Min bet the new thang

[-Phil Ivey27]

How is it not profitable? He got people to put in 300 when they were crushed.

Yes that may be true, but everyone knows AA doesn't play well in multiway pots, and it is much more profitable if you can get it down to one opponent.

In a situation where As Ac raises, Q10h calls, and 76d calls. Aces become only a 58% favorite to win the hand. Sure still a favorite, definitely something you want as a guy with 13BB's, but also a great way to get your Aces cracked.

 

[Poker Orifice]

You have alot of patience sir.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Yes that may be true, but everyone knows AA doesn't play well in multiway pots, and it is much more profitable if you can get it down to one opponent.

In a situation where As Ac raises, Q10h calls, and 76d calls. Aces become only a 58% favorite to win the hand. Sure still a favorite, definitely something you want as a guy with 13BB's, but also a great way to get your Aces cracked.

I think you're perhaps missing the point. Calling a 13bb stack's raise here in this spot with QTs = "NOT GOOD" (no need to explain it further if you 'carefully' & 'thoroughly' read over baudib's posts above & try to digest it).

Not bein' a dick here.... just tryin' to be helpful because it's all laid out for you above already.
Question: What hands would you consider 'calling' here vs. a UTG (stack of 13bb) when they've raised from UTG? And what part of their range do you think they'd be just 'raising' here as opposed to open-shoving? (assuming they know what they're doing). What range of hands would/could we assume they'd be open-shoving with in this spot? & then again.. what part of this range would possibly 'raise' as opposed to shove in this spot?

 

[Poker Orifice]

.

Stop looking at your M and look at effective stacks. It costs $300 to call vs. someone who can only put in another 1,600.

....

 

[baudib1]

Yes that may be true, but everyone knows AA doesn't play well in multiway pots, and it is much more profitable if you can get it down to one opponent.

In a situation where As Ac raises, Q10h calls, and 76d calls. Aces become only a 58% favorite to win the hand. Sure still a favorite, definitely something you want as a guy with 13BB's, but also a great way to get your Aces cracked.

Everyone doesn't know that, because it's not true. AA plays great in multiway pots. AA is more profitable the more people are in the hand.

 

[Makwa]

move up to where they respect your raises

Stakes not the issue. Lots of disrespect at higher buyins also.

As for min-raising, where's the value in that for your monster hands?

2X, 3X, no diff if u r hoping for a 3bet.

min-raise has been fairly common late with so few bbs but large blinds that you can win the blinds enough to be profitable and can (sometimes) fold easier to a 3-bet shove.

I agree.

If you would have folded for more, this is a prime example of why you SHOULD minraise. You have no business calling a raise from a 13-BB stack with 3 people behind. Way to be results oriented.

Exactly.

Yes, I'm folding suited broadway cards to a min-raise vs. a 13-bb stack from EP. If you think you can profitably call with speculative hands here you understand nothing about tournament poker and don't know how to apply math to basic preflop spots.

Stop looking at your M and look at effective stacks. It costs $300 to call vs. someone who can only put in another 1,600.

If you make this call 20 times you will outflop AA 5% of the time, or 1 in 20. If you hold up that means you win around $2,400. That means 19 other times you are calling to fold the flop, you lose $5,700.

That doesn't include the times that the flop comes Q-high or T-high or KJx/J9x or with 2 hearts and you put more money in behind.

It also doesn't include the number of times you get squeezed by 2 very short stacks behind you, or get squeezed by a bigger stack behind you. You can probably expect to get squeezed about 25% of the time at an extremely conservative estimate.

That means, out of 20 calls:

You get squeezed 5 times and have to fold. -$1,500
You will outflop an overpair and win his stack .75 times. +$1,800
You face a bet when you're behind 14.25 times. Even if you fold all the times you don't flop 2 pair+ you've lost $4,275. That number grows when you call when you hit a piece.





You are 100% being results oriented. Show all the other times you call with QTs in this spot.

Deserves a repost. Txs Doc...

Everyone doesn't know that, because it's not true. AA plays great in multiway pots. AA is more profitable the more people are in the hand.

Is more profitable, but wins less often, and results in pain when cracked, hence the tendency to try and get HU and have 80% equity... But numbers probably prove u right overall. :icon_salu

 

[KoRnholio]

As for min-raising, where's the value in that for your monster hands?

PokerStars Hand #73709473390: Tournament #496750383, $0.50+$0.05 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2012/01/12 5:21:00 ET
Table '496750383 163' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: wolfgang7112 (15610 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 2: mai2002 (1900 in chips)
Seat 3: tomheine (5481 in chips)
Seat 4: Kamros (26103 in chips)
Seat 5: Danik7788 (7510 in chips)
Seat 6: Orion469 (6000 in chips)
Seat 7: zzzzbg (2010 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 8: timcsi1203 (6155 in chips)
Seat 9: shinkar1986 (1500 in chips)
timcsi1203: posts small blind 75
shinkar1986: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Orion469 [Th Qh]
wolfgang7112: folds
mai2002: raises 150 to 300
tomheine: folds
Kamros: calls 300
Danik7788: folds
Orion469: calls 300

It induces people to call crap trying to hit a gin flop!

 

[shinedown.45]

Now, the only reason I put forth the above HH was to show why you don't min-raise with monster hands, I'm in the group of ppl who know min-raising is not a good idea period.

The points given about my HH are well taken and that leak will now be plugged, thanks for the analysis but my stand on min-raising is firm, I will almost always call a min-raise for 5% of my stack in hopes of punishing those who think min-raising is cool.
As a matter of fact, there are alot of times I call a min-raise with suited broadway cards having a feeling that the min-raiser has me beat pre-flop, but the call barely takes from my stack so I don't have a problem making the call.

I know that most of the time I make this call I'm check/folding alot of the time to a dry flop but it had only costed me a small portion to call pre-flop.

Again, as for min-raisers who do it with monster hands, most do it in hopes of inducing a re-raise from weaker hands and I know this fully when deciding to make the call therefore I only call instead of re-raising.

Effective stacks play a large part in most of my decisions, so do playing styles of my opponents, but I sometimes like to mix my play up a bit, I'm still learning how to adjust my play instead of playing a solid TAG style through-out any tourney and as with anything you learn, there are bound to be some learning curves which you have to adjust to.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Now, the only reason I put forth the above HH was to show why you don't min-raise with monster hands, I'm in the group of ppl who know min-raising is not a good idea period.

The points given about my HH are well taken and that leak will now be plugged, thanks for the analysis but my stand on min-raising is firm, I will almost always call a min-raise for 5% of my stack in hopes of punishing those who think min-raising is cool.
.

It's not just about what we have in our stack. If we're headsup, we're 'effectively' only playing as deep as villain's stack.

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

I think you're perhaps missing the point. Calling a 13bb stack's raise here in this spot with QTs = "NOT GOOD" (no need to explain it further if you 'carefully' & 'thoroughly' read over baudib's posts above & try to digest it).

Not bein' a dick here.... just tryin' to be helpful because it's all laid out for you above already.
Question: What hands would you consider 'calling' here vs. a UTG (stack of 13bb) when they've raised from UTG? And what part of their range do you think they'd be just 'raising' here as opposed to open-shoving? (assuming they know what they're doing). What range of hands would/could we assume they'd be open-shoving with in this spot? & then again.. what part of this range would possibly 'raise' as opposed to shove in this spot?

If you read my full post I am not arguing the play by Q10. So that is not the point I am making therefore this has nothing to do with my post. Not trying to be a dick here either, honestly just discussing play.

I am arguing the play by AA UTG. To me regardless of the fact it can play great in multiway pots, it is not how you get the most out of AA, and I guarantee you will find yourself on the rail a lot of times. Why? Simply because AA looks great on a lot of flops and you'll have an awful hard time letting it go. I just provided you with the math when AA versus Q10h and 76d and it is 58%, like I said in my previous post it IS a favorite still, but I'm pretty sure no one wants to be a 58% favorite with AA. How about taking your 81%, stay in the game, and stop being greedy.

If this was such a great idea then why do most pros play it the exact opposite way, with ultimate aggression? The weak callers might be the ones making the bad move in the long run sure, but I don't believe the min raiser UTG with AA is justified in his action. Sure you can limp with AA, min raise with it, flat call with it, and they all can be very profitable for you, but their is a reason top players play it with great aggression.

 

[fugitive67]

yeah, i evolved from never doing it, to doing it only late, but now even in the middle of tourneys it's a decent strategy

to me it's all about accomplishing the same effect while risking less ... you are still saying, i have hand, you are still betting for value when you have best hand and vs. draws and you still have fold equity if you are making a play, so it's all good (for now)

 

[sam1chips]

ive always been a big fan of min betting with a great hand. it encourages the other player to come along, and possibly even reraise

 

[shinedown.45]

So I don't really get it, if your min-raising AA/KK/QQ pre-flop, when are you raising more preflop when your first to raise?

 

[baudib1]

If you read my full post I am not arguing the play by Q10. So that is not the point I am making therefore this has nothing to do with my post. Not trying to be a dick here either, honestly just discussing play.

I am arguing the play by AA UTG. To me regardless of the fact it can play great in multiway pots, it is not how you get the most out of AA, and I guarantee you will find yourself on the rail a lot of times. Why? Simply because AA looks great on a lot of flops and you'll have an awful hard time letting it go. I just provided you with the math when AA versus Q10h and 76d and it is 58%, like I said in my previous post it IS a favorite still, but I'm pretty sure no one wants to be a 58% favorite with AA. How about taking your 81%, stay in the game, and stop being greedy.

If this was such a great idea then why do most pros play it the exact opposite way, with ultimate aggression? The weak callers might be the ones making the bad move in the long run sure, but I don't believe the min raiser UTG with AA is justified in his action. Sure you can limp with AA, min raise with it, flat call with it, and they all can be very profitable for you, but their is a reason top players play it with great aggression.

It's not about how often you are on the rails, it's how to extract the maximum value.

Most pros do in fact minraise or 2.1X/2.2X as standard. They want you to call more often and have deeper stacks postflop.

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

It's not about how often you are on the rails, it's how to extract the maximum value.

Most pros do in fact minraise or 2.1X/2.2X as standard. They want you to call more often and have deeper stacks postflop.

I think deeper in tournaments when 2.1X/2.2X-2.5X is more common then sure it becomes that type of raise, that is most commonly from any position though..

They do that with AA but they also do it with a variety of other hands, it is not to simply get value out of them, it becomes their standard raise.

If they made it 3X with AA but 2.1X from late position with SC then that would be a flaw in their game that players can take advantage of.

I do agree with making raises like this later on in tournaments, I even do it myself. If that is the point then we both agree with eachother.

 

[tbdbitl]

I have seen the standard shifting to be 2.5xbb raises well before Black Friday. I have been hearing a lot of small ball players shifting down to 2xbb. I had been 2.5xbb raising for a long time in ring games.

 

[BEERM4N]

Stop looking at your M and look at effective stacks.

Just need to repost this because i dont think people get it....

Obv it may be fine to call or 3bet suited broadways against a min raise if your deep enough and in position. But cold calling a 13bb stack with garbage and players behind sets up a perfect spot for a squeeze which you will have to fold to. And you folding to a cbet when you miss the flop anyway. Also implied odds play a factor against this stack size.

Depending on the table i will usually play my AA exactly the same way as the hand you posted to induce the sort of garbage you called with. Otherwise its a shove.

 

[jaxpaboo]

QT is clear push or fold spot with short stack. You push and you gain fold equity.

Back to OP. I don't want to ever make a min raise preflop, b/c you now have to put a a bigger range on any callers. Put in a standard preflop raise, and your callers will have a smaller range.

Against a min raiser, my first thought at low limits is to put the min raiser on a weakest hand. Most of the time they can not stand a big raise. If I have a short stack, I will always push with any pair, any broadway (including QT ), any medium Ace.

 

[Cdub512]

i think a min bet is good depending on blinds levels compared to stack size, table image, and how the other players at your table are playing. also, this play is good in certain situations, especially right near the money bubble.

 

[RamdeeBen]

I think it's standard and has been standard for as long as I can remember since playing MTT's and getting shallow in tournaments where blinds increase. Midway, 2.5x is the normal, later stages, min raising is the norm and has always been the same since I started.

 

[gonetilnov]

the min raise is very effective late in tournaments.

unless they play back at you

if the raiser has less chips than you ,shove allin and they will ufold

 

[tbdbitl]

if the raiser has less chips than you ,shove allin and they will ufold

Good Luck with this!

 

[Poker Orifice]

the min raise is very effective late in tournaments.

unless they play back at you

if the raiser has less chips than you ,shove allin and they will ufold

Effective method for increasing one's post count or poster just keeps thinking of stuff to add to initial post?

 

[calicard]

Effective method for increasing one's post count or poster just keeps thinking of stuff to add to initial post?

His brain is Like a Train
Keeps rolling down the track.

 

[tbdbitl]

His brain is Like a Train
Keeps rolling down the track.

I knew someone would get him in line a the cars all back together!