Size of opening bet in late stages of freeroll

R

RocwX

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I have been playing tons of freerolls lately and I noticed that after a few levels, when blinds are really big and most players have between 10 to 30 BBs, the opening bet of a hand preflop can be just 2 BBs. Most people will fold, even the BB if he is short-stacked, and you get the result of a standard 2.5~3BB bet for a lower price.

Please, share your thoughts on the subject.
 
TeUnit

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I think the right answer is as small as you can get away with. Slightly over a min raise is a good size, but if you think the villan will fold to a min raise - then go with a min raise.
 
perrywh

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I play tight and passive in the beginning of tourney and aggressive aggressive in the later stages. Seams like when you are playing good players aggressive works. I raising ten bb or more with good cards.
 
neverbluff

neverbluff

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Depends on the opponent like TeUnit said. You don't want to be risking a large % of your stack when there are still 5 cards to come. Generally with < 20BB I'll open shove allin instead of min raising though.
 
TeUnit

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Depends on the opponent like TeUnit said. You don't want to be risking a large % of your stack when there are still 5 cards to come. Generally with < 20BB I'll open shove allin instead of min raising though.


I dont think you want to be doing a ton of open shoving if you can get away with a small bet.
From the sb with 20bbs you really can only open shove:


22,A2,K9,K4s,Q9,Q5s,J9,J7s,T9,T6s,98,96s,86s,75s,65s,54s

And against most villans (not super 3betty) your 22 and AQ are probably the only hands you want to open shove from the small blind.

With 20bbs you still have room to min raise fold and to limp stab the flop.

But if you have to go through a bunch of villans your range really has to tighten.
 
ammje

ammje

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As colleagues say, at first you must not be very aggressive by open-raising, because all the players have a lot of chips, and bb are very small, many players pay, and you end up doing fold on the flop, it is best control the pot . gl
 
nenaviju poker

nenaviju poker

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I think that at a later stage of the tournament, if I have only 10 blinds, it makes no sense to put 2 blinds with a good hand, I usually put everything on this stack.
 
akmost

akmost

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The last years the standard open raise sizing is maximum 2.5x , you will see bigger open raises in some freerolls like 3x-6x.
Small ball poker is what regulars want to play, also the post flop betting can be from 25%-75% depending on the board texture.
Pot size bet can also be seen in some freerolls as well. I am also a freeroller so those situations are very common for me too.

The only time I find reasonable to open raise 3x-4x at the very beginning of a tournament , let's say 3000 initial stack and 10/20 blind levels with no antes yet.

If you want a piece of advice here I would say to you to keep your open raise amount the same in order to avoid any reads from your opponents.Maybe open raise something like 2.2x-2.5x from UTG , UTG+1.

Personally I open raise 2x I find it non sense to have 15bbs and open raise 3x. You burn 20% of your stack pre flop.If you have approximately 10bbs the standard move is to open shove :)
 
R

RocwX

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I think most people here didn't understand the point of the thread. What I meant to say is, when the blinds are really big, specially in freerolls, you can steal them or see a cheap flop for 2 BBs. Of course, if you're close to 10 BBs, you shouldn't do this, just go ahead and shove.
 
Luvepoker

Luvepoker

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It really is player dependent to be honest. Some player will call you 2x raise or 5x raise cause that's what they do. The problem you face with the 2x raise and why I don't use it is good players will call you a lot more knowing its only 1 BB more. If I am in the BB I will call not any 2 cards but any reasonable hand when it is raised that small. If you raise with Aks 2x and I call I could have say 53 suited I will call because you game me such great odds to call. You would be allowing me to play a hand I happy fold that could break you that I fold to a slightly bigger raise. Yes the 2x raise can help you win pots but depending who you are against I can be a very dangerous play.
 
pirateglenn

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There is also value in appearing to be weak with a bet size in late stages of freeroll especially when SS although often, SS players tend to have the goods, appearing weak can entice someone to over bet on you and then you can lay the hammer down - its a tactic i often employ at higher level games but very effective as it keeps your opponents guessing
 
JBGoode

JBGoode

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It really is player dependent to be honest. Some player will call you 2x raise or 5x raise cause that's what they do. The problem you face with the 2x raise and why I don't use it is good players will call you a lot more knowing its only 1 BB more. If I am in the BB I will call not any 2 cards but any reasonable hand when it is raised that small. If you raise with Aks 2x and I call I could have say 53 suited I will call because you game me such great odds to call. You would be allowing me to play a hand I happy fold that could break you that I fold to a slightly bigger raise. Yes the 2x raise can help you win pots but depending who you are against I can be a very dangerous play.
It's all about effective stacks. While you are correct, giving the BB a great price to make the call. Especially if there's other callers behind. But in your exsample of AK vs. 53 is precisely what the AK is looking for.....

We need to consider the amount of flops that are good for us with AK compared to 53... there on millions even billions of diffrent boards.... but the majority of those board are going to favor AK while only a few are gonna favor 53....

For exsample if you flop the very rare 555 of 553, AK is only in for 2BBs, and chances are 53 is gonna check thier nutted/close to nutted hand.... thus AK is either gonna check along, or fire a thin CBet figuring this is a Nutted style flop. (You either hit it or you didnt, along with making a thin call with A high which you beat with kicker) when BB makes your CBet call. The only cards that come on the turn for you to continue would be a A or a K.... and because the call was out of the BB you know a 5 is still very much in thier range so you are proceeding with caution anyways.... this doesnt matter if you bet 5x pre or 2x pre... the diffrence is by the time you reach the river on this flop you have a good understanding of where you are at with a 2x raise then you are with a 5x raise, since a 5x raise pre then this flop seems to have not connected with either range. Leaving a lot of dead money. If someone was to bet into this after a 5x pre it's really hard to tell where anyone stands when comparing ranges....

Now let's consider a more reasonable situation like 346, or 235, or 53J.... dont really need to explain much here, BB checks to the aggressor since they are well ahead, AK is again Thin CBetting, and BB is probably check raising, and AK is able to get away only risking about 4 BBs compared to 8-10....

Now we have a sticky situation that could work in 53's favor, and really isnt that rare.... flops like 5JQ, 53K, 5TJ.... do you notice the diffrence? Out of those 3 scenarios 53 is head in all 3, but the AK is drawing to something stronger.... granted BB is either calling, or check raising in these situation, but AK is coming along.... in a 5x pre pot these are they types of flops that would get them into a huge decision to continue... we would much reither continue risking less, until we are confadent we are good.... we just cant be confadent we are good with that much money in the pot to chance a draw, meaning we jam a check raise with less then our opponent hoping for Fold equity, or we just fold ourselfs.....

Now let's consider hands like 24K, 46A these are really the only 2 hands that would make your thory correct, but with these being the only 2 flops to come that would benefit the 53 BB on a inflated pre pot. They are still looking to complete a draw to win, but are also disguised in a way to get AK to play for all thier chips....

Now let's assume both miss, regardless of what I list AK is still ahead, close to 4 to 1. Boards like T94, Q68, J27 these hands are going to the player in position if played correctly. Maybe not for a huge pot, but they are picking up the chips....

I hope that helps.
 
ninjareal

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I think the right answer is as small as you can get away with. Slightly over a min raise is a good size, but if you think the villan will fold to a min raise - then go with a min raise.


Hi, I like this, is this what's meant by "fold equity" ?
 
ninjareal

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I think the right answer is as small as you can get away with. Slightly over a min raise is a good size, but if you think the villan will fold to a min raise - then go with a min raise.

Hi, I like this, is this what is meant by "fold equity "? - the least amount we might loose if villan/s shove and we're not prepared to call ?
Otherwise why so small ?
 
ninjareal

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It really is player dependent to be honest. Some player will call you 2x raise or 5x raise cause that's what they do. The problem you face with the 2x raise and why I don't use it is good players will call you a lot more knowing its only 1 BB more. If I am in the BB I will call not any 2 cards but any reasonable hand when it is raised that small. If you raise with Aks 2x and I call I could have say 53 suited I will call because you game me such great odds to call. You would be allowing me to play a hand I happy fold that could break you that I fold to a slightly bigger raise. Yes the 2x raise can help you win pots but depending who you are against I can be a very dangerous play.

yes , very good words , has happened to us all , I have been victim at times of not raising enough, I've always felt in general that when you have a good hand , you only want similar (and slightly weaker) hands to call, AK vs AQ etc... these AK vs A4 situations can end up costing you your whole stack
 
TerryBLE

TerryBLE

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When the tournament reaches this stage several players have enough chips for the ITM and reduce considerably range of cards that are willing to take a risk
 
bablo

bablo

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Not much information, but I think that this is the final stage of the tournament and everything depends on our stack and the stack of those who are stupid for bb and the degree of their tightness how often they steal the blinds.
 
TeUnit

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Hi, I like this, is this what is meant by "fold equity "? - the least amount we might loose if villan/s shove and we're not prepared to call ?
Otherwise why so small ?

Fold equity is the equity we gain when the villan folds. But if you know that you are going to fold if the villan shoves why not make the amount you lose smaller. Most villans are not going to be sensitive to half a blind or whatever when making their decision. However some villans will never fold to a min raise, but they will fold to slightly larger sizing.
 
JBGoode

JBGoode

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Hi, I like this, is this what's meant by "fold equity" ?
Fold Equity is betting a scared card on the river to get the % of hands left in thier range that can beat us to fold....

Example: you raise with AcQs from LJ, and Vil calls you on the BUT with KhTs.... flop comes Kc3s7c, you are frist to Act so you CBet bet 2/3 pot, since this has about a 50% chance this flop missed Vil BUT calling range. Since Vil hit top pair, but doesnt have any strong draws they make the call....

Turn card is 3h, since a 3 is not in Vil calling range besides A3s, and the only hands that can beat you that are still within Vil range is, K8s+ or KTo+, 77 and A3s you feel pretty good that a bet will win this pot unless they have an K, A3s or 77. Figuring you are ahead of everything else within thier range They would have 3Bet with AA, KK, or QQ preflop.... so you bet thin (1/3) to protect our range allowing Vil to keep us on possible flush draws, Ks, A7, A3. We are not worried about Vil having the Flush draw cause we have the high Flush blocker with the Ac.... and if they turned a full house with 77.... good for them, it's rare, that and A3s are the only hand in thier range we are drawing dead to at this point that they would just call a turn bet with. Assuming they were willing to slowplay middle set on a wet flop knowing they didnt have a backdoor flush since they couldnt have a backdoor flush if they had a set of 7s and your holding the Ac.

So we bet 1/3 pot and get a call.... we most def. Put them on a K of some sort at this point. It's really all they have in thier range to call preflop and 2 barrels....

River comes Qc.... while you are thinking, "Q is no good, you should just concede." The correct play is to use Vil large "Fold Equity" to get them to fold thier pair of Kings knowing that makes up most of thier range, and if that's the case they dont have a flush.... but we now can add back KQ, but since we are holding a Q the chances are lower. could they have a flush? Maybe but it's less then a 15% chance based off what 2 suited cards they would still have in thier range based off just calling pre, and just calling 2 streets, and even if they did, it's not the high because we have the Ac.... could they have a 3 for a low boat? A3, and we are holding an A so in reality they have a better chance of having a low flush then a 3 or a Q.... 77? They would have raised the flop, but yes it's the they could have if they chose to slow play on that wet flop, but I would not put alot of stock into it. In comparison to our small turn bet. That only leaves busted draws, and Ks.... while we still have AA, a rare KK, 77, A3s, rare KQ, A,Q, and J high flushes all within our range even after a double barrel....

Thus we can confadently come to the conclution this player has "High Fold Equity" on this river. Thus we fire strong on the river to get a fold, the same size we would bet for value with a Flush or a Full House to complete the story.....

I hope that help you understand what Fold Equity is....
 
Ikeman74

Ikeman74

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I dont care at which Point in a tourney I am.I Always raise the same sizes preflop.
This is 2,5 BB in middle and 3 BB in late Position.UTG and in the Blinds I raise 3,5 BB.
A Reraise from me is always potsize.
No need to worry about and noone can imagine,weather you have good or bad Cards.
 
P

Principg

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I always raise 2x BB, no matter of position or stage of tounament. Don't like to put to many chips pre-flop, also cause of fold-equity, and simply cause with always the same raise villain doesn't now if u hold 78s or AA..
 
JBGoode

JBGoode

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I dont care at which Point in a tourney I am.I Always raise the same sizes preflop.
This is 2,5 BB in middle and 3 BB in late Position.UTG and in the Blinds I raise 3,5 BB.
A Reraise from me is always potsize.
No need to worry about and noone can imagine,weather you have good or bad Cards.
I understand you want to keep your ranges structured without giving away info because of size changes....

But you need to take into consideration effective stack, let's say you have 100BBs, while everyone else has about 30BBs. You are way ahead right? Thus you can steal more blinds, and apply pressure. Thus you can safely raise 3BBs consistily with your open range, and get a lot more folds....

Now let's say everyone is right around 50BBs. This changes things a little, everyone is even thus our ranges might not change, but we need to be more vigilant of stack sizes, 3Bets, and inflated pots. This is when we start dropping our open amount to 2.25x to 2.5x this allows us to keep the same range, not risk too much of our stack up front, and build a pot as our hand gets stronger post flop, or not lose as much as it gets weaker....

Now let's say we have like 20 to 30 BBs and everyone else is at like 50BBs. This is when we are gonna widen out Open range, and start min raising. Yea we are risking getting 3bet off pots, but that's ok, we are min raising, and long risking a little less then 10% of our stack when we are trying to get in... the closer we get the 20 from 30 the tighter we range our opens though....

Once we are below 20 we are approaching push fold range. If your not sure what that is look it up. Johnathan Little has a ver nice free one for everyone to use.... basicly we are looking to either min raise a polerized range, and shove with just less then premium.... as our stack gets smaller this range moves more to a merged ranges where it becomes all open shoves....

Hope that helps you understand this concept.
 
akmost

akmost

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I understand you want to keep your ranges structured without giving away info because of size changes....

But you need to take into consideration effective stack, let's say you have 100BBs, while everyone else has about 30BBs. You are way ahead right? Thus you can steal more blinds, and apply pressure. Thus you can safely raise 3BBs consistily with your open range, and get a lot more folds....

Now let's say everyone is right around 50BBs. This changes things a little, everyone is even thus our ranges might not change, but we need to be more vigilant of stack sizes, 3Bets, and inflated pots. This is when we start dropping our open amount to 2.25x to 2.5x this allows us to keep the same range, not risk too much of our stack up front, and build a pot as our hand gets stronger post flop, or not lose as much as it gets weaker....

Now let's say we have like 20 to 30 BBs and everyone else is at like 50BBs. This is when we are gonna widen out Open range, and start min raising. Yea we are risking getting 3bet off pots, but that's ok, we are min raising, and long risking a little less then 10% of our stack when we are trying to get in... the closer we get the 20 from 30 the tighter we range our opens though....

Once we are below 20 we are approaching push fold range. If your not sure what that is look it up. Johnathan Little has a ver nice free one for everyone to use.... basicly we are looking to either min raise a polerized range, and shove with just less then premium.... as our stack gets smaller this range moves more to a merged ranges where it becomes all open shoves....

Hope that helps you understand this concept.

Hey man I really like your posts whenever I come across I read them. Nice analysis every time and always to the point. I use Little's push / fold chart too, do you have any free chat for rejam situations when we are shortish 15-20 bbs against loose open raisers or generally +EV rejams?

Thanks :)
 
K

kdawg71

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The last years the standard open raise sizing is maximum 2.5x , you will see bigger open raises in some freerolls like 3x-6x.
Small ball poker is what regulars want to play, also the post flop betting can be from 25%-75% depending on the board texture.
Pot size bet can also be seen in some freerolls as well. I am also a freeroller so those situations are very common for me too.

The only time I find reasonable to open raise 3x-4x at the very beginning of a tournament , let's say 3000 initial stack and 10/20 blind levels with no antes yet.

If you want a piece of advice here I would say to you to keep your open raise amount the same in order to avoid any reads from your opponents.Maybe open raise something like 2.2x-2.5x from UTG , UTG+1.

Personally I open raise 2x I find it non sense to have 15bbs and open raise 3x. You burn 20% of your stack pre flop.If you have approximately 10bbs the standard move is to open shove :)
I agree with AKmost. Keep your raises the same. From my experience with players who play in this manner, I can't get a feel for them at all. It is very frustrating. Don't deviate with your raises ever. Doesn't matter whether you have 7 2 unsuited or A A. As long as your stack moves in an upward trend that's all that really matters in the long run. if you aren't successful in this endeavor than do something different.
 
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