Are TV poker tournaments rigged?

[aliengenius]

Mr. Pink, I have not seen anywhere in this post where you actual are making the claim the televised poker tournaments are rigged or that cheating is going on. Is that a claim that you are making, or are you simply implying that the possibility exists?

 

[crancko]

At the time of this writing 72% of visitors voted "No, all the TV poker games are 100% squeaky clean". This result does not surprise me. I already have a pretty good idea what the public thinks about those games, from conversations with people.

Since there are already several replies I think it's a good time to make a comment. I just wish that some of the replies were less antagonistic.



Well, how many people do you need to rig a game? The answer is always, a minimum of one person. I agree that it would be difficult to keep things under the hat if too many people were involved, but the fact is, one does not need to involve too many people.

OK, it would be virtually impossible for one person to rig the WSOP single-handedly (note the use of the word "virtually") but you still don't need to involve too many people to work a scam.



...hasn't happened, yet. We know that no such story has been in the media, yet, but that doesn't prove that there is no rigging.



With all due respect, if you don't know how to do it that doesn't mean it can't be done.



I will ignore for a second all your insults and make a quick comment to your valuable post.

FYI I have been reading and collecting gambling books for the past 20+ years and have a huge library that is constantly overflowing (that includes some rare historic books that I am sure you've never heard of). I also happen to have been around the block a few times and have learned from sources beyond what is written in the books. Since gambling has been my #1 occupation throughout my entire adult life, I have access to a wealth of people and information that I am willing to bet you will never even have a chance to come close to. Furthermore, I have visited casinos and gambling joints all over the world (usually on business) and have clients that are casino owners. I also happen to be on first-name basis with one of the people who was in charge of wiring-up the cameras for the WSOP, for a few years.

So, I find it a bit ridiculous when a 20-year old rookie (that had obviously been introduced to poker through the movie Rounders) starts giving me advice in an arrogant (not to mention ignorant) tone. My official career in the gambling industry started around the time you were wearing diapers. If you want to disagree with me, feel free to do so, but it would be kindly appreciated if you could refrain from being arrogant. But feel free to make a contribution to this thread.



This precisely brings me to a point that I was hoping to make.

In another thread I describe how poker has always been a rigged game. This is not just my personal opinion. This is a historical fact that has been documented in books, articles, etc...

Now let's compare poker to some other competitive sports. I don't even want to mention professional wrestling, since it is obviously rigged (and ridiculous). But let's look at honorable sports such as the Olympic Games, the Tour de France and so on. The biggest fear, for decades, has been that the players may be cheating. Despite the fact that there is so much drug testing, every so often (very frequently, actually) there is a scandalous news article that someone tested positive for whatever drugs or stimulants.

As some have already mentioned in their posts, there has never been any media coverage about cheating in big-money televised poker games. There has been mention of chips counts being off, just for several millions, but it is all brushed off as some honest mistake while they were coloring out the chips. But there has never (yet) been any direct mention of cheating. Yet, unlike the honorable competitive sports, poker is just about money and the whole game has a history of cheating. Let's not ignore the fact that throughout this history, most people were actually unaware of any cheating going on.

So, now that the popularity of poker has blown out of proportions, we must accept the fact that cheaters have lost interest and the game has cleaned up overnight.

Since I did say, in my opening statement of my initial post, that this thread would ruffle some feathers, I will ignore all the insulting remarks. If people want to disagree or state their opinions, they are more than welcome to do so. This is what a bulletin board is for. But I really don't see any reason for hostility.

Damn, Carl! You really did go to that punctuation and spelling course!!! Good for you!

 

[Wolfpack43ACC]

same thought here genius... his post is too vague and really takes no position. yes the possibility exists with anything. nothing is ever 100%, that's why it is called odds (probability). i'm sure being a poker player you've heard of it.

 

[Crummy]

I can see how you could feel that, but one event you can be sure's not is the ME you hafta realize that when you watch like the final table coverage on ESPN, it don't really happen that way. You only ever see 10-15% ofthe action at most. This years FT, for example; ESPN will cover the whole of it in 2 hours tops; I had the live feed on for a loong time, and between the 5th place finisher and the 4th place finisher going out, there was 4-5 hours of hands played, took more than 7 hours altogether counting breaks. And you'll never see a second of that on the TV coverage, 'cause most of it was boring.

So, when you look at last year's coverage, it looks like J Gold won every hand and sucked out on 90% of the pots; 'tain't exactly how it happened.

What the hell is a hafta??

 

[bob_tiger]

he means have to

 

[beardyian]

Is there cheating going on - examples?

Its ok to mention Athletics, Cycling - these have been abused to gain a physical advantage, Wrestling well need i say anything

Ok so the chip counts may be abused but when you say cheating you still need a bit more than a chip count advantage to win.

Are you talking card deck fixing (take into account the cardmaster machine now in use) or producers putting the more well known players in the limelight - thats called getting the ratings.

Why should we think the tv games are any less straight than they appear?
After all at the end of the day we are watching for entertainment purposes.

Is it the larger MTTs you are directing the Tv question at or the several STTs made for Tv games - as often in poker one question is often replaced by another

 

[Wolfpack43ACC]

Ordered the FT coverage as well. People are so spoiled with everything on tv... it just shows action. When in reality every pot isn't action. When it gets to final table, so much raising and folding going on.

 

[bob_tiger]

well yea wolf...they record the whole thing then they just leave the parts where there is action. if they show every hand then nobody would watch because it would be to boring to watch. everyone likes to see someone go all in or someone make take down a big pot.

 

[dj11]

I refuse to vote based on the 67th amendment. Thou shalt not be required to vote for persons or issues that have no relevance.

 

[aliengenius]

same thought here genius... his post is too vague and really takes no position. yes the possibility exists with anything.

Right. In any ontological argument ("does x exist") it isn't incumbent on the party arguing 'no' to make the case; rather those who would claim 'yes, x exits' are the ones that need to provide convincing evidence.

 

[reglardave]

What the hell is a hafta??

Ebonivs, you know- hafta,coulda, woulda,shoulda. If you write it out like most people say it have IS indeed hafta. Hooked on Ebonics......but right now I hafta go to da toidy.

 

[Crummy]

We should just end all words with "A".

Wella I'va Laughta Soa Harda Ata Thisa Threada Ia Hafta Peeaaa!!

HAHA I sound like a preacher! AMENAAA

 

[aliengenius]

Ebonivs, you know- hafta,coulda, woulda,shoulda. If you write it out like most people say it have IS indeed hafta. Hooked on Ebonics......but right now I hafta go to da toidy.

How come there were only 49 contestants in the Miss Ebonics pageant?


Because no one wanted to be Miss I-da-ho.

 

[threesover]

there are too many people involved for it to be rigged. has someone tired to rig a game thats on tv? im sure they have. with so many people on the tv crew it would be near impossible for someone not to spill the beans and then all hell would break loose. if it was rigged i would expect to never see a pro near the top of the field or the final table. it would be better for those hosting the tourney to let only amatures such as jamie gold win every tourney. that would atract the most people.

 

[mrrigel]

Wow....nice thread to come home to after a good days work.....You made some very good points crancko. I didn't put the link (or "old news") up to say anything other then a respected member of the industry got caught cheating....that's all. I can't for the life of me imagine that there are not any educated people out there with enough resources at their disposal who try very hard to find ways to cheat. If I'm wrong and all it does for me to think that way makes me more mindful of my surroundings.....great, fine, sweet. This is poker...how can their not be people at least trying? Televised events, high stakes private games, online tournaments, fun bar games for prizes, all have one thing in common......poker players.

 

[Christianello]

all tornament are clean is doubtless!

 

[Romano]

I've voted "I think some of them are definitely rigged."

I think that most of the comments here come from a misinterpretation of Mr Pink's poll. I mean, Mr Pink never asked "Do you think the wsop is rigged?", he asked "Do you think televised poker games are rigged?", and there's a big difference.

Most of, if not all of the people here, would definitively not imagine for a second that the WSOP could be rigged. And by being rigged, they first think in terms of one or several people planning a big scam at the WSOP, planning and deciding from scratch that this player or this group of players will be the ones to go through the tournament and win the big score. And I understand this thinking. I mean, there are so many players at the WSOP, pros and amateurs, so many tables, so many dealers, that even if a pro cheating team was using collusion and marked cards in every round, they would still have a tough way to go till the final table. Just imagine you could see all of your opponent’s cards. One time or another, with the blinds going up, you'll have to shove all your chips on the table. And even with the knowledge of starting as a favorite preflop, you could still be beaten by a runner runner, or a backdoor flush on the river. So, is the WSOP rigged? In terms of a full planned scam, that's indeed hard to believe. But that doesn't mean that nobody is trying to cheat there. Cheating teams may exist in that kind of tournaments, and I personally think they definitively are, sharing a common bankroll, using collusion,
, signaling each other their cards, bringing in extra chips, using some kind of marking systems..., but that will not guarantee them a 100% payoff, just some advantage over the "square" players. And I definitively believe some of the pro players are using some of those cheating techniques (at least colluding between them, hey most of them are friends, they're in the "inner circle", so let's keep the money between us...).

But the televised poker games are not just only broadcasting the WSOP, the WPT or EPT. The "world poker show" is not just restricted to those famous tournaments. I think everybody here has heard about the "High Stakes Poker" where top players like Negreanu, Ivey, Brunson...along with rich amateurs are playing high stakes ring games. Who could reasonably think at least for a second that this kind of broadcasted events are not rigged?
First, the top players all know each others, and some are good friends (Negreanu and Mattusow for example).
Second, the game is going to be broadcasted on a TV channel, meaning that it has to be a "show", with lot of action, bluff and swings, people don't want to see a bunch of tight players raising only with strong hands. They want to see Negreanu calling a big raise with Q9o and making a big bluff on the flop to chase his opponent away.
Third, there are some amateurs there. Amateurs, but wealthy ones. For the pros, that's an even better opportunity to get some fresh money, making sure with some colluding signals or by playing "soft" with their pals to get the money from the unfortunate sucker. I mean, that kind of "cheating" from the pros is quite common in the private high stakes sides games, so why not in front of the camera, if the "moves" are done in a professional way? By the way, they are professionals!

So, if the pros, because they happen to play in front of the cameras, because of their ego or because they were told to do some "fancy" moves for the show, just don't play their "regular" poker, I think we can call that a "televised rigged game". And if they happen to collude between them against the poor amateur, that's even worse, that's cheating.

And at the end, everybody's happy: the top players, along being paid for the show ($1,250 per hour, that's a fact), have a chance to win easy money from the amateurs, they happen to be on a TV broadcast, they get more famous. Good news also for the sponsors. Good news for the local casino which get some advertisement. Good news for the online poker rooms which will get more suckers joining the tables and spending their money playing trash hands (hey I saw Negreanu raising and winning with 72o, so I can do it too! That's easy!). And good news also for the amateur, because he's going to play against the pros, in front of the cameras. And if he happens to loose all his money, at least he will get a piece of fame.

That's my point of view, I don't mean that is the reality, just my thoughts on how things could happen in a crooked world....

 

[Mrlova]

Why would a tv poker show need to be rigged. There's no reason for it to be rigged.

Think of it this way, what would the profit be if they were to rig the tournametns . . . there would be no profit. So why rig the poker tournaments.

Good luck at the tables

 

[Monoxide]

Anyone who thinks they are rigged need to get their brain checked, why rig them, for what purpose..?... retarded IMO...

 

[jaymfc]

bumped thread but who cares, didn't see it before.going to post anyway, lol , IMO , there is big difference between "rigged " and "cheating " , rigged implies that the outcome is known in advance , I do not believe that to be true. cheaters? hell ya ! in any and all things. you did ruffle some feathers mr pink , bigtime , quite a few rude answers. when I think a posted question is stupid , I show it by NOT posting. love a stupid post with not one single reply. we have a lot of angry people that need to get their aggression out here so they don't take it out on their wife ,husband,parents or friends.

 

[jeffred1111]

While it is true that many of the top pros are friends, this doesn't mean that they play soft on each other when they are on camera, hoping to get the 100k that Buss or Stupak brought to the table. The fact that they are playing against each others in side games for sometimes much more (Greenstein reportedly had Benyamine 2 millions in the hole before David got back to him, leaving him stuck for 800k in PLO at a side game) proves this easily. While they are getting payed, and that they probably "work" enough to cover their entire 100k buy-in (1.250 an hour + side benefits quickly adds-up to 100k since filming the show must be at least 200 hours), they do play their own money: all the people who were invited on HSP state this as a fact.

Now, many of the events are staged or there's scripted lines (Mattusow receiving 5k to stay in the game, Deeb going at Daniel's throat after accusations of going south, etc.) for sure to make good television, but the facts are simple: pick any HS NLHE game on stars right now and you'll see bluffs with q9o, raising with 72o, etc. This is the nature of the game: ultra-aggro and unpredictable. I remember seeing Durr, a great LHE player, call 6 BB with 10 high and on a board with two aces and three of the same suit and he WON the hand: that would make good TV without needing any slight of hand by the producers.

 

[pigpen02]

No

:dito:

 

[pkrboz1]

No, FCC would be all over them

 

[grilldoggy]

It's more likely that internet sites are rigged.

But not the vast majority of them.
And no, I don't have the slightest feeling that tv tournaments are rigged. The closest thing to being 'rigged' is when a player tips another off that he has the nuts, as some sort of courtesy. There was a guy in a tv tournament playing for charity, and I think it was Andrew Gold who let him know to fold, to save money. But this isn't even cheating, of course.

 

[rob5775]

No, FCC would be all over them

Huh? What does the FCC have to do with cheating at a televised poker tourney? The FCC could care less as long as no F-bombs were televised.

And no, I don't think televised poker is rigged. Everyone who says they "think" it could be is missing the point. I "think" that the inside of a black hole is a tiny purple martian. You say there isn't? Prove me wrong.