Is it Sometimes Correct to Take a Chance in Tournament Poker?

[AvaloNNN]

Lol at this. I would rather say ''this play is idiotic''. I'm pretty sure Greenstein is just being ironic here and he knows he played this bad. That's why he made a joke like this. Lady luck was on his side. He would never play like this in the long run.
Here it is.
Check this video, it's the same episode, a response to your video.

Pay attention to the first 15 seconds, Zigmund said: I played so bad. it's sick'', and Barry added: ''I did too, but i played bad at the right time''.
This tells you all.
Also this is almost the same hand like this one above, so you should see how the real players do it.

 

[Henreiman]

What I don't understand is why you are against flatting here...if you have no serious fold equity and are well aware of that fact, I'd be eager to flat and let others jump in the pot to pay me off when I do hit.

 

[ssbn743]

It's not about how deep we are. We should fold pre because we can easily get raised on by one of the seven players left to act. Once we've made the mistake of calling pre however we can't compound that mistake by raise folding the flop.

We should fold pre. Once we've called we should just flat call the flop.

This obviously makes some sense and I agree the deep comment was just dumb – but this is a weak table in a low buy-in event, the guy with aces tried to raise to $300 with a $200BB; the chances of being raised here are really low.

I chose to raise the flop and I wish I hadn’t. But I did what I did for many of the same reasons, I thought I could isolate UTG and not be raised; obviously that was wrong. Whether my opponent realized it or not, he put me to a decision for all my chips and with only 10% invested and >100B left it’s easy to get away from without consideration to my hand. Once I start doing the math, it gets harder to fold.

Nonetheless, these types of situations are exactly what I’m looking for in the early levels and if I fold pre I can never get there – in this case that would have been better, but I think in the long run these situations work out in my favor. Imagine if he had just flat called the 3-bet on the flop like I thought he would do, BINGO!

I just don’t think I agree with a pre flop fold here, the only reason I can think of is that I know he has a hand and I’m calling with 10 high; I’ll take the hit on that one, but on this table and in this game, I just don’t think I can fold to a novices’ minimum raise UTG.

 

[ssbn743]

Really?

Math is an essential part of poker. Every poker decision is based on math!

So, how do you play if you don't play by the math ? How do you make your decisions? LEt me guess, you play by your gut instinct, lol?

Something told you this old man is a fish with aces and you just decided to go against the math and fold? Even if you were so sure about your instinct, this fold is mathematically incorrect.

The only time you can partially ignore the math is around the bubble or later in the money when you are faced with big pay jumps. Then you should consider some ICM factors as well etc...

Of course I will always play by the math, just like any other good player will do, lol, cause it's the only way to always bring the right decision.

And yes, I played a lot of tournaments and had a lot of success.

Not to mention the rest of your play in this particular hand...several mistakes...

First I’m beginning to wonder if you are actually retarded!

You’re video example is a cash game, not a tournament, and both of those players are 100 times the player you and I will ever be.

The simple fact is that in a poker tournament I cannot reach into my pocket and pull out more tournament chips; this is not a new concept and it’s been in a few books. Tournament poker simply does not allow the luxury of always obeying the rules of math and since I had to explain that to you it is pretty obvious what level poker thinking you are capable of!

I love how you cite my several mistakes but then conveniently do not elaborate on what those mistakes are or in what way I could have avoided them.

There were many mistakes made in this hand, both in the way I played it and my judgment of my opponent and I never said I didn’t make those mistakes. This was a simple question; “No matter how I got here, from this shitty spot, is it ok to gamble?” I know the math, but an auto-call here in early tournament poker is anything but profitable; and I’m assuming you even know what that means!

If math was all this game was about, all I would need is a calculator to win a bracelet. Do me a huge favor and stop wasting my time!

 

[AvaloNNN]

You are ridicilous m8.

Obviously no point in arguing with you. This video is response to another member's post, not yours, lol. Go buy some eyeglasses or something. I just pointed how the hand in this video is similar to yours... Thats's all.

Go play by your instinct and let other normal people play by some rules which you obviously don't know.
Plenty of time for you to learn the game.

GL to you, although the luck isn't what you really need. You obviously need to turn your brain on (if you have one?),start thinking and read some books for beginners since you have a plenty of leaks in your game obviously.

And yes, feel free to ignore my posts, cause I will ignore yours for sure.

 

[S3mper]

Can't we all just get along?

If we all played the same way what fun would poker be? (probably still a lot) but no 1 person plays any 2 cards the same way so no need to kill each other over it =P

 

[kanselau]

This obviously makes some sense and I agree the deep comment was just dumb – but this is a weak table in a low buy-in event, the guy with aces tried to raise to $300 with a $200BB; the chances of being raised here are really low.

I chose to raise the flop and I wish I hadn’t. But I did what I did for many of the same reasons, I thought I could isolate UTG and not be raised; obviously that was wrong. Whether my opponent realized it or not, he put me to a decision for all my chips and with only 10% invested and >100B left it’s easy to get away from without consideration to my hand. Once I start doing the math, it gets harder to fold.

Nonetheless, these types of situations are exactly what I’m looking for in the early levels and if I fold pre I can never get there – in this case that would have been better, but I think in the long run these situations work out in my favor. Imagine if he had just flat called the 3-bet on the flop like I thought he would do, BINGO!

I just don’t think I agree with a pre flop fold here, the only reason I can think of is that I know he has a hand and I’m calling with 10 high; I’ll take the hit on that one, but on this table and in this game, I just don’t think I can fold to a novices’ minimum raise UTG.

if you play all of your suited connectors + your good hands you are playing way too many hands and spewing chips . Play most of your suited connectors in late position , and only very occasionally raise with them in early position to balance your range.

the problem with playing suited connectors in early position is that you have too many people behind you to act , if any of your opponents raise then you should fold because if you call their raise you are paying too much to see the flop.

suited connectors should be played only when the price is cheap.

In this case with a raise from UTG and you being in early position with several opponents to act after you , this is a clear FOLD PRE

 

[ssbn743]

if you play all of your suited connectors + your good hands you are playing way too many hands and spewing chips . Play most of your suited connectors in late position , and only very occasionally raise with them in early position to balance your range.

the problem with playing suited connectors in early position is that you have too many people behind you to act , if any of your opponents raise then you should fold because if you call their raise you are paying too much to see the flop.
suited connectors should be played only when the price is cheap.

In this case with a raise from UTG and you being in early position with several opponents to act after you , this is a clear FOLD PRE

I can agree with this; I do get a little loose at weak tables with low buy-ins. This is mostly because I almost never get raised and if I do my opponent has the best of it and I can easily fold; which is exactly how I get into these types of spots.

I just couldn’t resist myself pre flop here, with the chance to cheaply flop big and crack – but I guess if I was going to play it, I should have played it and re-shoved all-in.

 

[dj11]

First let me give you kudo's for presenting the original post in such a way that I really felt as if I were you at that table.

You mention that the tourney's you play have a lot of weak players. I think that is the mistake you make, I can understand playing the 9Ts, in this case but not the serious challenge and then fold. You are trying to single yourself out as better, and while we all need confidence, overconfidence is worse than under confidence. It blinds us repeatedly. You may be better, I am not questioning your skills, except that holier than thou attitude about the old man who looked like the noob. I'd go with him setting the stage for that perception by some young punk.

No one buys-into a $210 tourney without thinking they have some real perceivable chance. Either they are successful live players or they too play online. They know more about the game than you seem to want to give them credit for.

Put me in the camp that likes the opening cards (better position would make them very nice), but also in with those would would come along rather than push the action.

 

[RoyWeldon]

I like shove .Maybe it s wrong .

 

[sillymunchie]

Tournament poker is all about winning your flips
you can gradually build your stack, but at the end your going to run into flips

do you need to risk it now, not at all, but against his AA, you are a 50 50, this is the perfect coin toss opportunity for you.
It does not matter if its early in an MTT, there are pros that turn around and say, if your going to get knocked out like this then might aswell be early in the MTT

now for your mistakes
You re raised him hoping for a flat behind you, so now lets say he does flat behind you..... BINGO?????
remember theres only 50% chance your hand is going to improve, so only 1 in 4 by the turn
if the turn doesnt improve your hand your now set at hoping to hit on the river or giving up on the turn, this is why flatting is obv the best choice,

Preflop, your UTG+1 so your OOP from the rest of the table, never a good spot to get any value from your opponents if you do hit, this is why we dont play suited cons from early position, then you lay it down when you have the correct odds to shove, it makes no sense to me, if your not comfortable getting it in on that board, then seriously stop playing them cons.

 

[t1tpfdc]

Interesting comments, most all of them!
I may be a sucker for hands like this. Would not have raised the flop. Would like to see a turn as cheap as possible.
But since there was a raise/re-raise, I'd say it's 50-50 more or less ... go with your gut!

 

[ssbn743]

First let me give you kudo's for presenting the original post in such a way that I really felt as if I were you at that table.

You mention that the tourney's you play have a lot of weak players. I think that is the mistake you make, I can understand playing the 9Ts, in this case but not the serious challenge and then fold. You are trying to single yourself out as better, and while we all need confidence, overconfidence is worse than under confidence. It blinds us repeatedly. You may be better, I am not questioning your skills, except that holier than thou attitude about the old man who looked like the noob. I'd go with him setting the stage for that perception by some young punk.

No one buys-into a $210 tourney without thinking they have some real perceivable chance. Either they are successful live players or they too play online. They know more about the game than you seem to want to give them credit for.

Put me in the camp that likes the opening cards (better position would make them very nice), but also in with those would would come along rather than push the action.

I will admit that I can get into that mode where I think everyone is an idiot; specifically older players. I have seen many older players play poker in strange ways, like making the nuts and open shoving thereby causing everyone to fold. In this case though I really wish I had a video camera; trust me this guy was not acting, he had virtually no idea what he was doing. Then again, he did know enough to 4-bet, but only because he had aces. If he had any other hand, he would have played exactly the way I thought he was going to.

But yes, I do get “holier than thou” often actually. However, when I do I am almost always right. First you need to understand that Blackhawk Colorado (where I play) is almost 1 hour outside of Denver. This distance causes some interesting players to show up. People decide all the time to go the Blackhawk on the weekends with no mind to play poker. I see them every weekend talking to the poker podium:

“How much is the noon tournament?”

“It’s $210.”

“Well I don’t want to play for that much.”

And then 30 minutes later there they are at your table. Every day I see people that came to the casino with no intent to play poker; wives standing over their shoulders with clear “can we go yet, posture”, having no idea that this is probably going to take 12 hours. This was one of those cases, though he clearly had some bead on what was going on; by that I mean he understood call, raise, fold, and check but that was about it.

Nonetheless after talking it out with you guys one this site I agree with the pre-flop fold and will certainly consider that the next time this situation crops up. Once I get in there with this hand, this opponent, and this read on said opponent, in any shape or fashion, I think I should have played by re-shoving and re-entered if need be. I really wish I had just flat called his flop bet, but the 5 hands to act after me really screwed things up - which, or course, just highlights why this hand should be folded pre-flop.

 

[Michael Paler]

This is a live $210 buy-in deep stack tournament at my local casino with 30 minute levels and $30K to start. I was a little late and didn’t actually start playing until the end of the 2nd level. The following hand takes place about halfway through level 3.

Blinds are $100/$200/$25 and I had about $29K and everyone was pretty even around the table, $25K to $35K. The player that was UTG already stuck out in my mind for not knowing what he was doing, this was very clearly one of his first live tournaments; maybe his first tournament period. He is an older man, probably close to 60 years old; I say that for no reason other than to help paint the picture.

From UTG he tries to raise to $300, the dealer immediately corrects him and makes him throw out an additional $100 chip; thereby minimum raising from UTG. I was UTG +1 and flat called with

Stop right here; It's not the call here I mind, It's the lack of a plan as what to do post flop with it that will tell you if you want to call that bothers me! You know if you flat call you will be looking at something like...

1) You flop a made flush; if he is a weak player as you thought and has an Ad or Ad,xd, he will probably chase a 4 flush or have you drawing dead. Plus, you are OOP with the rest of the table yet to act! What if one of them had Adxd? So, you will have to just check-call with a weak flush or give it up. This equals a bad flat call preflop

2) Flop a two card flush draw; since everyone flat called like you, your 10 high flush is very vulnerable. So, you will have to just check-call with a weak flush or give it up. Yet even if you plan on just checking/calling any flop bet, with so many other players in behind you, odds are good someone would have re-raised it post flop (button maybe) and he would have done the same thing. This equals a bad flat call preflop

3) Flop a made st8 or a 2 card st8 draw; IF it is the 10-high st8, you are golden. If the st8 draw is to the 10-high st8, you might make it. Just to many potholes unless you catch perfect. This equals a bad flat call preflop

4) Flop the nuts, 10-10-9 or three 10's. Not likely to get action from even this guy. Long shot to begin with. This equals a bad flat call preflop

So, what does all that tell you? Do not flat call UTG+1 10-9 suited with the rest of the table to act behind you? Yep. It's a catch 22. You just put yourself in a horrible position. One of the guys behind you could well have made a set.

So, as crazy as it sounds, you should have (A) re-raised preflop or (B) just folded.

If you min re-raise him preflop with suited connectors you might get it down to heads up. Then you could just call his weak flop bet getting good pot odds with all those outs you had. Is 10-9 suited a good hand to re-raise with UTG+1 preflop? Not to most people, no! Would that have been cheaper? Sure! He might have pulled out the 10k chip after you did, so you would still fold, only losing the original raise you would have made. This is a fancy play. You really want to do that so early against a weak player? No = fold.

While many would have shoved with all those outs, it would have been too big a risk, IMO; It was only a 10-high flush draw. And you knew he had already had an overpair at least. Flat calling preflop was also a mistake. Re-raising preflop was out of the question against this player.

.


This sets off a wave of calls as 5 additional players on the 9 handed table also call. It’s a pretty easy read, in my opinion, and I immediately put UTG on a hand. I had only been playing for a little over 30 minutes but he had only limped and had done so into 80% of the pots with no regard for position; a raise from this player was a clear message and what better hand to have than suited connectors; I like this spot.

Pot - ~$2800

Flop -

Obviously this flop hit my hand well; it could be better but this is a nice flop for my hand. The UTG player then places a single $1,000 chip in the middle and very forcefully says “1 Thousand” as he firmly places the chip down on the felt. I was already suspicious, but I now know this player has Aces, or maybe Kings.

Now I really like this spot, I know exactly what my opponent has and even have position on him. On top of that he doesn’t know what he is doing and will nearly certainly pay me off should my plan work out. The only thing I don’t like are the 5 other hands to act after me; with that in mind I put in a raise to $2500 and every one folds to UTG just as I was hoped would happen.

The UTG player acted like he was going to fold for a solid minute (which further solidified my Aces read), then slid a black $10,000 chip out while saying “raise”, thereby making the bet $11,000.

Now, I didn’t expect that move and that sucks; I was nearly sure that he would flat call.

So let’s run the numbers:

I know I need to improve to win and count 9 flush outs, one 10, and three 9’s for a total of 13 outs – I’m going to assume that my opponent also has the Ace or King of diamonds and further adjust that number to 12. If he does have the diamond that also gives him re-draw outs as well, which I don’t like either. Yet 12 outs on the flop should yield a 40% to 50% chance of improving to the winning hand.

The pot is now over $16K giving me better than 2:1 on a call; however my hand falls right on the edge here. Even with that in mind, I’m not going to call for over 1/3 of my stack; so a re-shove or fold are my only options; I also know that he will call should I shove so I have no fold equity.

Cons

1. It’s early in the tournament and I’m sure I can find a better spot.
2. This player is not good and it’s only a matter of time before I could get his chips anyway.

Pros

1. I’m getting close to the right price; if it’s not right outright.
2. I could double up early.
3. This is a re-entry event, (re-entry, not re-buy).

I folded, like I think the correct play is. In hindsight I wish I would have just smooth called his flop bet, but hindsight is 20/20 and I did what I did for a reason. After I folded he showed as the dealer was pushing him the pot.

Even though I think folding is the correct play; is taking a chance here condoned by tournament poker strategy?

So after all that, how did you end up doing?

 

[anderson1313]

early tournament takes a long time to find a better situation I expect to double

 

[pcgnome]

Yeah...that video was a great memory. To be successful in an MTT tournament you have to be able to come from behind, win by suck outs, bad beats etc... otherwise it was not meant to be.

 

[kukiwarrior]

IMO...If you put him on AA-KK, you should've just call not raise...and try to get the "turn" as cheap as possible, from there you can re-organize your strategy according to his move.

 

[groggy44]

here's my question
holding 9T suited, other than flopping quads, fullhouse, str8flush, what could on the flop that you wanted to do battle with?
I'm shoving this flop because I am favored to win. Otherwise fold.
You put this knit on AA, and other than the super nuts, what do want?
I'm no pro but with those types of hands, don't you want multiway pots?
Playing for you whole stack early on, I'm generally not going to do that.
I don't know, I think you just got into a stick spot.

 

[Macaroon]

Michael Paler has got it just right - you had no plan. How did you expect to win? And if you did think you could win (with a lot of luck), then you want as many people in the hand as possible (as per groggy44).

Dan Harrington would say: 'you played yourself into a difficult position. Folding pre-flop gets rid of all your problems.'

One other thing - as you intimated, you certainly got above yourself. You correctly guessed he had aces but just because you thought he was a poor player you thought you could outplay him! With 9 10! Even poor players are allowed to get good cards you know. And they are allowed to win on occasion. From the other side of the table you could argue that he played much better than you!
Good post, though. And an honest assessment of yourself. The sort of hand we've all played at some time...

 

[ssbn743]

Michael Paler has got it just right - you had no plan. How did you expect to win? And if you did think you could win (with a lot of luck), then you want as many people in the hand as possible (as per groggy44).

Dan Harrington would say: 'you played yourself into a difficult position. Folding pre-flop gets rid of all your problems.'

One other thing - as you intimated, you certainly got above yourself. You correctly guessed he had aces but just because you thought he was a poor player you thought you could outplay him! With 9 10! Even poor players are allowed to get good cards you know. And they are allowed to win on occasion. From the other side of the table you could argue that he played much better than you!

Good post, though. And an honest assessment of yourself. The sort of hand we've all played at some time...

I’m not sure how you figure I didn’t have a plan. I had very rational and well thought out plan; it just didn’t go the way that I thought it would!

But I definitely got carried away and should have just folded pre.

 

[groggy44]

Here's my final thought.
If you know they guy is never folding his AA or KK regardless. Why not just get it in real cheap and just jam when you hit. Why not just check call, check call, and on the river check (jam/fold). Yeah it's a pretty straightforward play but if he's that big of a fish, why bother getting fancy? Call preflop, flat the flop and the turn. That's the great thing about hand reading skills. You know your fish is never laying his hand down so why not just be a cheapo. I know bar poker is so much different than casino poker but i've played in a lot more bar tourneys than live casinos. The one thing I could always count on is these fish never folding their hand when they had AA or KK, regardless. I could play any two against if i really wanted. They weren't folding. I check raised one fish on all 3 streets with a flopped boat Kings full. Conversely, the other fish were never folding their suited connectors preflop. So when I would get AK, AA or KK even QQ and JJ against these fish, I'd just make it 5x-10x. Didn't matter. Regardless how small the pot was, if I still liked my hand on the flop, I stuck a 1/3 of my stack in. There would be occassion where I'd put say $2k chips into a 800chip pot. Blank comes on the turn. Just jam. Sometimes they would call and suck out but I won more than my fair share of cash and prizes from these. In one spot, the bar coupons were so nice, I didn't have to pay for drinks the entire time. I just kept taking down their tournament 2-3 times a week. Finally my favorite was when flopping trip aces or kings, do I check to them. Hell know, no reason to slowplay these fish. They are going to chase their 2pair anyway. They would always say "I didn't put you on AA or KK" I'd always tell'em, of course not silly. What genius would be chasing 2pair against a made set. So, if you are going to play against fish, just start pumping the pot up after you have made your hand. Real fish don't fold.

 

[jamesponce]

You definitely shouldve smooth called his 1000 on the turn. You already know what he has and you know what you need to get to beat him. Raising him when you don't even have a flush or set yet is just asking for trouble especially given his experience as you describe. He actually didn't make a bad raise at all. He made you pay to see your flush and I would've done the same in that situation. NEVER give someone the opportunity to see the turn and the river if you feel they are chasing a flush or straight. You also made the correct lay down. You only lost 2800 in that hand out of 29k! You can easily get that back but you may have been able to capitalize on him only betting 1000 to begin with.

At the same time though if you have the money and the prize money was high enough I say taking the chance would not have been a bad call. Since you can just re-buy and you will be exactly where you were prior to the hand. You had the outs in your favor. Either play was good.

 

[indahood193]

if you put him on Aces then why on earth would you raise with the expectation of him just calling? it was a very wet board, flush draws and straight draws, he probably slightly noticed this but more to the fact if a fish has AA or KK they will get it in no matter what, so he isn't going to just call he is going to raise and try get it in. i think against a better player they might just call, however even then i dunnoo because there's a flush draw on the flop and the most likely hand you are raising the flop with is a flush draw. i think you should just have called, iso raising with such a big draw doesn't make much sense anyway. 1- you might get blown off your hand if he re raises you again and you have <50% equity. 2- against almost any 2 cards you are still not in bad shape so allowing maybe 1 or 2 others to see the turn isn't such a bad thing. it is much worse for the guy with Aces to let them see a turn. as it was a re entry tourny if i felt i was running good i would just go with it at this stage and remember to play it different in the future.

 

[Weissr]

Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here OP. Maybe being more concise or a conclusion to emphasize your points would help... All the best.

 

[99TERRANCE99]

Taking chances is poker but if it feels wrong go with your first instinct more often then not that's the right choice