My MTT Strategies

[Real Deal363]

My first win!! Thanks Snowmobiler!!!!

I have to give credit where credit is due and that belongs to Snowmobiler. I couldn't seem to make it to the final table because blinds were eating me up. I read the first post and knew what I had to do. Push, double up, then loosin up!

Here are the stats from my last 500 hands: Any improvements I should make let me know. I want to get better, I just realized because of this win I have a ticket to the main event December 6 for a chance to win 1,000.00!!! I'm poor lol.

500 hands played and saw flop:
- 13 times out of 70 while in small blind (19%)
- 33 times out of 69 while in big blind (48%)
- 45 times out of 361 in other positions (12%)
- a total of 91 times out of 500 (18%)

Pots won at showdown - 14 out of 25 (56%)
Pots won without showdown - 34


Thanks again for the great post I can't wait to finish reading it, but now I have another tourney!!

 

[Roger Muller]

Frustration from a cash player: I'm a cash game player. Just recently I started playing tournaments. I play at least 2 a day. Now, maybe this is not enough yet to actually ask HOW you guys do it? But it seems I always get eliminated the same way. My question is about LUCK factor. Does luck contribute a major factor in winning a tourney? It seems that every time I enter a tourney I go out the same way.

 

[Snowmobiler]

Congrats Real Deal363,

1st I would like to share the credit with the other strategy contributors to this thread.

As for your stats,having things in context is always important in determining correctness of play!

It seems by looking at your hands played from the BB compared to total hands played that at least some of this was short handed play.

If these were all 9 man tables your BB hands play would be way to high.Hands played from SB and BB are played out of position and should be played with a tighter range generally.

I really like your pots won without showdown,it tells me you are doing a good job of betting and keeping the pressure on.

Pots won at showdown percentage is a little low.You will learn to get away from some of the hands.If you are betting and being called then its not so bad.If others are betting and you are calling ,then your calls are a little loose.

18% of total hands played is a little high but with small sample size and some short handed play it might be ok.

These are generalities since Im pretty sure that I dont have all the #s in context, so take this with a grain of salt.

A big CONGRATS to your success and I hope you win the $1000 1st prize!



Snow

 

[Snowmobiler]

Frustration from a cash player: I'm a cash game player. Just recently I started playing tournaments. I play at least 2 a day. Now, maybe this is not enough yet to actually ask HOW you guys do it? But it seems I always get eliminated the same way. My question is about LUCK factor. Does luck contribute a major factor in winning a tourney? It seems that every time I enter a tourney I go out the same way.

Over a small sample size luck plays a big factor in winning MTTs.

The more you play and the larger your sample size, it will give you a very close approximation of your level of play.

If you are getting Aces or Kings cracked all-in pre-flop,then dont worry about busting the same way.

If you are calling all-ins and losing at showdown then you need to look at some things.

Look closely at the odds you are giving people to chase hands.Keep your odds really bad for them and make em pay to chase.

If you give us more specifics Im sure there would be some good suggestions.

Thanks for your question!




Snow

 

[Real Deal363]

ok Snow and anyone interested.

I'm not quite sure what short-handed means (lol), but
i will try to clarify a few things for the record.

Both the BB and the showdown percentages were caused by the last person on the table.

Blinds were 16k and we were pretty balance at 120,000. So we were battling it out. When I had a King or higher I would push! Not great advice but sometimes they would stay and sometimes they would give me the blind. Took about 6 or 7 hands to actually catch him with one.

Me- A J
Him- J-5
Flop- can't remember exactly but I do know that there was a jack! No 5 no A just J!

Up until the last players I had a 80 percent wins at showdown and a 9% hands played. My BB play was a bit higher than the rest with like an 20 percent but with the fact that it was in the late pos and very few wanted to stay in, I got lucky a few times with it and it never cost me anything.

I started this climb with $13.00 in my account and the difference between 1rst and 2nd was 9 so I really wasn't worried about losing but at the same time I wanted to win and knew I had to do it fast or suffer a blind defeat.

Thanks again!

And I will get a bigger sample for you all to look at maybe it will tell more.

This is just from the tourney:

During current Hold'em session you were dealt 104 hands and saw flop:
- 12 out of 19 times while in big blind (63%)
- 10 out of 22 times while in small blind (45%)
- 7 out of 63 times in other positions (11%)
- a total of 29 out of 104 (27%)
Pots won at showdown - 10 of 17 (58%)
Pots won without showdown - 19

 

[Snowmobiler]

Short handed-I normally think of as 6 people or less at the table.

I have won quite a few tournaments with similar stats,and usually my BB and sb are lowerer percentages.Im willing to defend my blinds but I wouldnt say Im aggressive about it (said for perspective)

I wasnt sure if the "blinds" was a total of blinds and antes or the BB was 16,000 but either way pushing with a K is normal.

80% wins at show down is going to win you tournaments and 9% is a little tighter than me I think,but some of the guys with alot of hands on me can tell you more accurate.I don't mind if someone post my stats here,I would do it but I dont have a HUD or keep up with stuff like that other than looking at my stats when I reach a final table, that I can get in the chat box.Primitive I know,but its how I enjoy playing.



Snow

 

[SavagePenguin]

My question is about LUCK factor. Does luck contribute a major factor in winning a tourney?

Yes. Make no mistake about it. Luck is a major factor.
In cash games you can always rebuy, but in tournaments there's no coming back when all of your chips are gone, *and* your stack to big blinds ratio gets increasingly smaller, *and* other people must be knocked out for you to advance to the ever-increasing payourts. So you must make big moves, and if one of those moves fails you are often eliminated. That makes luck a significant factor.

However, it takes skill to consistently get to a place where you have to get lucky (the end game). Once there it also takes skill to put yourself into situations where you'll get the maximum return for what you are likely to be up against.

By the end blinds are huge and your M is generally low so your options are limited. It often comes down to shove-or-fold poker. Let's face it, if you shove four times when you're a 60% to win each time, it takes luck to survive.
Your plays become based on what the likely result is in relationship to the expected return. But the likely result doesn't always manifest itself. Heck, let's face it, the likely result isn't all that likely. Maybe it'll happen 2/3 of the time, but if you make a dozen "2/3 of the time" decisions some are bound to bite you in the butt. So maybe you need that those "works 2/3 of the time" to work 80% of the time to win. Or maybe you need to win a two or three coin flips in a row to win? That's when luck comes into play.
Sometimes your 66% (2/3-of-the-time) moves win 100% of the time. Sometimes your 66% moves win 0% of the time. Sometimes you win a coin flip three times in a row, and sometimes you lose three times in a row. These are all likely short term results.

But again, it takes proper stack management and solid play to consistantly put yourself in position to win. It takes skill to get to a place where you have to get lucky, and it takes skill to maximize your return based on what is *likely* to happen, even though what actually happens is based on lucky.

So in the short term, luck is a major factor.
Over the long haul, things even out and the better players make more money.

 

[SavagePenguin]

I don't mind if someone post my stats here

I have 1,000 hands on you at UltimateBet.
Maybe 2/3 are $, 1/3 freeroll?

It's a small sample though. People should not look at it as "1,000 hands." It's more like a few hundred hands at early play, a few hundred mid-tourney, and a few hundred in the late stages.

And you should probably break it down more than that. These broad numbers don't reflect the situation-specific moves. Being short stacked or next to an aggro player or whatever will change those numbers.

I pretty much ignore stats in tournaments. The HUD is there so I can see mucked hole cards at showdown, and so I can get a free starting impression if someone new comes to the table who I've played before.

 

[the lab man]

Some interesting things jump out immediately.. Snow is much looser at beginning levels, Tightens up at Mid levels which he should and is aggressive where he should be at Highest levels. Very Nice


Can you clarify to me, is there a standard # or average for 3 bets of fold to 3bet ratio??? Whats good and bad or is it based on the player making the bet????

 

[Snowmobiler]

Some interesting things jump out immediately.. Snow is much looser at beginning levels, Tightens up at Mid levels which he should and is aggressive where he should be at Highest levels. Very Nice


Can you clarify to me, is there a standard # or average for 3 bets of fold to 3bet ratio??? Whats good and bad or is it based on the player making the bet????

Over this sample my fold to 3 bets looks high to me but I dont have any idea what a good/normal stat is.Maybe someone with more expertise at this can help here.




Snow

 

[Maid Marian]

Snow, I want to thank you again (along with SP & Trigga) for getting me to final table last night...my 2nd ever! I played pretty well considering I'm so new to Poker (only in my 4th month now). But, I would never have made it if not for all of my friends here at CC! I finished 7th...and got paid! Next time though, I will be first. I know I made plenty of mistakes, but I'm really learning due to my excellent tutors! Thanks again!

 

[TPC]

Over this sample my fold to 3 bets looks high to me but I dont have any idea what a good/normal stat is.Maybe someone with more expertise at this can help here.

It's not a great graph to really look at that. It's not telling you what position you are in or if you were faced with three bet shoves and had to fold. If you are getting three bet when you are OOP, you should be folding way more than calling, so 80% would be about right.

You would really need to look at the positional stats and see what hands you are laying down to a three bet and if there were any hands you could four bet or four bet shove with.

I would also look at when you are three bet from the blinds. How many of those hands did you lay down, where you would have position after the flop? Was there any that you were priced in to call or that you could four bet?

Then you have to take into account the size of the data, it's only 1k hands. So, you kinda have to look at all that stuff to really get a good idea if that 80% is ok or high.

 

[Errant Dog]

Hey Snowmobiler,

I've been reading the thread for a while, and this will be my first post in it. Last night I am deep into an MTT, blinds are at 1250/2500 and 250 ante. Here are the stacks:
SB (t43816)
BB (t181737)
UTG (t80665)
UTG+1 (t83284)
MP1 (t83501)
MP2 (t282092)
CO (t45084)
Hero (Button) (t57716)

My M is 10.04.

I am dealt A,5 off-suit.

Action is folded to me, and I shove. The BB ends up calling with 9,9 and I end up beating him when I flop two pair. Needless to say, he was not at all happy with my play. Was this the right move? I seem to remember you or someone else saying earlier in this thread that you shove with a wide variety with hands when you think you can get someone to lay down a hand. Or was this not the right time for me to be open shoving PF with ace rag?

 

[TPC]

Nothing wrong with that move at all. Your M is right at 10, it's folded to you and you are on the button, only two players left to act behind you. You would be wrong if you didn't shove there!!!

Now if you called a shove with A5 there, then that would be a questionable play.

 

[Snowmobiler]

Hey Snowmobiler,

I've been reading the thread for a while, and this will be my first post in it. Last night I am deep into an MTT, blinds are at 1250/2500 and 250 ante. Here are the stacks:
SB (t43816)
BB (t181737)
UTG (t80665)
UTG+1 (t83284)
MP1 (t83501)
MP2 (t282092)
CO (t45084)
Hero (Button) (t57716)

My M is 10.04.

I am dealt A,5 off-suit.

Action is folded to me, and I shove. The BB ends up calling with 9,9 and I end up beating him when I flop two pair. Needless to say, he was not at all happy with my play. Was this the right move? I seem to remember you or someone else saying earlier in this thread that you shove with a wide variety with hands when you think you can get someone to lay down a hand. Or was this not the right time for me to be open shoving PF with ace rag?

This shove is standard,If my M was 13 I might do 2.5 x and fold to a re-raise which would likely be an all-in bet,and still have M 10 and can shove the next hand with draw potential. You really dont want called when you push here because you are behind alot.Congrats on your finish although you didnt say what position you finished in? Let us know your next post



Snow

 

[SavagePenguin]

It's an fine move if it's folded to you on the button. So yeah, nothing wrong with that.

However, if you were in early position I think shoving it a bit rash for an M of 10.
Likewise, it's too rash if someone VPIP's ahead of you.
After all, it's a move based on the strength of only one card.

 

[Errant Dog]

This shove is standard,If my M was 13 I might do 2.5 x and fold to a re-raise which would likely be an all-in bet,and still have M 10 and can shove the next hand with draw potential. You really dont want called when you push here because you are behind alot.Congrats on your finish although you didnt say what position you finished in? Let us know your next post



Snow

Thanks for all of the feedback everyone. I ended up finishing 4th for $300. I am pretty happy with it since I went in to the final table as the short stack. It was by far my best finish. Over seven hours of tournament play left me exhausted though.

 

[JoeShowdown]

I pretty much ignore stats in tournaments. The HUD is there so I can see mucked hole cards at showdown, and so I can get a free starting impression if someone new comes to the table who I've played before.

Does this mean you see everyone's dealt cards even if they folded preflop? I'm unfamiliar with HUD. Can you replay the tourney and see everyone's hole cards?

 

[Snowmobiler]

It shows anyones hand that called the last river bet joe.


Snow

 

[SavagePenguin]

Does this mean you see everyone's dealt cards even if they folded preflop? I'm unfamiliar with HUD. Can you replay the tourney and see everyone's hole cards?

If someone is involved in showdown (IE, they don't fold) you have a right to see their cards. This rule is in place to help catch collusion.
It is considered an insult to ask to see someone's hole cards in a live game because basically you are implying that they are cheaters.

Online the mucked showdown cards are listed in the hand history (if you were a part of the hand. Observers cannot see them.). Even without a HUD you can open up the hand history and see what they mucked.

The HUD looks at the hand history and pops that information onto the screen, along with how many chips they won or lost in that hand. There is a slight delay, so it usually pops up as the next hand is being dealt.

Here's what PT3 says:

When a hand goes to showdown the hole cards of all the players who saw the showdown will be shown briefly beside their screen name, along with the 5 board cards in the center of the table.

Another great feature of HUD is the ability to see how much you and your opponents won or lost in a hand. You won't need to go back into your hand history to see your net winnings and losses in a hand, as you can now see the information right on your table at the end of the hand.

On occasion, in the micro limit ring games I have typed out "What did you have? Sheesh. Had to be something like [blank]" in the chat box ahead of time, then as soon as I see their hand I put in the hand and hit Enter to post it.

 

[ozvillain]

Hey great thread,

I'm currently trying to work on my mtt strats - my main problem is I'm overly aggressive (also a chick, so bucking one stereotype there)

I ve found so far I'm doing pretty well in sngs - have trippled my bankroll after going bust a couple of times and can now exercise decent br management. The problem I had was I lacked the patience for sngs and I'd quite often - today being a prime example - build myself up a lovely big stack and then failing to sit back and just chill, only playing the big hands cos I have a huge M (I'm getting better at it but it doesn't come easily ) anyway my point was about bubble play when you're short stacked.

I know the general rule of thumb for mtt s is your better going bust and assuring yourself of a higher place but I'd like to suggest there are some instances where this isn the case.

Today I'm playing with an M of around 6m short stacked in the 50k gtd on stars. My position is around 248 - there are 320 players left - the top 288 get paid.

My argument against pushing all in with a big hand here is that even a double up would only take my M up to 11/12 and more importatly only take my position up to around 220

Busting out at 288 - cash payout - $52
Busting out at 220 - cash payout - $56

So basically at this stage I figured it was better to hang in there for a while and take the money rather than risk 42 bucks to win an extra 5.

In the end I think I did bust out at 220 when my qq ran into aa (I nearly put them down but was so short stacked) preflop.

Anyway the two lessons I learnt were
Dont play like a dickhead when you have a massive stack
Sometimes you re better to just hang on for the money

Am sure most of you will agree with the first one but what about the second and is it a case that these elemets only really apply in huge tourneys where about 1800 people are playing

 

[ozvillain]

Frustration from a cash player: I'm a cash game player. Just recently I started playing tournaments. I play at least 2 a day. Now, maybe this is not enough yet to actually ask HOW you guys do it? But it seems I always get eliminated the same way. My question is about LUCK factor. Does luck contribute a major factor in winning a tourney? It seems that every time I enter a tourney I go out the same way.

Dunno mate but I SUCK at cash games, I mean I'm just dreadful I can t do it, and always seem to get in a mess with big pots I'm not comfortable in - I really want to work on my cash game but they decimate my bankroll - I know that s not much help to you but I thought you might appreciate that it works the other way too

 

[ozvillain]

ooh and a note on hud - i find it quite useful to watch your own stats as they clarify the table image your presenting - that s just my 2 cents though

 

[SavagePenguin]

I know the general rule of thumb for mtt s is your better going bust and assuring yourself of a higher place but I'd like to suggest there are some instances where this isn the case.

That general rule applies to putting yourself in a position to get one of the top seats. The payout is gradual at first. Then payouts balloon at the end. You take chances to put yourself in position to hit this top-heavy finish.

If your M is low and there is a ton of play left, and the bubble is in sight, play to cash. That "play to win" strategy doesn't apply (much) in this situation. You are *not* in a position to put yourself in contention for a top finish and the difference between $0 and $52 is much MUCH greater than any difference in pay you'll get through doubling or tripling up.

Tournament life has value. And in the early stages, it's too valuable to risk it without something substantial.
Late in the game, closer to the bigger payouts, the chance at a bigger payout outweighs the value of staying alive.

ooh and a note on hud - i find it quite useful to watch your own stats as they clarify the table image your presenting - that s just my 2 cents though

Keep in mind that a lot of players don't pay attention to stats. Also, the stats you see are for that game, not for that table. So if you are aggro at the first table, then move and fold ten hands in a row, those who pay attention won't see that you've been VPIP'ing 30% this game (like your stats show you), but will think that you're a nit who finally has a hand.

I did ok at tournaments. Then I switched to rings and did even better. Then when I went to tournaments I brought the HUD with me, and did lousy.
One day I realized that on days I didn't use the HUD I did much better. I was using the HUD as a crutch. Instead of watching every move in the game I'd just look at the stats, and those are misleading because moves are based on situations, not so much on percentages. Over the short scale percentages don't mean much.
So I played without a HUD for awhile and did much better.

Now I use the HUD, but only as backup. Yeah, I occasionally rely on it as a crutch and watch TV and stuff, but when I'm playing to win I ignore it 95% of the time.

 

[Snowmobiler]

I believe cashing is one of my 1st goals in an MTT.I cant win it if I dont cash and If I cash my bankroll (in most cases) gains.If a tourney pays 9 spots then I would be more inclined to risk a guaranteed cash then If it pays 54 for example.The closer to the end,the more likely I risk not cashing.

I am a real bankroll nit,and cashing alot is a priority to me but not to the point that I would give up a good chance to win it all.

In ozvillian case with the differance being $52 or nothing then I would do everything I could to cash and then try to get chips immediately after bubble.

I dont think there is a right or wrong and that it is more of a tolorance for risk issue.I hate not cashing!



Snow