KQs is MUCH better than KQ?

[Four Dogs]

And that's where you're wrong. If I'm faced with a single raise I call with KQs every time. Across all stakes and player types and it's VERY profitable.

OK. I have a 39% winrate with KQo and 37% w/KQs when cold calling a pfr in cash games. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.

 

[JOEBOB69]

What is the total # of hands you cold called with
KQo?
KQs?

I'm guessing it's a very low # sense you don't believe it's good to cold call.

 

[baudib1]

39% win rate is pretty good when cold-calling I'd guess. what should be more important is BB/100 won.

 

[Four Dogs]

What is the total # of hands you cold called with
KQo?
KQs?

I'm guessing it's a very low # sense you don't believe it's good to cold call.

Correct. I don't do it alot. KQo 76 KQs 35 this is out of about 153,000 hands.

 

[baudib1]

Bob:

I don't cold-call much in tournaments except when blinds are small early on but I'm not folding KQs very much either. Pretty sure I 3-bet it more than fold. In 2008 I was folding KQ pre as standard but no one (including me) is that tight anymore IMO.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

So FD, say we have a fr game, MP+2 raise to 3bb. 100bb effective stacks. He is playing 24/21 over considerable sample. No calls. We are on the button with KQs. What do you do? fold or 3 bet? and why?

WOW so if we got 77 in bb 200+effective stacks villain is 6/5 c-bet 100% turn cbet100% agg inff ...you still like fold or raise. I know it's a extreme but come on.

FD, the more I read this thread the more I think that you are applying the situation to incorrect senario's.

Most in this thread are talking about calling raise's from MP or later in a cash game 100bb deep (even though they dont really specifiy it). If by chance you are on about tournment play, esp when its pretty shallow, then you are correct calling raises with KQ is spew.

The original poster was referring to tournaments and my original reply was in kind.

I was asking about tournament play, that's why I posted in the tournament section of the forum.

 

[bremensha]

as Dan Harrington wrote in his books cards like KQ, KJ, QJ, are so often dominated.
He is preferring pocket pairs and AQ; AK .

But if you watch great tournaments like wsop the pros wouldn't pass KQs before the flop. They know when to fold afterwards. You can play them without position if you know that too.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

I expect that baudib1 will tell you that Dan Harrington is a complete moron, and will come up with some random YouTube clips to prove it.

 

[Shufflin]

Bob:

I don't cold-call much in tournaments except when blinds are small early on but I'm not folding KQs very much either. Pretty sure I 3-bet it more than fold. In 2008 I was folding KQ pre as standard but no one (including me) is that tight anymore IMO.

So the "common wisdom" of 3-4 years ago is no good now? I'm not challenging this idea, but it's interesting to me, as such a fast-paced adaptive curve makes poker books pretty much irrelevant, no? Or was there a single shift in thinking that propelled us into the current LAG era?

 

[baudib1]

A lot of HOH is dated and M specifically is really flawed.

The most important thing to take out of this thread is that the concept of "dominated" hands is absurd because people's ranges aren't uniform and aren't static. It's probably true that 8 years ago there were more players whose range was like 11/3 so calling with AQ let alone KQ was probably a bad idea when they raised. There's not really anyone who plays like that anymore, mostly because people who play that tight aren't going to have any chips.

In HOH3, Page 203, Harrington takes you through a hand where we are playing against Phil Ivey and call his raise in position with K9s (and we continue on the flop with a gutter + BDFD). He scores your decisions on each street and gives 0 points for folding preflop. "Without question, you can at least call."

Now if Harrington thinks you can call against Phil Ivey with K9s profitably, you can probably call against any donkament player with KQs. If you can't, your best bet is to probably unregister.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

In my mind KQs is reasonably clear cut now, but I still have question marks in my mind about KQ.

 

[Jurn8]

seriously wtf.

stop looking at hands overall and look at them in different spots vs different villians in different positions taking different lines etc and to say KQ isnt profitable is just seriously lol

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

seriously wtf.

stop looking at hands overall and look at them in different spots vs different villians in different positions taking different lines etc

That is one part of the overall picture. At the moment I'm constructing FR starting hand tables, and wanted to hear people's views on why KQ is so much lower rated than KQs. It's not really "wtf" so I'm not sure why you feel the need to make it quite so dramatic.

to say KQ isnt profitable is just seriously lol

I'm not sure where that came from, maybe you've been reading a different thread to me. WVH did say that it's not very profitable for him when calling a raise, but overall it is profitable.

Also this is a tournament thread - do you play tournaments?

 

[Jurn8]

That is one part of the overall picture. At the moment I'm constructing FR starting hand tables, and wanted to hear people's views on why KQ is so much lower rated than KQs. It's not really "wtf" so I'm not sure why you feel the need to make it quite so dramatic.I'm not sure where that came from, maybe you've been reading a different thread to me. WVH did say that it's not very profitable for him when calling a raise, but overall it is profitable.

Also this is a tournament thread - do you play tournaments?

id stop and just play actual poker not off a chart

 

[Aldito]

That is one part of the overall picture. At the moment I'm constructing FR starting hand tables

Do you not understand how this completely goes against Jurn8's post? Each villain/hand/stack size is different and what is a call in one situation is a fold in another. Poker is not a game that can be played off starting hand tables. Doing so will never be profitable and you will never understand how to hand read.

 

[Jurn8]

Do you not understand how this completely goes against Jurn8's post? Each villain/hand/stack size is different and what is a call in one situation is a fold in another. Poker is not a game that can be played off starting hand tables. Doing so will never be profitable and you will never understand how to hand read.

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