Unethical or good strategy?

[detourglr]

I dont think this is collusion.. You had a crappy hand. though people say to call anythign in this situation. I hate people with this strategy. Myself I think you give the short stack a easy double up.
now if you had a good starting hand then that is a different story.

 

[doncaster]

I say well played...excellent strategy.
You are playing to win,not to help the other big stacks win.
If you called and lost the extra 4k you would've chipped up the SS even more and the other [players would've thought you were chip dumping.
I say "never give water to a snake."
You did the best decision for yourself,not the others.
You entered the tournament to win it..and you won it..well done.
It's your money,your chips,your decisions.
Good play and by the way,thank you for posting !

 

[ScottieDuncan]

U play to win ever how your cards fall. If not intentional, which I can see it was not, that is your prerogative. Good job.

 

[aznman08]

Frankly its the other players' fault for letting you run over them while trying to get the short stack to be eliminated. You did the right move in your table situation since the 4k to call the all in doesnt make up for the increase in chips you get from stealing the other players. I would mute the table chat for the rest of the tournament since they probably are just mad for giving you free chips

 

[RaisingYa]

This is not cheating or unethical, it is good strategy. There is nothing wrong with this play. If the other players are so soft to let you take the chips every time, you should take advantage of it.

 

[Skull_Sniper]

I'm sure people have many different opinions, but I don't see how you did anything wrong. It's every man for himself, and you found a small piece of strategy that made a big difference for you. 1. Of course the guys at the table are pissed, because they want the short stack gone... naturally. 2. the railbirds were probably at least 1 or 2 players still mad the short stack came back, and the people on the rail just want something to talk about, so they'll make a huge deal about nothing just to feel special. All those people usually want is a free hand out anyway.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Damn right! Although this situation is different, I find it hilarious some of the comments people make playing in a $100 or so free roll. Like their some super analytical poker pro's/genius's doing us all a favor by playing a lousy free roll. If your that damn good why play in free roll for 3 or 4+ hours to win a pathetic $30... right?

No. wrong.
There are many members who play in the CC freerolls for reasons other than the prize money in them. I'd also hazard a guess that they don't consider them to be 'lousy' either.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I guess you need to explain why this was true. It benefits you to eliminate a player since the minimum payout for all remaining players is increased by his elimination. You have to figure your risk factor is small enough to justify playing any two cards.

Actually eliminating the ss doesn't benefit 'him' directly at all. Not sure if you've read all the posts in this thread & have missed something (or if I'm misinterpretting what you've written). HERO is chipleader. It benefits him to keep the ss (& the bubble) alive so he can continue to aggress on the other two mid-sized stacks. His tourney equity actually increases by prolonging the bubble, as he's able to build his stack even larger.

There's a very basic SNG bubble strategy discussed in this thread but sadly it seems many are missing it.
This is not a fold due to HERO having a sh1tty hand .... as 'duggs' mentioned above in the thread this is easily a +ev call (all day long) but we're not calling for other reasons >>> the simple fact that we can continue to agress on the other two stacks, building an even larger stack by taking full advantage of the bubble situation.. thereby increasing our chances of taking 1st place.

 

[rumsey182]

i think you guys are confusing the overall strategy with the EV of this hand

the closer it is to 0 EV the better the strategy is of passing for highly +EV steals later on

the more +EV it is the more you miss out on guaranteeing the pay jump

it is more of an equilibrium then an overall strategy

 

[PortlandHoldem]

Poker should be played anyway that maximizes efficiency

I understand what you are saying and unless you are holding information (collusion) from us then nothing you did was out of line.

The best way to play poker is to play in a way that maximizes your chip stack. When I was playing with a group of friends in a live home game, my strategy consisted of slow playing and some good acting. The game ended with my friend freaking out on me for crippling his chip stack and making me the new chip leader. I see nothing wrong with this and have no remorse. Poker is not a game of "sorry for taking your chips." It's a game of creating the most opportunity out of the hands dealt.

~Portland

 

[rumsey182]

I understand what you are saying and unless you are holding information (collusion) from us then nothing you did was out of line.

The best way to play poker is to play in a way that maximizes your chip stack. When I was playing with a group of friends in a live home game, my strategy consisted of slow playing and some good acting. The game ended with my friend freaking out on me for crippling his chip stack and making me the new chip leader. I see nothing wrong with this and have no remorse. Poker is not a game of "sorry for taking your chips." It's a game of creating the most opportunity out of the hands dealt.

~Portland

chip ev is not always the most important thing, there is always a balance between chip ev ( "play in a way that maximizes your chip stack ") and icm and this boils down to how much we need to avoid conflict/ risk

this is so much more important in very short stack play, satty play, or large payout jumps

Cev not always equal to $ev

 

[Brodermatt]

Great bullying tactics! Completely legal of course! Just very bitter players who play very nitty! Congrats on the win too! Sounds like a simple and easy final table!

 

[rock0001]

well i think that it can be consider unethical because even though both players were playing tight just to win more money, you cant just fold this type of raise because it seems that you want to help the other player. also if both are from the same country, collusion is really a posibilty. so next time i recommend you to just call and try to outplay the other two players in case you win the pot.

 

[rumsey182]

well i think that it can be consider unethical because even though both players were playing tight just to win more money, you cant just fold this type of raise because it seems that you want to help the other player. also if both are from the same country, collusion is really a posibilty. so next time i recommend you to just call and try to outplay the other two players in case you win the pot.

i cant remember the name of the pro at the wsop a few years ago ( maybe farza jaka cant remember) but he isolated the shortie allin with crap bc he knew the rest of the table would fold anything and he had such a massive stack he wanted the bubble alive

it 100% has been done and is a smart play to some extent in the right situation

this is just too high +ev a spot to pass

 

[rock0001]

i cant remember the name of the pro at the wsop a few years ago ( maybe farza jaka cant remember) but he isolated the shortie allin with crap bc he knew the rest of the table would fold anything and he had such a massive stack he wanted the bubble alive

it 100% has been done and is a smart play to some extent in the right situation

this is just too high +ev a spot to pass

i see your point. it can be + ev spot, however it seems very suspicious to fold a hand in that particular situation. IMO the best choice there is to call and see what happens. online poker is very different from live poker....

 

[rumsey182]

i see your point. it can be + ev spot, however it seems very suspicious to fold a hand in that particular situation. IMO the best choice there is to call and see what happens. online poker is very different from live poker....

not that much you get more info and more time to process things that's it still same amount of cards in the deck and same % for equities lol it is always all about adjusting and playing to maximize ev

but your somewhat right overall aggression level is different

 

[Bowman]

anyone that says something was wrong with what you did, they are just pissed because you are doing all the right things at the right time.

people try to tell people how to play their cards at the tables. it's happened to me and will happen again. best bet, don't answer anyone of them. so what if you folded. I folded pocket KK at the river today and my opp had 44. didn't even hit his set, but I was so in the pot that a person folding was somewhat dumb. but I did. I didn't hear anything from anyone about that.

how is that unethical? poker is a game built on the principal to manipulate thoughts and feelings. to give a false impression. I have noticed most players at the tables will only have negative things to say to you about ones play.

poker is actually unethical in a way. the way you played was the way poker should have been played at that particular moment.

 

[FireMedic815]

You Absolutely did nothing wrong. That in fact is a very good strategy that I have talked about with other players. I have done it myself. The only thing you are guilty of is out thinking the other big stacks. The railbirds might have called it collusion because they were not good enough to see what you were really doing.
It is Not Collusion or Unethical Period! Just solid Strategy and well done!

I know you were getting the odds to call with pretty much any two cards there, but keeping the short stack in to bleed the bigger stacks is brilliant.

 

[FireMedic815]

i think you guys are confusing the overall strategy with the EV of this hand

the closer it is to 0 EV the better the strategy is of passing for highly +EV steals later on

the more +EV it is the more you miss out on guaranteeing the pay jump

it is more of an equilibrium then an overall strategy

Right he didn't fold because of his hand, and If I thought I could win more than his 14k chips by keeping him in and putting pressure on the other two stacks then I would fold aces to the short stack to keep him in and torture the others.

I have done this before and by the time the short stack busted out I had dwindled the other stack down to less than 20 bbs. I have also had a few players try this tactic on me but it is easy to defend. If a player is walking the short stack but raising you, then all you have to do is min raise or limp when the short stack is in the bb, he can't be walked if you are in the hand.

 

[sickpuppy]

Congrats on the win! And i say its your call or not. What they say dont matter!

 

[Bowman26]

I can rationalize the usage of the small stack and their potential to shove at any time later in tourneys and how the big stacks will tighten up and hope the smallest get knocked off next. Thus allowing you to play crazy and steal like a clepto. It is even better to do this when you have 2-3 smaller stacks though one is going to push on you more often if you do it with 2-3. Many people will sit back and hope the small stacks clash to knock one another out to move them up a spot. Avoid the big stacks and only play premium hands until the stacks are evened out or they are dominate over a smaller table etc.

As for calling the guy in this situation or not it is up to you to decide and there is no "right" answer. I think most players would consider it almost a unspoken rule that when someone with chips only has to call a tiny raise against one all in that you call with any two cards to try and rid the table of that player. So people think you aren't playing to win because you could have just as well thought hmmmm if I call him and he wins he will still be short for the most part and I can still steal blinds or I put him out either way I win. So you see no right answer lol . Just customary to take the chance to take someone out for little to no hit to you.

 

[Akorps]

Interesting that some players don't understand this strategy, which is a basic strategy near the bubble.

 

[RickH1983]

Say you played the hand and lost the tournament...You got to play your own game and not let other players influence your actions.

 

[hrix]

Just don't care what other people think. You decide how to play poker, not they

 

[DoNGaTo]

I woud do the same in your position ... just don't care what they say