***October SNG Thread***

[cjatud2012]

I been working on my push/fold game and building my stack 6-5 handed by stealing blinds to better my position at bubble play. Been doing really good when im in situations with tighter players where i have a better understanding of hand ranges. but I found i struggle once i got loose players to my left where raising the blinds with Kx, connected cards, A2o type hands seems shaky. I cant wait for good cards, but the cards i get feel vulnerable to a call. Im not really sure how to post some of the hands i had in question without making this post unnecessarily long so ill post a couple and go from there.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.2 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 (t1715)
MP2 (t585)
CO (t1930)
Hero (Button) (t1400)
SB (t3010)
BB (t2575)
UTG (t2285)

Hero's M: 9.33

Preflop: Hero is Button with

,

UTG bets t400, 6 folds

I know this hand seems like an instant fold but, UTG has raised very wide earlier in the tourney and folded to 3bet shoves. He has raised from EP was called and folded to a light flop bet so his raises do not always mean strength, hes showed down raising with Ax hands and weaker in the early stages. My main reason for even considering a shove is the possibility of him folding and picking up 550 pot. And the blinds were going up shortly so i feel its time to take risks.

I feel like any time you're up against a player raising 4x you have to figure your fold equity is less than it would be when the raise is 3x, and that's what this spot boils down to. We're obviously not shoving JT for value, so how effective will our raise be as a bluff? How often is he going to fold? Unfortunately just based on your stack size and the size of his raise, the pot odds you're offering him are just going to be too good for him to fold here. I mean, I guess you said he's folded to some 3-bets previously, but here's he's UTG and like I said, his raise is huge. So I'd just muck this one.

Blinds 50:100
UTG (t1715)
MP1 (t585)
MP2 (t1930)
Hero (CO) (t1400)
Button (t2960)
SB (t2475)
BB (t2435)

Hero's M: 9.33

Preflop: Hero is CO with

,

1 fold, MP1 calls t100, 3 folds, SB bets t600, 2 folds

MP2 was only decent player at the table and was playing tight. The SS ive seen limp and fold to raises a few times so his limp does not concern me. its the other 3 to my left that had a loser range. I was able to steal a few times when i was on BTN and it was just the blinds.

33 is another hand that we're not really shoving for value, so we're looking to see how often we can steal the pot without a showdown. With 3 players left to act plus an extra limper my first instinct is that we aren't gonna take it down often enough pre-flop for this to be worth it. If the pot were a more significant portion of our stack, say 35% or so, then it might be a risk worth taking, but right now I would say just muck this one too.

Blinds:75/150
Button (t1765)
SB (t335)
BB (t1930)
Hero (UTG) (t1400)
MP1 (t2960)
MP2 (t2675)
CO (t2435)

Hero's M: 6.22

Preflop: Hero is UTG with

,

I cant afford the blinds to go through can I? Should i Shove this UTG?

These were only a few hands that i picked out after reviewing the session. I feel like i missed a lot of opportunities to build my stack cause i wasn't sure how to attack these types of players. they are not your typical call ATC loose players but they were just as bad. So how do you attack these players when your not getting cards but need to build stack before bubble play. Holy crap this got long i apologize.

You still have almost 10bb's, so I would say you can definitely afford to go through the blinds. It's when you're between 3-5bb's that you should start to be concerned. At that point it's going to be less -$EV to shove in the dark than to go through the blinds, even if SNGWiz doesn't agree.

To get better just keep on doing what you're doing, in spots that you're unsure, post them in the forums.

 

[Logan2]

All 3 hands are fold for me.

you have 14bbs, 14bbs, 9bbs.

Utg is the worst place for a steal, you have the whole table behind that could wake up with a hand.

Co and Btn are very good places but this are very bad hands, i think you will get better results pushing from sb versus bb with air than this hands.

Like CJ comment, 3-5bb left is almost the same like pushing ATC (but i will not start to be concerned, will be in panic), you need to start to be concerned around 12bb´s or lower, starting there you can pass to push mode, you can´t raise with 9-12bb´s unless you plan to go all the way, if you raise 2x or 3x and get call and then want to make a cbet in flop you already have half of your stack there, if you raise and plan to fold if no hit then is better to push in the first place because you have fold equity and players will need a really strong hand to put his game in line.

With 14bbs you still can wait 2-4 rounds to get decent hands, you still have 7 people there, usually when are down to 6-5 is when you get to the point to start to steal or if you have a decent stack (15-18bbs) then you could make some tries just raising.

You don´t want to gamble with 33 unless players are tight or you get to final3, or you get down to 5bbs, so is better not kill your game tryng to steal with such bad hands and better wait for good spots or better hands.

I usually make some "tries" early-medium levels versus the 2 players to my left to see how they will react later in the game versus my steal from sb vs bb, and from BTN vs bb, but will be very read dependant and table dependant, some times table is very tight and let you steal with short raises, some times they will call any raise or push back, in this scenario is where is better to shove instead of raise.

If you are playing $1.20´s this are a good videos to see about pushing/calling ranges with 5-7-8-10-12bbs versus bad players (wich mostly will face in this stakes).

http://www.youtube.com/user/DragtheBar#p/u/3/NS4igFkpOOc

this are 4 videos of greg jones (zerosum79) about abc in sng´s

And this is the thread if want to comment or ask about it, i think some players post some ranges too there.

https://www.cardschat.com/f53/zerosum79-discusses-abcs-playing-sngs-178652/

First video is kind of slow with lot of talk and no action but be patience the other 3 are gold (10minutes each), notice that talk about calling ranges but can be use too for pushing because for push you actually need weaker hands, so usually work well.

Hope it helps.

 

[Clambake420]

awesome guys thanks for the replies. Looks like i made the right moves then. I was just unbelievably card dead this entire tourney and just felt if i kept folding id just blind myself out, but i figured all these were bad spots. Ill keep working at this and see if i can finally get my winrate a little higher.

 

[cjatud2012]

I'd appreciate it if some of you could offer your thoughts on this thread: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-poker-59/folding-short-stack-stt-bubble-185741/

Actually when we're in a 9 man sng the only thing on our mind is making the money...until we're in the money. Then the new goal is to win the tournament. When we're going to be ITM 40% of the time on average it's silly to try and win the tournament instead of focus on making the money. In MTTs and 45 man sngs our ITM rate is much much much lower, therefor we're willing to take the extra risk and go ahead and get it in here. If this situation was presented to me in a MTT sng there's no way on God's green earth that I will fold this.

Also for the record, if everyone on the table is playing like a loose maniac, we'll probably be able to fold to the money more often than not, so we should only be taking "sure things" compared to adding in risk. The better the players are around you the more risk you should be willing to incur.

I kinda skimmed over this the first time, it's interesting that you mention this because I started a discussion on a similar topic in another thread: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-poker-59/minor-peeve-when-comes-stts-185076/ wouldn't mind if you chimed in .

The debate on what our goals are in a STT are very interesting, as it very much dictates how we should play imo... Like, for example, as you say if our first goal was to cash, then second goal is to win, what do we do while we're trying to get ITM that will help us accomplish our goal of winning the STT? I don't really know the right answer and I don't think it's necessarily black and white what our goals should be. But I like talking about it because I feel like I learn a lot each time, and each time I try harder to keep those same things in mind when I'm actually playing.

 

[Logan2]

I'd appreciate it if some of you could offer your thoughts on this thread: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-poker-59/folding-short-stack-stt-bubble-185741/

Done, CJ.

 

[Lofwyr]

I'll check those out at some point CJ. I'm curious if anyone here also uses 2+2? There's an old thread there by "the lipo fund" which is supposed to have a video to go with, but the links are all broken. Kind of wondering if anyone here knows how to find the video (lipo fund 45-man video). Haven't made an account on 2+2 so figure I'll ask here and still just lurk there for a while.

 

[Clambake420]

Oh man i can not wait for October to be over, this month has been the month from hell. ugggggggh i just want out of the 1.20s but the bankroll keeps going the wrong way. and now the .02nl ring games are killing me. lady luck is evil.

 

[pat3392]

I'll check those out at some point CJ. I'm curious if anyone here also uses 2+2? There's an old thread there by "the lipo fund" which is supposed to have a video to go with, but the links are all broken. Kind of wondering if anyone here knows how to find the video (lipo fund 45-man video). Haven't made an account on 2+2 so figure I'll ask here and still just lurk there for a while.

I use 2+2 regularly(I've used just about every poker forum). I have no idea about that video, but there's no harm in joining and asking someone else there. Sorry I can't help much, they aren't such a close community over there, I guess because a lot of them are serious grinders who play against each other.

Oh man i can not wait for October to be over, this month has been the month from hell. ugggggggh i just want out of the 1.20s but the bankroll keeps going the wrong way. and now the .02nl ring games are killing me. lady luck is evil.

Hmm bad mentality. Please take no offense, but I can tell by the post you made that you have a lot of huge leaks. That's the beautiful thing about variance, it let's weak players blame there "luck." Focus on the only thing that you can change, your skill level. In the long run, it doesn't really matter how luckly/unlucky you have been(unless of course you need it for the bills =/)

 

[Lofwyr]

I use 2+2 regularly(I've used just about every poker forum). I have no idea about that video, but there's no harm in joining and asking someone else there. Sorry I can't help much, they aren't such a close community over there, I guess because a lot of them are serious grinders who play against each other.

Ok, I guess I'll have to register and ask there. Apparently it was quite a good video (and the dude who made it is also funny it seems).

The bad run ended for a short while, it was wonderful. Made 3 $2.2/180 FTs in a row. Hell, not just in a row but at the same time! Not so wonderfully though, I took 2nd/5th/8th. In the 2nd place finish, HU had the guy totally crushed but couldn't close the deal. Like started with 5:1 chip lead. Villain just got a sick run of cards (culminating with QQ against my KQo after he'd doubled through me 2x in a row). Played the HU about as well as I could...villain was pretty bad/passive. I love how I played the one I took 5th in too, just lost a flip while gunning for a dominant stack (BB/chip leader woke with AKo). However, I made a HUGE error in the one I took 8th on. Just HUGE. I felt like such a donkey afterward, but still had 2 FT's running at the same time (kind of an awesome feeling playing 3 of them at once!) and I had to lock it in and play my A game, which I did.

Anyway, I'll see if I can dig up the specific hand, but basically: It's my BB...i'm 2nd of 8. MP min-raise(by third stack), BTN call (by chip leader) and I had 35s. I let the pot odds overrule sense (6:1+!!!)...flop came 2/4/7 rainbow...pot was 30k, I shoved 45k into it. Proceed to hang head in shame. I didn't think I could fold to a raise or that c/r had better FE. I also was, at the time, totally in love with my OESD+BDFD and didn't consider folding it at all. Result was chip leader had slowplayed AA, snap-called and left me with 6 outs Who knows how I finish if I just lay my hand down PF like a sane person?

 

[cjatud2012]

I don't really like it when I get disconnected from Tilt... Especially when I have KK and I raise from early position...

 

[WiZZiM]

I have to say, coming back to take second in a tournament when your left at 150 chips is a really good feeling .

 

[pat3392]

Ok, I guess I'll have to register and ask there. Apparently it was quite a good video (and the dude who made it is also funny it seems).

There's a thread on there that 45 SnG regs post stuff; kind of like this thread but less of a community feel and just for 45. Anyway, tell me the name of the video or a link to the page and I'll ask them

As for that hand, it wasn't terrible. The only problem with it was that someone min-raised which was 1/3 of there stack. This screams monster. So you should have just jumped out of the way because you are not going to hit something often enough to crack his QQ+ He may have something like AK though. I like your mentality though, I get the feeling you'll do very well in the 45. Aggression is key, especially vs. the nits at the $3

 

[pat3392]

I have to say, coming back to take second in a tournament when your left at 150 chips is a really good feeling .

Heh sure is. I done the same the other day; lost a big hand, had 2BB left, doubled up in the BB with garbage, pushed 3 times in a row and got some lol folds and the 4th time they finnaly called and I had AA. aaaah the satisfaction

 

[cardplayer52]

Been doing really good when im in situations with tighter players where i have a better understanding of hand ranges. but I found i struggle once i got loose players to my left where raising the blinds with Kx, connected cards, A2o type hands seems shaky.

If players on the left are loose you really do have to nit up. If you have a lot of blinds then you might try limping hands that you'll be able to outplay them with post flop w/position. Even min. raising is an option in some spots as your likely to see a flop no matter how big a raise you put in preflop. ofc if you do have a big hand go ahead and make a bigger open as you want to built the pot as quick as possible. If they are really aggro post flop as well and too loose pre then I will often start push/folding upto 15bb preflop. I think its better to just jam KQs for 14bbs on the button than to have to fold it post flop to aggression, especially when the villian going to flat your open instead of 3betting.

 

[pat3392]

I thought this was a funny hand, what do you guys reckon opponents have here?:

poker stars $6.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 9 players

MP2: t1500 75 BBs
CO: t1490 74.50 BBs
BTN: t1430 71.50 BBs
SB: t1480 74 BBs
BB: t1500 75 BBs
UTG: t1600 80 BBs
UTG+1: t1500 75 BBs
UTG+2: t1500 75 BBs
Hero (MP1): t1500 75 BBs

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is MP1 with T

6

UTG raises to t60, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t60, 6 folds

Flop: (t150) K

K

Q

(2 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks

Turn: (t150) 6

(2 players)
UTG bets t20, UTG+2 calls t20

River: (t190) A

(2 players)
UTG bets t60, UTG+2 raises to t120, UTG raises to t180, UTG+2 raises to t240, UTG raises to t300, UTG+2 raises to t360, UTG raises to t1520 all in, UTG+2 calls t1060 all in

 

[Logan2]

I don't really like it when I get disconnected from Tilt... Especially when I have KK and I raise from early position...

I was playing at that time also, good for me that only have 1 game left, but get disconnected when 2 players go allin in the bubble, when finally get back we were 3 left and 1 player was still disconnected/sitout and never comeback, so the other player and me just keep taking turns to steal the blinds of the sitout until he get busted, then we go to fight, im sure if this happen when have all my 8 tables will be cursing fulltilt.

By coincidence after that game get the need it points to complete Silver Iron man in October, first time reached, and my respects to the ones reaching iron man month after month, is a really hard work.

 

[WiZZiM]

I thought this was a funny hand, what do you guys reckon opponents have here?:

Poker Stars $6.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 9 players

MP2: t1500 75 BBs
CO: t1490 74.50 BBs
BTN: t1430 71.50 BBs
SB: t1480 74 BBs
BB: t1500 75 BBs
UTG: t1600 80 BBs
UTG+1: t1500 75 BBs
UTG+2: t1500 75 BBs
Hero (MP1): t1500 75 BBs

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is MP1 with T

6

UTG raises to t60, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t60, 6 folds

Flop: (t150) K

K

Q

(2 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks

Turn: (t150) 6

(2 players)
UTG bets t20, UTG+2 calls t20

River: (t190) A

(2 players)
UTG bets t60, UTG+2 raises to t120, UTG raises to t180, UTG+2 raises to t240, UTG raises to t300, UTG+2 raises to t360, UTG raises to t1520 all in, UTG+2 calls t1060 all in

UTG has pocket 2's, Other guy has 10 high

 

[Lofwyr]

heh. In all seriousness I see UTG+2 with like...A6o or something and UTG with a crappy K (K9s?)

Also, I don't know the specific name of the video. All I've ever seen it called is "Lipo Fund's 45-man video" or something along that line...maybe it's "The Lipo Fund". Dunno.

edit: random question...what is a "go and go" as far as poker lingo is concerned?

 

[WiZZiM]

You mean "stop and go" or "limp and go", right?

 

[pat3392]

Nah way of. That both had KQ..... Think about it. They both check and they must suck the other in. Then, one thinks that he must get value but not scare him of, so he min bets and the other thinking he is sucking him in hardcore, just flat calls. Then a bigger bet on the river to gain some value and the other players plan works so he captilizes on it with a min-raise, value and so villain won't fold. Then the min raises for the same reason and after 5 or so min suck in raises one boldly pushes.

A lesson on how fish play the nuts XD

By the way, asked the 2+2 about the vid

 

[cjatud2012]

I thought this was a funny hand, what do you guys reckon opponents have here?:

Poker Stars $6.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 9 players

MP2: t1500 75 BBs
CO: t1490 74.50 BBs
BTN: t1430 71.50 BBs
SB: t1480 74 BBs
BB: t1500 75 BBs
UTG: t1600 80 BBs
UTG+1: t1500 75 BBs
UTG+2: t1500 75 BBs
Hero (MP1): t1500 75 BBs

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is MP1 with T

6

UTG raises to t60, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t60, 6 folds

Flop: (t150) K

K

Q

(2 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks

Turn: (t150) 6

(2 players)
UTG bets t20, UTG+2 calls t20

River: (t190) A

(2 players)
UTG bets t60, UTG+2 raises to t120, UTG raises to t180, UTG+2 raises to t240, UTG raises to t300, UTG+2 raises to t360, UTG raises to t1520 all in, UTG+2 calls t1060 all in

they were colluding imo

I was playing at that time also, good for me that only have 1 game left, but get disconnected when 2 players go allin in the bubble, when finally get back we were 3 left and 1 player was still disconnected/sitout and never comeback, so the other player and me just keep taking turns to steal the blinds of the sitout until he get busted, then we go to fight, im sure if this happen when have all my 8 tables will be cursing fulltilt.

By coincidence after that game get the need it points to complete Silver Iron man in October, first time reached, and my respects to the ones reaching iron man month after month, is a really hard work.

Nice job on Iron Man Logan!

 

[Lofwyr]

You mean "stop and go" or "limp and go", right?

Don't think so (though I don't precisely know those terms either). Saw the term 'go n GO' or 'go and go' a couple times while perusing the 2+2 forums.

Having tried to figure it out on my own, it seems like a PF 3-bet with intent to shove most flops. An "advanced" re-steal move for stack sizes that are too big to just resteal shove.

@pat: that makes sense. I didn't figure them both to be slowplaying that hand tho. Thought a fishy just spiked an ace on the river and overvalued

 

[pat3392]

Don't think so (though I don't precisely know those terms either). Saw the term 'go n GO' or 'go and go' a couple times while perusing the 2+2 forums.

Having tried to figure it out on my own, it seems like a PF 3-bet with intent to shove most flops. An "advanced" re-steal move for stack sizes that are too big to just resteal shove.

I do this all the time but wasn't aware that it had a hand. I've posted a number of hands on 2+2 when I've done this and no one has ever called it anything.

Basically, one raises an amount so there's about a pot sized bet behind. The mistake that are inducing villain to make is to call preflop with an inferior hand( a lot of guys aren't stupid enough to fold on the flop) So you need a good hand for it. Defintely a good move to have. Good for extracting most value when facing a limper and have 8-16 BB

 

[Lofwyr]

Yeah, people calling 3-bets and playing fit or fold make for excellent dead money snacks.

I decided to move up a tad as I'd built my BR to ~$600. Playing 4 tables continuous during my sessions, so I tried a 2/2 split. 2x $2.2/180 & 2x $6.5/45. It was a bit tough to wrap my head around at first, but once I had played with the split it went smoothly. The 45's play almost exactly like the 180's, they just have a less forgiving blind structure. Play on the bubble and ITM seems pretty standard though. Getting 7th just isn't worth it and even with 8 left the aggressive approach is often best.

I also figured that skipping the $3's would be fine as I'm splitting time between something I'm pretty sure I crush and these new games. I was on a tear yesterday, took down a 1st place after the 3-at once. I'm confident my BR will remain healthy as long as I keep a couple of those $2.20's running alongside whatever else I play. Within reason that is.

It's kind of funny to sweat friends playing online now that I've gotten a better feel for this MTT game. When I advise them to shove in a clear ATC spot with 36o they shoot me that "you're totally nuts" look. Even better, I've followed through a couple times and gotten unlucky (SB has AK/AQ) and so they think I'm even more nuts now. Quite amusing

 

[pat3392]

Yeah, people calling 3-bets and playing fit or fold make for excellent dead money snacks.

It's not so much that they fold, they rarely do. It's more abusing the auto piloting fish that doesn't look at stack sizes; he limps, gets raised and thinks, "oh well it's only =x amount more, let's see a flop" then we shove and he's like, "oh, it only cost this much more to call, I guess I'm committed." If they ever fold then that's a huge success. The trick is to raise a little less than 1/3 effective stack

Playing 4 tables continuous during my sessions, so I tried a 2/2 split. 2x $2.2/180 & 2x $6.5/45.

Stick to one game and try multi-tabling more. Don't jump straight to the $6.50, they are much tougher than the $2.20 180. If you want, we could go over a few of your HH and I can tell if I think your game is up for them.

Focus on adding more tables, 4 is nothing whatsoever. MTT are pretty straight forward to play and have 30-40 tables going whilst playing them.

100BI may not be enough. I've recently went through a 80BI downswing and some games later am now on a 60BI upswing. People have reported 150 BI downswings, followed up by massive up swings. These games are quite swingy and 100BI is probably borderline. Well, since you 4 table it should be fine. I'll post some graphs of people playing the 45

Getting 7th just isn't worth it and even with 8 left the aggressive approach is often best.

Not necessarily true. I used to be super aggressive the whole way through and it was good at the $3 since they were such nits but it's just a dumb plan at the $6. You have to be considerate of the bubble and even in the money one should be playing semi-nitty.

It's kind of funny to sweat friends playing online now that I've gotten a better feel for this MTT game. When I advise them to shove in a clear ATC spot with 36o they shoot me that "you're totally nuts" look. Even better, I've followed through a couple times and gotten unlucky (SB has AK/AQ) and so they think I'm even more nuts now. Quite amusing

It is hey! Even better when playing live MTT, truly is a blast. I'm pegged as a super donk/maniac that pushes ATC and am super lucky. I get away with pushing stuff like 24o UTG because since everyone is frustrated at me they give away so many tells, the hands is a big give away it seems. Really is a blast

I asked about that video and was referred to a thread with this link:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=3GCK31VR

It has no video though.... Does it suppose to be just sound? It's him talking through a mic whilst playing, can't actually see the action.