Pro SNG video

Effexor

Effexor

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Last night I watched a SNG pro that made a video and explained why he was doing the things he was doing. It was on the site for the Rounders podcast.

$530 buyin

The thing that surprised me, and maybe this is a hole in my game, is the sheer amount of all-ins. Once the blinds hit 100/200, even though the average stacks were all like 4,000 people were basically in push or fold mode. So I tried this out on 2 of my $10 sngs (0 for 2) and frankly I'm not sure it's a viable strategy since people will call with all kinds of hands. I do think I'll decrease my aggression early, and increase it later though.

Also, he used min raises quite a few times. He min raised on the button with KK for example.

Lastly, one thing I realized was that I must be a fairly good sng player. I called out what he would do on every hand except one, where he pushed PF with a weak King.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Don't bother using $500 strategies for the stakes we play at. Minraises have their time and place, but I think saying to never minraise at our stakes is probably a good idea.
 
Wolfpack43ACC

Wolfpack43ACC

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yea $500 is a different game although i have tried this aggressive all in strategy in sit and gos with hands ill race with and it works at times, but i hate sit and gos.
 
whitemeteo

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The problem with the $10 sng apposed to the $500+ sng is the players in the $500+ most likely possess a wider range of fold hands. That is to say a fold would seem to be the correct play more often than to a $10 player. Because of this the all in might be a more successfull and alltogether more profitable play.
 
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rovinato

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Going all-in too often not seems to me a good strategy, not on a 500$ stg not on a 10$ stg.
Peolple can call with every hand only to see what you have (e.g. calls with 88 when you have 44), instead if you rarely go all-in, probably a player with 88 will fold, and your 44 will win versus AJ of another player.
:joyman:
 
Chris_TC

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The thing that surprised me, and maybe this is a hole in my game, is the sheer amount of all-ins. Once the blinds hit 100/200, even though the average stacks were all like 4,000 people were basically in push or fold mode.
Was this a turbo tournament? That kind of thing seems very unlikely for a regular SNG.

I've never played a $500 SNG, but at the $100 level people are fairly tight and will certainly not enter push/fold mode when they still have 20x the BB.

I'm not a fan of this kind of play. I feel it has little to do with poker because it takes away post-flop play. That's also the reason why I don't play turbo SNGs.
 
RammerJammer

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You don't mention whether the SNG was a single-table or multi-table affair. I can't really see pulling the trigger on "all or nothing" as quickly as the 100/200 level on a single table. That's some pretty wild play. I do agree with the other posters that if you try that on a low-buy table, you'll get eaten alive. The maniacs will call you with any two cards. They'd rather try and get lucky and steal something than to win it outright with solid play. Which, of course, is why all donkeys must die.
 
stormswa

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was this a cardrunners video? I watched one also from saturday.
 
Effexor

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It was a single table SNG.

Please forgive me if I'm not supposed to post this link, remove it if it's not allowed.

BigPoker.ca

This is the site for the podcast / radio show Rounders.

If you haven't heard their show before, check it out. It's a weekly show thats very very good.


To Stormy: It wasn't a cardrunners video unless it was cross posted. I'd like to join cardrunners myself, but I'm far too cheap. I really enjoy watching the videos of people playing with their comments.
 
ChuckTs

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I'm not a fan of this kind of play. I feel it has little to do with poker because it takes away post-flop play. That's also the reason why I don't play turbo SNGs.


Making this play with 20BBs is pretty ridiculous, but has its merits. Players simply can't call without monster hands - first in vigourish is a great, great thing :)

As for it having 'little to do with poker', well that's silly. Poker is what it is - preflop or postflop. Just because turbos require a different set of skills that you may not be as good with vs your postflop skills, doesn't make it any less of a poker game. Winning in the long-run is definitely possible. I've made most of my winnings with STTs, and most of those being turbos.
 
Chris_TC

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As for it having 'little to do with poker', well that's silly. Poker is what it is - preflop or postflop. Just because turbos require a different set of skills that you may not be as good with vs your postflop skills, doesn't make it any less of a poker game.
I didn't say I'm bad at preflop play, I don't think I am, but if you take postflop play away entirely then of course it makes it less of a poker game. Instead of having up to 4 betting rounds you chop the game down to a single betting round and let fate decide on the outcome.

It's virtually impossible to outplay someone preflop, but it's very much possible postflop.

Just yesterday I got crippled by a guy who's apparently very afraid of playing postflop.
He and I were the chipleaders with 6 players left. We both had ~4000-4500 chips, the other players had ~1000-2000 chips.

He opens under the gun with AKo for a normal raise of 400 chips. Everybody folds, I make it 1200 from the BB with KK. He's got position on me and can make an easy call for 800 more, commiting only 1/4th his stack to this hand. Instead, he thinks for a while and then pushes all-in.

I have an easy call obviously, he hits the turn and cripples me.
Now you may say that that's no big deal because I win this situation 7 out of 10 times. But the truth is this: I had built up my stack through hard work, outmaneuvering people and taking pots one at a time for an hour, just to lose it all in a single hand because the guy was too afraid to see a flop with me.

I feel that this is the kind of play bad players (have to) make because it takes away a lot of decisions they'd be facing otherwise.
And that's where we get back to the topic of this thread. I like to think that at the $500 level people are good enough to not want to put all their money in preflop unless they have a huge hand or they're shortstacked.

That's why I'm a bit surprised, but I guess I'll watch the video myself. I'm curious.

Winning in the long-run is definitely possible. I've made most of my winnings with STTs, and most of those being turbos.
What site do you play on? I can see this being an option if you have maybe 5 minute blind levels. But at Ongame, turbo SNGs have 3 minute blind levels which is ridiculously fast.
So if you start the game in the BB, the blinds will be at level 3 by the time you're in the BB the next time. After 20 minutes everybody's so shortstacked that it's just a matter of catching a good enough starting hand to shove and hoping that nobody's got a better one.
 
Chris_TC

Chris_TC

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The thing that surprised me, and maybe this is a hole in my game, is the sheer amount of all-ins. Once the blinds hit 100/200, even though the average stacks were all like 4,000 people were basically in push or fold mode.
I just watched the video, and apparently you remembered this incorrectly. The two big stacks are ~4,000 at level 100/200, everybody else's stack is considerably smaller.

There are a few things worth noting though.

There's one hand where a player with 2,300 chips (AQo) raises to 600. The button with 2,200 chips (99) then pushes all-in and gets called.
What you have to keep in mind here is that they're down to 5 players, and both AQo and 99 are strong holdings when you're shorthanded, especially if your stack isn't very big.

Another situation comes shortly after that hand when the table is down to 4 players. The cutoff (chipleader) makes a standard raise, and the button pushes his big stack with JJ to which the other guy folds. Once again it's very important to understand that there's only 4 players left now. A hand like A8s becomes very strong, a hand like JJ becomes a monster.
The button has reason to believe that his Jacks are the best hand, but they're vulnerable against overcards. So he decides to raise. Making a standard 3-bet would cost him half his stack and pot-commit him, so he pushes all-in instead.
This is certainly good play, just make sure you understand why he makes this move. It's not a move you'd make at a 10-handed table against an under the gun raise.

Another interesting hand is the one where the commentator calls a button raise with 52s. The flop comes 10 high with two spades, giving him a flush draw and he pushes all-in for 4x the pot.
Personally, I think this is absolutely terrible play. If his opponent didn't flop anything he can take it down with a pot-sized bet (probably less than that). There's no reason to put your entire stack on the line when you have no idea what your opponent is holding. Will he call with an overpair? Almost certainly. Will he call if he flopped trips? You bet.
The likelihood of his opponent having such a holding isn't terribly big, but once again: why risk your entire stack when a much smaller bet will achieve the exact same thing?

A bit later the commentator once again goes nuts by pushing all-in on the button with A3s for 15x the BB. And this time he gets bitten. The SB calls with AJo and destroys him.
Once again: why put your entire stack on the line when a raise to 2.5x-3x the BB does the trick with the blinds this high. If the SB comes over the top we can fold our A3s.

Overall I really don't agree much with the commentator in the later stages of the game.
When they're down to 3-handed both he and another player flop top pair (57 vs. 87) on a flop of 467 two spades. The other player bets 2/3 the pot, the commentator jams for 6x the original bet and gets called. Then he goes on to comment: "The right play for him would have been to put it all-in right away. I can't see what's the point of betting 800 dollars around that flop."

Call me weak-tight if you like, but overbetting the pot 5-fold with two players left behind you when you hold one pair with a 5 kicker hardly seems like "the right play".
The whole point of playing post-flop is to get information. When you're first to act with two players behind you in a limped pot, you really don't have any information.

The commentator comes across as a bit maniacal and entirely lacking subtlety.
Once the blinds reach level 5 he treats the game like a war between tank squads when in reality there's a lot of room left for infantry maneuvers.

He keeps on playing that way when they're down to heads-up.
On the flop, his opponent bets 400 into a pot of 1,600 which is a weak bet. So he decides to raise his bottom pair + open ender which is correct. But he does not raise to around 2,000. Instead, he raises to 8,000.

Surprisingly, he gets called by a very bad hand, so one might argue that he made the right play (even though he gets sucked out).
But really, it was over the top again.
For a bet of 2,000 his opponent's pot odds would be 2.5:1.
For a bet of 8,000 his opponent's pot odds are 1.3:1.

Neither odds are good enough to call with a straight draw, but 2,000 is more likely to spawn a bad call than 8,000. You simply can't expect the guy to put his entire stack on the line with a terrible call like he did.

Overall, the commentator was the only one at the table who kept pushing all-in down to the last hand. This is brute-force poker, and the fact that he finished second in the tournament doesn't mean much.
You may be able to steal the blinds a bunch of times like he did. But when you do get called you're usually in hell (A3 vs. AJ).
 
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