We've got to talk about the clock....again.

[SpanRmonka]

It's only too short if someone is plugging values into ICM or a GTO SOLVER or another such toolset. (WHICH IS CHEATING AND NOT PERMITTED)
There is plenty of time to make a decision.

And for goodness sake, we're playing a free game which means very little in the end. Sure there are some prizes, but in the end, its about learning and having fun and socialising...not really about Hoodies and card protectors.

I struggle to understand what must be going on in your mind if you require more time.
Perhaps there is something I'm missing? What is it that you are doing that means the time you have is insufficient?

Come on mate, I disagree with you and you resort to bordeline accusations of cheating. You can do better.

As Martin said, when multi tabling, or getting distracted at home etc, its easy to miss half your time as the browser doesn't pop up. Then on top of this the time IS shorter than other sites, or at least it used to be. I've not played league for a few seasons.

 

[puzzlefish]

But I was talking about POKER LEAGUE which is exclusively on Replay poker and you can't really play multiple games on Replay (at least not on the phone).

Do you only play on your phone? I play on my laptop specifically to multi-table on multiple sites.

 

[Emily Trott]

Well, it is a legit point of view. But running the clock seems to be trending at the moment. Take a look at the final 2 minutes of the Super bowl... Maybe it's done by weak players who want to stop better players from seeing a lot of hands?

"Four minutes is an eternity in this game." - Raymond Berry

 

[nerobs9]

There was a similar topic, be careful, everyone who delays time now will attack you with the words "This is not prohibited by the rules!"

I do not like such players, but they are still right)

 

[wavetune]

I do not like such players, but they are still right)

technically right, but the point of the time bank is not to delay time, but to give the player time to think, if before the prizes you can still understand the meaning of delaying time, then at the beginning of the game I do not understand what is the point of delaying time

 

[YLAN]

@ObbleeXY I emphatize and actually share your concerns. You're right that there is no reason in the game for running the clock. Have observed this too in a couple of Individual League tourneys I have participated (am not playing in Team League) in Replay Poker.

The problem is actually the tourney structure. It is high stacked 3,000 starting chips, low 10/20 starting blind & long 9 minutes to next level. Heck, you could sit-out an hour come back and still be in the table! The early levels are so uninteresting and players are just waiting for blinds to level up. Heck, you could have AA and min raise, everyone fold getting just 30 chips from the blinds. Not worth playing the early levels.

Early level structure is so bad I find myself dozing while playing & most of the time "milking the clock". Players are not engaged and find other things to do during the early levels like browse forum, read/ reply mails, chat, etc such that they almost always "milk the clock" waiting for next levels. I really cannot blame the players.

To be better though I suggest to re-format the tourney where players get engaged from the start. Perhaps a turbo structure.

Really hoping that @Admin consider improving the tourney structure next season.

 

[nerobs9]

technically right, but the point of the time bank is not to delay time, but to give the player time to think, if before the prizes you can still understand the meaning of delaying time, then at the beginning of the game I do not understand what is the point of delaying time

Before the prizes, the meaning is also incomprehensible, since synchronous distributions are included

 

[cracker]

The funniest thig about these players is when in the small blind and everyone ahead of them folds they run the clock and then fold to the big blind who is sitting out.

 

[Roobz75]

I'm seeing it in both Team and Individual league. People needlessly running the clock.
I get it -- sometimes there is method toi the madness...but what I'm referring to really is madness.
Early game.
League Games on Replay.
Everyone has the same stack.
There are no antes.

Why oh why are you running the clock to zero then?

Essentially, you are giving yourself a distinct disadvantage in the game.
You are seeing fewer cheap hands.
So instead of seeing, say, 30-45 hands per hour, instead you're seeing half that.
Given that the blinds are so cheap in early game, there is no benefit/savings from slowing the play down at this point in the game.

The only benefit PERHAPS, is that some players are tilted by this behaviour. The problem though is that they'll all be tilted TOWARDS YOU.
Generally, I try not to annoy those around me at the table. Getting a target painted on your back is not advantageous to league scoring.

Once you get to late game, where the blinds are problematic or the tables aren't full -- sure...run the clock a bit...if you're in a strong stack lead for example. It can put pressure on players when they know they might only have a few more opportunities for a hand.

But for Early game time-wasters? It's officially open-season.

I'm glad you've put this out there. I wasn't so scripted in detail as you, but I don't understand it either. Seems to take ages to play the first hand. One of my pet Poker hates. Just running down the clock as bad practice.

 

[Roobz75]

I don't think it's entirely deliberate in Replay, for me it's more about the fact the table doesn't pop up as it's browser based and other players might simply forget that part or be playing other games in rooms where the table does pop up at the same time.

This is where it's prominent. In Replay Poker. Start to lose interest in the game overall, when it drags on.
Just incidentally, is it possible to change your clock time individually? When I'm on there, I barely get 10 secs before it sits me out. Others seem to get treble that.

 

[daibert murillo]

In particular and some of my colleagues we want shorter tournaments, no more tournaments of 3 hours or more; we want short tournaments.

 

[June4Spades]

It annoys me too. I try not to do it myself, but I guess sometimes people play too many tables and can't manage those.

 

[antonis32123]

You play on Replay poker on the browser . When it's your time to play the table doesn't appear on top of all other windows , like it happens with normal poker Apps . So time runs out and you sit out , again sit in , again sit out . The sound when it's your turn to act on replay is not so good for me . I think that's the case with most players on Replay . On other poker rooms and apps you don't see this very often . But if you play on mobile and you have many apps open and use or watch them and switching from one to another , then you might delay your turn to act on the poker App , time bank starts and other players just wait , which is bad , but it can happen .

Anyway , if you play only one CC event , these delays might make you feel bored or angry . But if you play many games at the came time , it is ont bother you , you won't notice it so much

Now there is an app for replay , I checked it , saw that homegames are not available there yet, wtf ....

 

[YLAN]

ClubGG seems to be a better app with real time leaderboard update. More events could probably be played there in the future.

 

[antonis32123]

ClubGG seems to be a better app with real time leaderboard update. More events could probably be played there in the future.

Very good suggestion .

ClubGG seems better than Replay poker or PS homegames

 

[Akuana]

I agree with you. I do this when I play at several tables at once. And in these moments I hate myself.

 

[dallam]

@ObbleeXY
The problem is actually the tourney structure. It is high stacked 3,000 starting chips, low 10/20 starting blind & long 9 minutes to next level. Heck, you could sit-out an hour come back and still be in the table! The early levels are so uninteresting and players are just waiting for blinds to level up. Heck, you could have AA and min raise, everyone fold getting just 30 chips from the blinds. Not worth playing the early levels.

That's a big point in my eyes, and I do feel that games with antes are improving the game itself. Almost believe that without antes its just not playable, because the risk-reward is not paying out. That's why generally agressive players are trying to be even more agros, at least to building up bigger pots and not the whole table arriveing as a small stack and gamble when it's time.

Cause You and as ObbleeXY reflected as well, a bit later stage the blinds goes up very fast, so if you not gained a proper stack then from a 'cash game style' you found yourself into a 'short stack game' without any transition!

About time-banking: I found most of the League players just as solid and experienced that they didn't do this in every hand just maybe taking their times when they are involved in actions. I had some occassions with Replay poker when I pressed the fold button and in real life only few seconds later my hand were actually folded! So sometimes the site itself making others slow.

In general I agree with your points, however couldn't really mention anyone who is timebanking all the time, so.. A better structure would solve this probably, if its possible in the future.

 

[lauestla]

I think these things happen often on Replay because we play on a browser and not via a software. I don't play the League anymore because I had a very bad experience on Replay : sometimes I was disconnect for no reason, sometimes I did not get a place at my supposed table, sometimes I pressed a button (fold for example ) but got no reaction . So I am not surprised that a lot of League players seem to play very very slowly on Replay... the room itself slows down the game.

 

[Emily Trott]

I think these things happen often on Replay because we play on a browser and not via a software. I don't play the League anymore because I had a very bad experience on Replay : sometimes I was disconnect for no reason, sometimes I did not get a place at my supposed table, sometimes I pressed a button (fold for example ) but got no reaction . So I am not surprised that a lot of League players seem to play very very slowly on Replay... the room itself slows down the game.

Those disconnects are definitely a problem on Replay. What I've started doing in the league games, the only thing I do there, is to keep the lobby and the table both open. If there is a glitch like the button you mentioned, or the cards not being dealt quickly enough, I'll "X" out the table and click the "Play Now" button in the lobby. I've actually picked up a feeling for when it is going to do something, like you can't post something in the chat, and will do it while the other players are still in a hand.

 

[GeckoAA]

On Replay its VERY easy to use all of your time when you need to think because they really don’t give you much time and there is no time bank. For how seriously people play in the CC Leagues, I consider the game time reasonable -about 2-3 hours total. If you’re playing league games, it most certainly is not about the money, its more about the love of the game. I love the game so it does not bother me because Im the one choosing to be there playing, knowing full well that the only “time” I have any control over is my own. I must really love poker and Cards Chat because I still choose to play at Replay (least favourite place to play ). What others choose to do with their time is out of my control, so I don’t allow it to bother me unless Im having a really bad day and in that case its definitely better for me to not play at all on those days.

Not worrying/annoyed about things I cant control is a philosophy I use not only in poker but life in general. The only thing we each have control over, is ourselves. If I got myself all worried/annoyed over what other people are doing all the time I‘d probably have high blood pressure or be dead already from a massive heart attack, and thats just not worth it, so its not worth it for me to worry about things I have no control over.

Honestly, I hope my post helps you because with your chat towards me on Friday………well ……you just might be taking yourself down a very unhealthy path of unnecessary stress.

On Friday when we were both playing I felt attacked by your presumptuous assumptions as to how I used my time and in case you didn’t know, you really peeved me off and I don’t tend to anger very quickly. Not that its any of your business how I play or use my time to begin with but I am probably one of the quickest players in the Team League as I usually always have my mind made up and the button pressed long before it’s my turn but then there are those hands, that I just need more time to think and in Replay, during those hands I could use a slight bit more time. When I have a hand I need to think about while playing in Replay…..my time always almost runs out or does run out. I have been playing poker for a while now but still consider myself a newb and still have lots of learning to do especially in the CC League games. There are so many amazing players to play and learn with/from, including yourself . I truly admire ALL players in the League and always look forward to my game day. One of the other reasons I usually try to have my button pressed before its my turn is because so many times on Replay I have had troubles with not being able to play a really good hand at all because of lag or whatever glitches occur.

Shortly after playing on Friday I went on CC to post in our team thread and then went to see what new threads of discussion there was and lo and behold……I found this/your thread and I must say it gave me a chuckle, thats for sure. I was then prepared to come here and give you a piece of my mind because during the game you were giving me grief for no good reason. The thought even crossed my mind, that you were picking on me because Im female and that I would most likely just sit there and take it. Anyhow I usually like to think things over before I do or say something I may regret later. So I did just that, and I decided that I felt more sorry for you than angry and that maybe I could say something that would be helpful instead of a blast of anger.

There are many other reasons that people use their ”time” playing poker and yes Im aware that you have considered them all. When playing online “time” is one of the only ways we can try to toy with our opponent’s mind as to what cards we really have. So yes occasionally I do use my time to try to muddle things up a bit but certainly not in Replay…..they don’t give enough time to even bother.

I agree that time is precious and highly valued and as I get older (57) it feels even more precious But so is our health and getting ourselves all worked up in a lather over what others choose to do with their time is pointless because it will get you no where but 6 feet under. Maybe try to look at it in a different light….while others are taking time, you now have time to take a sip of tea…..take a deep relaxing breath…..pause and reflect that maybe someone is having internet issues that you don’t have at the moment and count your blessings. I also use this type of thinking for things such as red lights while driving. Instead of being annoyed with the red light I use it to my advantage and relax. We can change the way we feel about something by changing the way we look at something.

I know what Im about to give as an example is going to make this post even longer but….hey….oh well it’s my time to choose and I really want to help you feel less stressed about this, especially when you would consider quitting the league games over it.

A while ago when my kids were young, we lived in a very small house where my bedroom was just off the living room. I am a very light sleeper and have troubles falling asleep because I am so excited about life, I don’t want to sleep and have always been like that. Anyhow, when my kids were old enough to stay up later they would want to watch movies or play video games at a reasonable volume, also laughing and talking (trying to whisper knowing how their mom was) but man……was I sleep deprived and frustrated for a while. Yes I could tell them to turn it down, but it would have be too low for them to enjoy. So I thought about this for a good long time and came up with an idea that maybe it was the way I was thinking about it that was causing ME problems. So I changed my thinking pattern. I helped myself realize that the sounds of my family enjoying themselves was a beautiful thing and should actually help me sleep better instead. It took time but after a while it was like I could use their sounds like relaxing meditation and fall asleep peacefully knowing I was safe, they were safe and right there where I could hear them. This was a revelation to me and was the start of me making other changes as well. Like red traffic lights, those used to really annoy me too .

Change your stars (from the movie “A knights Tale”) ObbleXY make the time that other players take…..work for you and not against you and perhaps your League poker games will be more relaxing and a joy once more .

 

[bowserdon]

Its not rocket science call, raise or fold.Why delay the game??

 

[Luvepoker]

I get the reason for people not like the once who time down every hand. There are people who do that every single action they take from beginning to the end of the hand. I do tend to think through my play when in a hand. Sometime i may take 5 or 10 seconds to make a decision but its not pretending to be a player on TV or being a jerk but honestly thinking of what is my best play. This being said most hands are quick and easy decisions and I dont run out any of the clock but there maybe time i do use more time than in other games. Just my 2 cents.

As for replay poker issue, sadly there are many time I am waiting on someone to make a play when I am suddenly folded. Other time I am mored to a new table and it does not move me and I am sitting there restarting the program to get my game going. I do wonder how many others have these issues as I do.

 

[Fivefor]

You know this post would have at least some validity if it was actually supported by any real data.
You make a number of claims based on anecdotal experiences from playing in a few tournaments and then declare it as some kind of widespread emergency/problem without any supporting evidence.

Just because you have happen to see a few people who are running their clock to zero in Individual or Team League does not mean they are doing it on purpose to slow the game down and it certainly does not mean this is a widespread problem that is affecting all players, the Leagues or poker in general.

It would also help your OP argument if you didn't make ridiculous claims such as:
"So instead of seeing, say, 30-45 hands per hour, instead you're seeing half that."
Really? Are we really now only getting 15-23 hands per hour because of this? Where is your data to support this claim? Try to avoid making hyperbolic statements if you want a serious discussion on something that you think is important. I think this would fall under your "dripping with sarcasm...but no substance" reply to kitchy65 in Post #22.

You also state in your OP this false claim:
"Given that the blinds are so cheap in early game, there is no benefit/savings from slowing the play down at this point in the game."
I think it would be obvious that less skilled players benefit from playing less hands vs. better skilled players. The deeper a tournament is and the longer the blind levels always benefits higher skilled players. Shallow tournaments create higher variance and levels the playing field for less skilled players. But that point aside, you still have ZERO evidence that the behaviour you are witnessing is being done on purpose. Let me repeat that, you have ZERO evidence that players are doing this on purpose to slow the play down at the early stages of the game. ZERO. Another claim under the "...but no substance" category...

Let's move on to @Martin's post (#9) where he makes some completely legitimate points. I loved the fact that you respond to basically everyone who agrees with you at any level but completely ignore Martin's post. Roobz75 actually responds (post #35) to Martin's post but Roobz's post finishes by asking if we can have more individual time in Replay because he finds the amount of time we get per decision to be too short. SpanRmonka in post #10 also thinks the amount of time we get in Replay is too short but you didn't respond to him either. I also think we don't get much time on Replay to make decisions plus the fact that we get zero time bank for when we really need to think about a big hand later in the game. But replies like that don't fit your narrative so I guess it's best to ignore them than have a full rounded discussion where other valid opposing viewpoints are recognized and taken into consideration.

I'm going to assume that your time wasting argument (Post #15) is also trying to make the point that this behaviour adds up over the course of the tournament and thereby makes the tournament last longer than it needs to last. This line of arguing got me to thinking and so I looked up that actual data on how long the average game time took in Fall 2022 season compared to the first 31 games in Winter 2023 season. Here's the cold hard data:
Fall 2022 Average season game time: 2 hours 18 minutes
Winter 2023 Average game time - 31 games: 2 hours 10 minutes

So the actual data shows that the average game duration this season is about 8 minutes shorter vs Fall 2022 season despite all of this time "deliberate" time wasting behaviour that you claim is getting out of control this season.... so much for arguing that tournaments are longer because of alleged "time wasters"...

So given the fact that your "evidence" is all anecdotal, that you don't actually know why players are using up their decision time and the fact that the average tournament length is shorter this season I really don't see that there is any problem that the CC League needs to "reign in". Not to mention the fact that there is likely nothing that can even be done about it. And is a little over 2 hours really "too long" to expect a 20-30 person tournament to play if you make it to the very end? Hardly seems so.

Unfortunately, however, casting a dark shadow over this entire imagined problem, there is an actual real and bigger problem that clearly does need to be "reigned in" and that is abusive, belittling and badgering chat behaviour such as yours JT that I witnessed in last Friday's League game. You falsely and erroneously decided that my wife Shelley (GeckoAA) was deliberately running her clock down to zero when this was absolutely not the case - I was watching her play and she was specifically taking time to decide what she wanted to do given the preceding action on the table - nothing more and nothing less. But why let that stop you from going after someone for absolutely no good reason at all right??

Having read your OP claim that it is now "Open-Season" on alleged "time wasters" it now makes sense you've decided that your "open-season solution" to this problem is to badger and belittle anyone whose behaviour even remotely resembles the mold you've imagined for this "problem". Or, more concerningly, perhaps you've decided that it will just be the female players that will be the target of your ire regardless of whether or not you actually have any evidence that they are doing this on purpose. I mean seriously, god forbid anyone ever take their full 10 seconds to make a decision or 2 on the Replay site during early league play...

If any behaviour will drive players (and especially female players) from playing in this league or playing poker in general it will be verbal or chat harassment at the table. So it is NOT the clock we've got to talk about JT, we need to talk about you rethinking your chat harassment of other players at the table. This is especially so towards female players because I have a hard time believing that you would have gone after someone like @Martin or your captain @Andyreas in the same way that you went after my wife this past Friday if you thought either of them were deliberately wasting their time. And let me remind you that you did it without any understanding whatsoever as to why she was using her full clock time - you assumed the worst and off you went.

So let's be clear about one thing JT, if any table behaviour needs to stop it is the way you are making other players feel uncomfortable with chat harassment based on speculation while playing in what is supposed to be a fun and relaxing league game.

 

[mariale_1990]

I agree with Martin, many do not do it with the purpose of annoying, the 2 seasons that I played the league in replay poker I had some difficulties and many times the clock reached zero and was absent, I really believe that it seemed that I was doing it on purpose but it wasn't like that, there are many things, internet failure, a not so good laptop that freezes in the middle of the game and another series of things that other people can say