TomLeach
Rock Star
Silver Level
Yep, pick SPOTS. I really wouldnt advise watching a film whilst you play, youre gonna be missing out on free information which might save/win you plenty of chips later on.
Please play at my table, I would gladly have a nit who's blinds I can steal. Also, raising every single time on the button isnt a great strategy, you need to mix it up.
Dont go HAM with the bluffs, unless you are comfortable with bluffing and can do it competently. Just pick a few spots and see a few cheap flops in position to keep yourself at a healthy stack size...
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
This is an oft quoted argument against risking MTT life for only a few BB's. I certainly wouldn't do it with any two cards. I have been caught and lost and been caught and got awful lucky, even after having run into a real hand! However, when you are close to the bubble....my main point is that you have to take a few chances, use your reads on peoples play, not just what 2 cards you have. No, you just don't willy-nilly shove unless you are a total loon.
But lets look at it in another way. Say I shove from the SB with less than stellar holdings. I only pick up the limp and the BB. Next hand, I get a real big hand and shove again, this time from the button. After just shoving, this is going to look incredibly suspicious - so much so that I may very well get a call, especially if it's a raised pot. I look like a loon, I'm in a stealing spot, and I look like i'm willing to risk it all for the blinds! No, it doesn't always work like this, yet you would be surprised after a long run of bad cards that a big hand would finally hit you after you make such a play.
Plus, lets say you get caught yet survive. Now the table thinks your silly-loose, and so you tighten up now! And you will get calls, trust me, if you beat someones A-K with K-rag suited. So, I advertised I am a loon, and will later get paid off. It's the reverse if you always show up with big hands...now you shift gears and loosen up, as they think you have a big hand on a big card board the other player does not have a big piece of. Then you can bluff them.
But you never, ever, just sit and wait for big hands, and only play those. You will get eaten alive. A loose shove on occasion can also keep people in check, as they just are not sure what you might do when they bet!
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
The biggest problem for any player is predictability. From what you just said, you are likely to get blown off a lot of hands. And you just cannot survive long enough in an MTT waiting for AA and KK.
And since when is AA or KK guaranteed to double you up? If that is all they see you do, they will just fold, screwing you and your stack. You extend that to AK suited from UTG and I might call in position and run you down on any board without paint, hand or not. If I think you are silly enough to call me down with AK on a nothing board I have ANY piece of, you are mine. If I think you will fold it with no connection, I'll bet with nothing. Either way, you are screwed.
I would occasionally raise from UTG with any reasonable hand - suited and two gaps or less or any pair. Hey, they will fear you only after thinking they just do not know when you have a hand or not. So if you raise UTG and fold after all paint hits, they now know you are dangerous and may or may not have a hand when raising UTG.
TomLeach
Rock Star
Silver Level
Its just such an exploitable strategy.
Unfortunately i feel as though you missed the point i was making which is, you dont need to shove all your chips in to bluff (in fact it looks less like a bluff because if you had a real strong hand KK or AA, you want to get as much value from it as possible, and you may not necessarily get that from open shoving), anyway, lets do some calculations on you theory.
Shoving with air/reasonable hand and then either not getting called (winning the limp and 1BB) - 70%?
Shoving and getting called by a hand that you then lose to (losing all your stack and tournament life) - 15-20% (im assuming players are reasonable, your stack size is around 15-20BB and they will only call with AQs and 99 and above.)
Shoving, and winning the showdown (doubling up and taking the additional blind (assuming only one caller)) - 10-15%. Im going with the premise here that youre generally getting called by better, and hoping to have two live cards, in which case youre not as huge an underdog.
so lets say your stack is 17BB on average, that means 70% of the time you get a return of 19BB (which is expected value of 13BB)
17.5% chance of the time you are losing your whole stack. ( 0 expected value)
12.5% of the time you double up plus the additional big blind 35BB (4.4BB)
So (its pretty late) if ive done the math correctly, you gain .4BB for the risk of 17BB and any chance of cashing... Thats not including any odds that the limper is slowplaying a big pair. When you could have raised to maybe 4-5BB and taken the pot cheaply.
I understand what youre saying about advertising, but the odds of getting a monster that youd be happy shoving (you will have the button next hand) is fairly slim, and to then shove and get almost zero value from it, seems a very silly play.
Anyway, someone please check my numbers, im pretty tired and I think my percentages may have been to lenient, but feel free to point out some errors..
R
revskip
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Michael Paler's advice was spot on about playing a wider range although I don't really love open pushing with weak hands unless you are playing the nittiest of the nits. In situations where I go real card dead I look for situations where I can make moves without cards. Is there a real loose player who sees a lot of flops but frequently folds to continuation bets? Look to see flops with him and steal the pot on the flop or turn. Is there a rock in the big blind who will always fold with everything but premium hands? Raise his blind liberally. Take the extra time you have when you are card dead and use it to study your opponents. If you are using tracking software make use of the note feature and make future decisions easier.
zEric7x
Visionary
Silver Level
Duck Tales is one of my favorite cartons! I wasn’t old enough to watch it when it originally aired but I have seen reruns and I watch the show even now. Sorry for getting a bit off topic but I wanted to mention that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boOsfs903tM
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
I never go too wide or shove unless the opportunity presents itself. It really has to be right time, right spot, right players to act/acted, right stack (my own/oppanents), etc; It does not come up every other hand, but in MTT it is critical, IMHO, to keep a sharp eye out for these opps. Also pay close attention to who can knock you out if you get too frisky! I often see the right move at the right time into the wrong player!
I am always surprised at how many weak players will call huge raises with almost anything decent, but will not commit all their chips ever - these are the ones I might shove on early in a game. And I don't always want a fold! If I catch a guy playing every ace, weak or not, I might shove with a strong ace looking to take a chance and double up, if I think he will call.
I highly recommend looking at the "Absence of Aces" chart in Super System. It can really open your eyes.
R
Raven5150
Enthusiast
Silver Level
First off patience is key. It shows the rest of the table that you only wait for monster hands. Which makes you seem like a strong player. However, this also makes you look like a weak player because you said you are forced to fold when you actually do try making a move.
Try this...
Try raising in position when it is folded to you. It doesn't matter what hand you have, and always be prepared to bet the flop.
Most of the time you will accumulate chips this way.
Also if it is folded to you and the person to your left is the dealer, you can try stealing the pot in this position as well. Try raising a little more than a min raise.
I'm not saying do this all the time, only when you are card dead. Sometimes you just got to act like you have aces or something. It pays off trust.
I agree with this guy. You need to be willing (if you keep getting bad cards) to start putting more chips into the pot, with your crap hands. Like he said not all the time, but you need to steal blinds in those situations. Being in position is crucial to.
N
nygmen2007
Visionary
Silver Level
I know it sucks, but I have to say open up range.. If you get blinded down by not playing you basically bought in to give away chips. If you make moves and they do not work at least you are playing.. There are many others who will say wait until the cards turn, but what if it does not.. Then you have the situation where the marginal hands would hit when you fold and there is nothing more frustrating than that. I have had that happen to me so much. Play crap and win and play good cards and lose.. It is the tournament and what you feel.. I open up my range and make more moves..
Jacki Burkhart
long winded rambler...
Silver Level
A lot of people are saying "keep waiting for cards" and since we are in the tournament section...I just cannot agree.
First....there is a lot more to consider than simply "I've gone card dead"
#1 how big is my stack? If you've gone card dead and you have something like 10-15bbs then that's just too damned bad, you're gonna have to get it in with less then stellar cards. Let's say you jam with J8, and get looked up by AK...you've still got 45% equity, when you factor in the dead money not a bad spot.
#2 How tight/loose is my table? If you've got a table of calling stations it's gonna be tough to steal. If you've got a table full of NITS, TAGS, or LAGS then your image should help you a little bit to steal a few pots
#3 Is the BB a defender?
It's a tournament. We can't wait around forever. it's better to get it in with a 3bet shove with something like J8s and 17bbs and get looked up by a hand like AK than it is to blind down to 6 or 7bbs waiting for a hand like AK and then if you're lucky enough to double up you're still not out of the woods... You NEED to get your stack in there when a double up still really matters.
If you have 30+ BBs then you can still be somewhat patient. gather reads and try to play some speculative hands in position.
If you have 20-30BBs then try to play a wider range in position and be really aggressive if you flop some decent equity (middle pair, or a good draw).
If you have 15-22 BBs then pick a player who opens too often and jam on his opening raise with a wide range. If you get called and double thru now players at the table won't know what to make of your image.
if you have 10-15 BBs you're running out of options. You can jam over 1 limper and have OK fold equity, but you'll get looked up a lot too. Pretty much if it folds to you in late position you're going to have to think about getting it in with any decent hand. You can either jam preflop, or raise preflop and then jam the flop if they check to you. Or if you're out of position, jam on any raggedy flops, or when you flop a draw.
if you have under 10bbs you can't be too picky. You've either screwed up, or gotten massively unlucky and you're on a wing and a prayer, so this is no time for the faint of heart. You're probably going to get it in behind and have to get lucky. Ideally, you just want to be live in a big pot.
As strategic, serious poker players we have to have better plans than "just waiting for good cards" that is not really PLAYING poker, that is just letting the deck decide who wins.
First....there is a lot more to consider than simply "I've gone card dead"
#1 how big is my stack? If you've gone card dead and you have something like 10-15bbs then that's just too damned bad, you're gonna have to get it in with less then stellar cards. Let's say you jam with J8, and get looked up by AK...you've still got 45% equity, when you factor in the dead money not a bad spot.
#2 How tight/loose is my table? If you've got a table of calling stations it's gonna be tough to steal. If you've got a table full of NITS, TAGS, or LAGS then your image should help you a little bit to steal a few pots
#3 Is the BB a defender?
It's a tournament. We can't wait around forever. it's better to get it in with a 3bet shove with something like J8s and 17bbs and get looked up by a hand like AK than it is to blind down to 6 or 7bbs waiting for a hand like AK and then if you're lucky enough to double up you're still not out of the woods... You NEED to get your stack in there when a double up still really matters.
If you have 30+ BBs then you can still be somewhat patient. gather reads and try to play some speculative hands in position.
If you have 20-30BBs then try to play a wider range in position and be really aggressive if you flop some decent equity (middle pair, or a good draw).
If you have 15-22 BBs then pick a player who opens too often and jam on his opening raise with a wide range. If you get called and double thru now players at the table won't know what to make of your image.
if you have 10-15 BBs you're running out of options. You can jam over 1 limper and have OK fold equity, but you'll get looked up a lot too. Pretty much if it folds to you in late position you're going to have to think about getting it in with any decent hand. You can either jam preflop, or raise preflop and then jam the flop if they check to you. Or if you're out of position, jam on any raggedy flops, or when you flop a draw.
if you have under 10bbs you can't be too picky. You've either screwed up, or gotten massively unlucky and you're on a wing and a prayer, so this is no time for the faint of heart. You're probably going to get it in behind and have to get lucky. Ideally, you just want to be live in a big pot.
As strategic, serious poker players we have to have better plans than "just waiting for good cards" that is not really PLAYING poker, that is just letting the deck decide who wins.
PapaC
Legend
Silver Level
what's even worse than running bad cards, is good cards you call with do not come to the board, and the one's you fold comes to the board. In that $5000 tourny I caught K10 suited and only 3 in the hand. The first limps and the other goes all in, so I was having my cards not come to the board, so I fold and 2 10s come to the board and the other player calls the all in. One had 88 and wins the pot. Would have been sitting pretty on that one.
TomLeach
Rock Star
Silver Level
Only three left to act? Or three on the table?
You probably shouldnt play future cards based on what cards have/havnt come out before...
maik357
Rock Star
Silver Level
I have experianced such cases also and a few times after I thought this is useless today, or even hopeless. Down to almost 1/3 starting chips. I decided to call one hand. My thoughts were I am going to lose anyway it seems. Might as well try before the chips all disappear. First look no match I fold. Next round I look and boom trips. One goes all in. Having naturally much more chips as me but I was like ok maybe I will get some chips. Another goes all in, and boom. There it was I had a little over the starting chips. The mood swung to good and the game lasted much longer as I had thought at the first hour. That lesson had taught me not to give up so easy and stay calm because as we all know anything can happen at Poker.
IM deusXmachina
Rock Star
Silver Level
I generally follow one of three courses of action when this happens(and it is a frequent occurence) 1) keep folding and stay the course to making good decision which may/may no. Pay off. 2) Get aggressive and create a different table image, hopefully get lucky and maybe you dont run into a proverbial brick wall 3) Lose focus, and consequently all $T chips in play. I have tried all of these successfully, but the first works best...
Side note, i have had to fold for nearly 4 hours in Live events to play just a handfull of big winner hands. So dont get frustrated after less than one hour, Patience is a virtue after all!
Side note, i have had to fold for nearly 4 hours in Live events to play just a handfull of big winner hands. So dont get frustrated after less than one hour, Patience is a virtue after all!
Rawdeal1955
Rock Star
Bronze Level
I think every one has had that miserable day. I watch what others are starting hand and adjust mine, hope for cards to come my way. Poker is a game of patience and so time we don't have any. Until come our way good cards to you.
R
Raisindepth
Enthusiast
Silver Level
sometimes (roughly 4/9 tournaments but sometimes more) i run so shit i just simply can not play the hands dealth and have to trust my readings, style and the board. If you have a good image (folding so much is quite a tight image) you can steal and bluff a little on good positions. but if you play a hand.. be as agressive as you safely can be. so try not to commit because your hand is shit but try to look like you hold a hand which hopefully connects on the flop (A/K or a Q) if you keep controle over the pot but can keep up preassure they most likely fold. ofcours you cant do this to the table maniac and your story has to be sollid then a decent player should fold. if he doesnt ofcours shut down and prepair to fold. if you cant play the hand play the player. and you need a little luck.
greats
p.s. this morning i played a small tournament first 45 minutes played only 3 hands.
starting stack was 1200 and after 45 minutes i had 15k so if you do get the hand just need the right stacks to call you and stack you
greats
p.s. this morning i played a small tournament first 45 minutes played only 3 hands.
starting stack was 1200 and after 45 minutes i had 15k so if you do get the hand just need the right stacks to call you and stack you
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Propane Goat
Grinder and paint make me the welder I ain't
Moderator
I don't remember exactly where I heard this but I think it was a comment in one of the wsop FT live streams this year: you can't win pots when you fold.
It sounds so stupid and simplistic but it's true, in the last few months I've been working mightily on not being dependent on premium hands and while there have been some slips and falls, there have also been some very nice successes. I used to be one of those who played almost nothing but premiums, and if you're at a table with people who are paying attention, you might as well be playing with your cards face up. If you're playing one hand an hour, it's pretty obvious what you have when you finally do enter a pot.
Once you break the shackles of being card dependent, winning pots over and over again that you wouldn't have won otherwise is the best feeling in the world, and there is the added benefit of getting much more action on your premium hands too. The one caveat though is that I am looking for situations where I'm the initial raiser, even with hands like J9s, 22, etc., instead of calling other people's raises with marginal hands, and I'm also not raising with this kind of range against calling stations.
It sounds so stupid and simplistic but it's true, in the last few months I've been working mightily on not being dependent on premium hands and while there have been some slips and falls, there have also been some very nice successes. I used to be one of those who played almost nothing but premiums, and if you're at a table with people who are paying attention, you might as well be playing with your cards face up. If you're playing one hand an hour, it's pretty obvious what you have when you finally do enter a pot.
Once you break the shackles of being card dependent, winning pots over and over again that you wouldn't have won otherwise is the best feeling in the world, and there is the added benefit of getting much more action on your premium hands too. The one caveat though is that I am looking for situations where I'm the initial raiser, even with hands like J9s, 22, etc., instead of calling other people's raises with marginal hands, and I'm also not raising with this kind of range against calling stations.
Jacki Burkhart
long winded rambler...
Silver Level
very well said. not only can you not afford to wait in tournaments, BUT when you wait for premiums it's so obvious what you have that you get no action EXCEPT when somebody can beat your obvious premium hand. Another good reason why you can't just follow the old advice: "sit tight man. the cards will come"