KQs is MUCH better than KQ?

[F4STFORW4RD]

Only fish fold KQs preflop to a single raise.

So therefore, by implication, if somebody open shoves and I am last to play I should be calling that shove with KQs in a tournament, as only one person has raised and I would be a fish not to call it.

It's a great thing about poker, when people spout off stuff like this or say AK is a "drawing hand" or "a coinflip at best" you know instantly they are a moron.

As I pointed out to you when you hurled that insult at me before, Doyle Brunson was the "moron" that had made those comments, as I was quoting from his Super System book. I really value a lot of your posts, especially the ones where you provide detailed analysis to back up what you are saying, but sometimes I do find your writing style to be a little unnecessarily aggressive. Thanks anyway

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

Tone of this thread needs to change now.

In my db when calling a preflop raise I am up 80BB/100 with KQs and DOWN 125BB/100 with KQo. Pretty clear cut to me.

Overall both are winners but KQs is a much bigger winner (50BB/100 vs 8BB/100).

My 500K hand sample gives the clear edge to KQs.

So KQ loses when calling a pre-flop raise, but is marginally profitable for you overall.

Poker Stars - $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em (7 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB Hero: $3.80
BB: $3.31
UTG: $2.30
MP: $1.95
MP+1: $6.09
CO: $2.74
BTN: $5.20
delwing - Sitting Out

Pre-flop: ($0.03) Hero is SB and dealt
2 folds, MP+1 raises to $0.08, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.07, BB folds

Flop: ($0.18) (2 players)
Hero checks, MP+1 checks

Turn: ($0.18) (2 players)
Hero checks, MP+1 checks

River: ($0.18) (2 players)
Hero checks, MP+1 checks

Final Pot: $0.18

Showdown:
Hero shows (two pair, fours and threes)
MP+1 shows (two pair, fours and threes)
Outcome: MP+1 wins $0.18

 

[WVHillbilly]

Times have changed A LOT since Doyle wrote Super System. It's now a historical document and can teach you VERY little about how to play poker today.

 

[WVHillbilly]

So KQ loses when calling a pre-flop raise, but is marginally profitable for you overall.

KQo yes. KQs is profitable in both situations and KQ is profitable overall.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

Times have changed A LOT since Doyle wrote Super System. It's now a historical document and can teach you VERY little about how to play poker today.

I agree completely, definitely the least useful poker book that I have encountered so far, but I still think that Baudib is being a little harsh when calling somebody a moron or a fish for stating things that are widely held beliefs. Misguided maybe, moronic no. People come here looking for advice, so they are obviously aware that they are not experts and are not claiming to be so.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

Best not to slowplay KQs

Poker Stars - $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em (8 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $4.29
BB: $4.34
UTG: $1.38
UTG+1: $4.83
MP Hero: $2.13
MP+1: $1
CO: $1.20
BTN: $2.90

Pre-flop: ($0.05) Hero is MP and dealt
2 folds, Hero calls $0.02, MP+1 checks, CO folds, BTN calls $0.02, SB calls $0.01, BB checks

Flop: ($0.10) (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP+1 checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($0.10) (5 players)
SB bets $0.08, BB folds, Hero raises to $0.34, 2 folds, SB raises to $0.94, Hero raises to $2 (All-in), SB raises to $3.06, Hero calls $0.11 (All-in), SB returned $0.95

River: ($4.32) (2 players)

Final Pot: $4.32

Showdown:
SB shows (a set of kings)
Hero shows (a full house, fours full of kings)
Outcome: Hero wins $4.11

 

[WVHillbilly]

What's up with the limp preflop?

Also this thread really shouldn't be for beats/brags concerning KQ.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

What's up with the limp preflop?

I thought that somebody had already limped, but I think it was probably the person after me had posted the BB because they couldn't be bothered to wait.

Also this thread really shouldn't be for beats/brags concerning KQ.

Feel free to delete any offending posts. Didn't realise posting rules were quite so tight around here, but whatever, no problem for me.

 

[fugitive67]

all depends on the game and specifically on how many cards you will likely see


it's certainly not a tourney life hand, unless you are truly short stacked ... even then i would prefer a pair or an A

i agree that it is very powerful in limit holdem, but in no limit, it is much trickier

in cash it's pretty good, b/c you are far more likely to see all 5 cards, whereas in no limit, if you just call with it, then you will be facing a continue bet and at certain points in tourneys you don't want to pay to be in that position ... unless you have a good read on your opponent ... it would almost be like if you are gonna play it, then 3 bet pre

 

[baudib1]

Doyle ships AQs for $150K into pot of $14K

 

[Marginal]

You do realize, that comments like the ones below are what very likely put people off making some strategy/in-depth poker posts, right? Now, I know FD is a big boy and can handle his own, but why would you want to belittle instead of make valid counterpoints?






etc., etc.

Juicee I am very disappointed that you pin point mine and Baudibs posts yet fail to see how badly FD also approached it. I am not saying I am right or anything but you do realize what your post just said?

In regards to the hand, the post is like that because

1) he has 3k posts and has been a member for 5 years, so I am not going to approach it like if he is new

2) Baudib provided a decent enough analysis that I did not need to dive further.

Lock the thread.

 

[Makwa]

I very much like the analysis by those who took time to post, from available and personal stats, the numbers speak for themselves. KQs against ranges mentioned above is mostly a good call if not too far OOP (UTG1 etc.).
As for the flames and stuff, well, everybody can't have a good day all the time.
I believe I will play KQs more often...

 

[Four Dogs]

Four Dogs, I don't know what stakes you play, but in micros and low mid-stakes playing hands like QJs and KQs are super profitable. Easy to get away from with too much heat (the passive players will let you know if you're beat) and good enough to rake nice pots when the fish play Kx and Qx.
Also they have the possibility of flopping big draws + power hands etc etc

Those hands are profitable, but not in the face of a pfr. Open with them, 3 bet with them but in general, calling a single raise with any hand is a mistake. Of course there are certain situations where you want to get involved in a hand based on pot odds or implied odds when you know an opponent will stack light, but in general there are no hands other than AA KK or AK where just calling is profitable. Even then your better off raising.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Those hands are profitable, but not in the face of a pfr. Open with them, 3 bet with them but in general, calling a single raise with any hand is a mistake. Of course there are certain situations where you want to get involved in a hand based on pot odds or implied odds when you know an opponent will stack light, but in general there are no hands other than AA KK or AK where just calling is profitable. Even then your better off raising.

This is totally wrong. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

[baudib1]

wow, just wow.

 

[Marginal]

So FD, say we have a fr game, MP+2 raise to 3bb. 100bb effective stacks. He is playing 24/21 over considerable sample. No calls. We are on the button with KQs. What do you do? fold or 3 bet? and why?

 

[Four Dogs]

Juicee I am very disappointed that you pin point mine and Baudibs posts yet fail to see how badly FD also approached it. I am not saying I am right or anything but you do realize what your post just said?

In regards to the hand, the post is like that because

1) he has 3k posts and has been a member for 5 years, so I am not going to approach it like if he is new

2) Baudib provided a decent enough analysis that I did not need to dive further.

Lock the thread.

Actually , I didn't really mind any of the comments. Well, ok, the fish thing bugged me a bit. But honestly, I've had fun with this one. I don't think I've posted this much in years or been this anxious to get home and see what had transpired in my absence. Thanks to Baudib and Marginal for getting me fired up again.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Those hands are profitable, but not in the face of a pfr. Open with them, 3 bet with them but in general, calling a single raise with any hand is a mistake. Of course there are certain situations where you want to get involved in a hand based on pot odds or implied odds when you know an opponent will stack light, but in general there are no hands other than AA KK or AK where just calling is profitable. Even then your better off raising.

WOW so if we got 77 in bb 200+effective stacks villain is 6/5 c-bet 100% turn cbet100% agg inff ...you still like fold or raise.
I know it's a extreme but come on.

 

[WVHillbilly]

When calling a preflop raise I am profitable with all pairs, lots of suited Aces, AJ+, 9Ts+. There is lots of other random hands in there as well but the ones listed are those with more than 100 trials in the scenario described.

I'm so confused by your saying that basically no hand is worth calling an open with that I really don't think you understand what we're discussing. I mean even nits set mine profitably????? Please explain.

 

[Four Dogs]

WOW so if we got 77 in bb 200+effective stacks villain is 6/5 c-bet 100% turn cbet100% agg inff ...you still like fold or raise.
I know it's a extreme but come on.

Don't put words in my mouth. I did say something about barring certain opponent specific situations. But to be honest I'm not much of a set miner either. Getting paid off is a lot harder than most set chasers admit. But I do play med pairs aggressively especially in position. Not because I'm hoping to flop a set but because they're often the best hand post flop.

 

[Four Dogs]

When calling a preflop raise I am profitable with all pairs, lots of suited Aces, AJ+, 9Ts+. There is lots of other random hands in there as well but the ones listed are those with more than 100 trials in the scenario described.

I'm so confused by your saying that basically no hand is worth calling an open with that I really don't think you understand what we're discussing. I mean even nits set mine profitably????? Please explain.

I thought we were discussing calling with KQ. Looks like we've got some mission creep. Ok, I am profitable cold calling with just about any pair. I show an overall profit of .26bb/hand but it's hard to tell whether or not it was from a single raiser which was my point. also, those results are pretty selective as when I do call a raise there's usually more going into the decision than just what two cards I'm holding so the results might be skewed toward the more profitble situations.

I also stated in my first post that I do think it's worthwhile to call with suited aces. I show a profit of .4bb/hand but most of that comes from A8s or better.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Those hands are profitable, but not in the face of a pfr. Open with them, 3 bet with them but in general, calling a single raise with any hand is a mistake. Of course there are certain situations where you want to get involved in a hand based on pot odds or implied odds when you know an opponent will stack light, but in general there are no hands other than AA KK or AK where just calling is profitable. Even then your better off raising.

This is what I was referring to.

 

[tenbob]

FD, the more I read this thread the more I think that you are applying the situation to incorrect senario's.

Most in this thread are talking about calling raise's from MP or later in a cash game 100bb deep (even though they dont really specifiy it). If by chance you are on about tournment play, esp when its pretty shallow, then you are correct calling raises with KQ is spew.

 

[Four Dogs]

FD, the more I read this thread the more I think that you are applying the situation to incorrect senario's.

Most in this thread are talking about calling raise's from MP or later in a cash game 100bb deep (even though they dont really specifiy it). If by chance you are on about tournment play, esp when its pretty shallow, then you are correct calling raises with KQ is spew.

The original poster was referring to tournaments and my original reply was in kind.

But for the most part it applies to cash play as well. Everyone seems to have some situation in mind, a certain type of opponent, certain effective stack sizes, certain limits, etc. I have tried to shy away from that in my responses because "in general" I think calling raises with most hands, including KQ is a net loser. That doesn't mean I don't ever do it, it just means that when I do I expect that I'm entering the hand at a disadvantage and that I'll need something more than just the value of my hand to make a profit. pot odds, opponent tendencies, position, a perceived skill advantage etc. If you just decide that everytime you're dealt KQ you're going to call, just because it's such a swell hand, it will be a loser.

 

[WVHillbilly]

And that's where you're wrong. If I'm faced with a single raise I call with KQs every time. Across all stakes and player types and it's VERY profitable.