hes capable of calling two streets with TT-QQ, which nits often arent.

Sickeningly annoying spot because he always has it here. Just always. Maybe we can find a fold but I couldnt.

I don't think checking the turn is possible, but raising on the flop wouldn't be the worst idea. Maybe you can get him to define his hand a little clearer and save some money in the process.
As played I wouldn't fold.

Big 3bet pre. I think that's where you should be finding your fold.

I would have to agree with this.
I hate calling 3bets with hands that can easily be dominated.

 

[John A]

I bet turn and shove river. Checking the turn is appauling hindsight. Aa and weaker kings will pay us off all day here and the liklihood of villain having ak or 99 once he checks is very unlikely.

As for the checkraise I call. kt could do this as could air imo as that flop screams 'float me'.

I don't think you're considering the type of player you're facing here at all. Like I said in one of my original posts, against a fishy/bad player or a better regular in a non full ring game you would bet the turn all day. However, you're facing a FR nit who is 4 betting 4% of his hands. And yes, that range will be slightly wider in a blind defense, but not by much if the guy is only raising 11% of his hands pre-flop.

There would also be value in betting the turn if we had more draws in our opponents range, to make sure we don't miss value from the times he gives up on the river. So that's not the case either. Really, this is a pretty simply math problem, and I'm pretty confident if you worked out the following, and gave reasonable estimates, you'd see my point a little clearer.

Right now you're facing the question, can I get 3 streets of value against TT-QQ/AA if you bet turn and jam river? The answer is no.

Here's why:
1) Only a % of the time those hands will call (this is 50nl FR for stacks against a nit)
2) Add that in with the times you're behind
3) You can squeeze extra value a larger percentage of the time from more of their pocket pairs
4) AND allow your opponent to hit a second best hand like Ax
5) and not stack off with the worst of it...

Supposedly this hand was posted because OP (hence the title) wanted to know if a river call was appropriate. I asked because none of the advice was really given much consideration from others, and because calling the river once you bet isn't a decision. You can't bet/fold. And I'm not trying to disrespect OP at all honestly, I just have a hard time believing any decent winning player would consider it a fold. I mean if we have basically ONLY nutted hands in his range with only one big draw AhQh and a small % of the time AA, it's an easy call.

Ace Poker Drills Poker Equity Calculator
Board: Kd Kh 9s 2h

equity Win Tie Hand Range
35.6322% 23.8767% 11.7555% [ KcJd ]
64.3678% 52.6123% 11.7555% [ AKo(100), AKs(100), AhQh(100), KJs+(100), KJo+(100), 99(100),AA(40) ]

If we add in KT and KTs, it's beyond a snap getting 2:1.

And then let's look at the final facts of the hand. The opponent has AK. Does a good player play AK like this? Well, depends on dynamics... but at this level, considering OP's range, he's losing value in most spots.

So the whole crux of the argument imo has nothing to do with the river. It's about how you get max value against each type of opponent on the turn. If you check the turn here, and opponent bets river, you call. If he checks river, you bet, and if he shoves, you fold.

So the final question is: Can you get 3 streets of value against big pairs against this type of opponent considering the above 5 math issues about this hand?

My opinion is no. In the games I play in, the answer is yes though.

 

[John A]

Trust me I wish

hehe, now you're delusional. No you don't.

Go back to 20 tabling 1knl drunk. You're the best player in the world.

 

[acky100]

is that a challenge?

actually play some hu this could be exciting, come on boys!

just like a 2k hand match at 3/6 or something

 

[John A]

Another thing id add is that even if there was only one street of value here we can expect calls from a wider range when we bet the turn rather than the river as our range looks far more bluffy and less potcontrolly, people rarely float, check turn then bluff the river.

I also made this comment earlier in this thread, which OP disagreed. Again, I don't think that is given as much consideration at 50NL FR.

I think the biggest adjustment in giving advice at lower stakes is making sure you're adjusting your thought process to the games. I've been doing this for a while, and it takes some getting used to. Because in your games and mine Deco, your comment definitely applies.

 

[hackmeplz]

hehe, now you're delusional. No you don't.

Go back to 20 tabling 1knl drunk. You're the best player in the world.

Trust me yes I do. I'll play up to 5/10, you have a revolution account right?

 

[Marginal]

Can I bet 1k on this?

Also, I am very serious

 

[Deco]

I don't think you're considering the type of player you're facing here at all. Like I said in one of my original posts, against a fishy/bad player or a better regular in a non full ring game you would bet the turn all day. However, you're facing a FR nit who is 4 betting 4% of his hands. And yes, that range will be slightly wider in a blind defense, but not by much if the guy is only raising 11% of his hands pre-flop.

A 19/11 and a 4% 3bet isn't nitty at FR.
Vinivici plays 16/13 5% ( FR leggo coach)
Cb4mvp plays 17/15 5% (FR CR coach)

Our villain is pretty much the equivalent of a 25/15 at 6max and I'm being fairly conservative to allow for a fishier players lack of positional awareness.
My 3bet% for FR is just 4% yet vs a button open it is 10% much more if I am against someone with a 60% open and a high F3B I 3bet a range of almost 20% until they show they will adjust.

 

[hackmeplz]

Can I bet 1k on this?

If you want John's side I'll do that.

 

[Marginal]

If you want John's side I'll do that.

Are you seriously asking that question? Like I would bet against you.

 

[hackmeplz]

Doubt it'll happen though. I said earlier I don't think I have a big ego because when I say stuff I can back it up. Let's see if John can do that...