Can ICM make you fold AAs?

Poker_Mike

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This is a good question.

I think you have to call (or reshove) technically with AA.

Looks to me like your thinking with ICM logic - you are assuming that the short stack that shoved is going to be knocked out. And that may not happen and you have squandered your chance to triple up - even though you will still be short.

Sometimes - it is just your turn to die in a tournament.

I like to play to win.

Good luck !
 
Poker Orifice

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Omg what I typo lol. "defo" FOLD FOLD FOLD haha
yah it's kind of a tough spot. I have a feeling that a lot of the folks responding didn't read the initial post carefully.
 
kon44

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yah it's kind of a tough spot. I have a feeling that a lot of the folks responding didn't read the initial post carefully.
Yer for sure. I almost always misread something when I read posts lol, and that’s before my auto features step in and try to disrupt me further lol. That moment where you stop your auto instinct and consider is golden, just the other day I was playing stats and received AA, JJ, AQ..... sitting there 2nd in chips lol. I had to get up and simply walk away haha,
 
kon44

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@Poker Orifice, loving the avatar upgrade lol. And I got to tell ya, the old one I always looked at and thought to myself "where do I know that face from?" lol 🤣 Finally got my answer when I accidentally stumbling into a front row seat of one of yours and Puzzles jousts haha. Did any other the people you staked bring you any returns?
 
ADRI7HO

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I would certainly not throw away AA in such a situation.
This is the best opportunity to build a big stack on HU and have a good chance of winning the tournament and the biggest prize that comes with it.
 
kon44

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I would certainly not throw away AA in such a situation.
This is the best opportunity to build a big stack on HU and have a good chance of winning the tournament and the biggest prize that comes with it.
You call the shove, he snags the set, the smallest stack gets a straight.... would you be happy you called still?
 
Poker Orifice

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@Poker Orifice, loving the avatar upgrade lol. And I got to tell ya, the old one I always looked at and thought to myself "where do I know that face from?" lol 🤣 Finally got my answer when I accidentally stumbling into a front row seat of one of yours and Puzzles jousts haha. Did any other the people you staked bring you any returns?
Some horses (on Cardschat) have done well for me but the majority have been entertainment. I've enjoyed giving some players a shot at playing something for free.
If you ever feel like staking a CC member for some micro stakes tournaments ($3 to $11), a very trustworthy, hard-working player is ammje (je_otramas).
Super respectful. Very prompt with sending back money &/or calculating profit splits.
 
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Just in a sattalite game when I would get a seat if I fould, never in tournaments
 
Poker_Mike

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I think I call here unless I don't have money for rent otherwise and that $2k jump would be a life changer. One of those spots where the real money implications of the money can make a difference (and why knowing your opponents financial situations is a complete gamechanger!)
Sometimes in live play you can get an idea of your opponent's financial situation. The way they dress.....rolex on the wrist...and even reputation in the live room.

But how do you get this financial assessment in online play? Look at their sharkscope history and see their winrate? If this is the biggest win for them then maybe the player is more risk averse?

Although I suspect that in the OP's situation the 100BB bigstack was going to continue to shove and put his opponents to the test. i.e. is the hand you're holding the one you want to go all in with?
yah it's kind of a tough spot. I have a feeling that a lot of the folks responding didn't read the initial post carefully.
Thank you for pointing this out.

I had to re-read the OP more carefully to see that 3 of the 4 players left at the final table were all in and the OP wakes up with AA with a shortstack and will be all in the next hand involuntarily.

Technically the big stack's opening shove is much much looser than everybody else. I mean it happens that the short stacks double up off the big stack. And then there you are with less than one BB remaining.

With $2k pay jumps each level!

I'm in agony all over again thinking about this hand..ARGGHHHH!! lol

I wonder what actually happened in the real hand.
 
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kon44

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Some horses (on Cardschat) have done well for me but the majority have been entertainment. I've enjoyed giving some players a shot at playing something for free.
If you ever feel like staking a CC member for some micro stakes tournaments ($3 to $11), a very trustworthy, hard-working player is ammje (je_otramas).
Super respectful. Very prompt with sending back money &/or calculating profit splits.
And indeed I intend to, I honestly don’t have the patience of anything other than PKO online. I recently joined PartyP which as far as tournaments go is amazing so for anything over a hundred maybe two I’m over there as it’s deep stack and that’s my realm of play live and it’s carried to their platform excellently. I’ll follow that player you mentioned, I don’t mind investing in others and always have done live.
 
Poker Orifice

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And indeed I intend to, I honestly don’t have the patience of anything other than PKO online. I recently joined PartyP which as far as tournaments go is amazing so for anything over a hundred maybe two I’m over there as it’s deep stack and that’s my realm of play live and it’s carried to their platform excellently. I’ll follow that player you mentioned, I don’t mind investing in others and always have done live.
Do any of partypoker's tournaments start off with more than 100bb's? I believe most of pokerstars are 100bb's but a few that are 150bb's and some with 200bb. I'm not familiar with Partypoker's MTT structures these days.
 
kon44

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Do any of Partypoker's tournaments start off with more than 100bb's? I believe most of Pokerstars are 100bb's but a few that are 150bb's and some with 200bb. I'm not familiar with Partypoker's MTT structures these days.
yes they do, but the attraction for me is the 50 or 100k start stack. It allows for individuals with skill to progress and succeed in deep runs because of the elimination of forced play due to dwindling stacks. You can fold your way through contenders in the dozens if you wanted, late reg with a very tight initial get involved margin. I’ve found them the best tournaments if your a live player anywhere. The thing is with play regarding BB’s it depends how big of a stack the tournaments begin with. Two tournaments both with a 100bb start are ocean apart I feel you consider ones a hyper of 5k chips starting blinds 25/50 and the other is 100k chips starting blinds 50/100. Still far more playability in the 100k even though it starts with the same 100bbs though they are usually 200bb stacks... I’ll have a look in a little when I break in my cash session I began earlier.

And hit that like button stingy lol 😜😅
 
Poker Orifice

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yes they do, but the attraction for me is the 50 or 100k start stack. It allows for individuals with skill to progress and succeed in deep runs because of the elimination of forced play due to dwindling stacks. You can fold your way through contenders in the dozens if you wanted, late reg with a very tight initial get involved margin. I’ve found them the best tournaments if your a live player anywhere. The thing is with play regarding BB’s it depends how big of a stack the tournaments begin with. Two tournaments both with a 100bb start are ocean apart I feel you consider ones a hyper of 5k chips starting blinds 25/50 and the other is 100k chips starting blinds 50/100. Still far more playability in the 100k even though it starts with the same 100bbs though they are usually 200bb stacks... I’ll have a look in a little when I break in my cash session I began earlier.

And hit that like button stingy lol 😜😅
100k 50/100 That'd be 1,000 bb's to start. Are they that deep? Wow!
 
Pokerpoet2

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Playing close to the bubble on a short stack I have on occasions folded Pocket Aces, just to be sure of making the money, but once the bubble has gone I would never fold them, and if you are playing for that kind of prize money, why worry?
It has to be a lot more than your original buy-in so go with it, and keep your fingers crossed.
A Win is a Win! no matter what place you finish!
 
ADRI7HO

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You call the shove, he snags the set, the smallest stack gets a straight.... would you be happy you called still?
I obviously wouldn't be happy about it then, but with AA in my hands, it would be the right decision. If I could see the future, I would of course easily let go of AA, but then basically every card would be like AA for me because I would be able to make the right decision on every street.

The bottom line is, if I see AA and I don't have a time machine, then I call all-in before or after me on a final table, because I want to win, and the two best starting cards for that are AA. :)
 
Goggelheimer

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Well as I understand ICM these shoves and folds are not only momentary (directly in the given situation), they are also a kind of long term decisions. Folding AA in long term is in my opinion -EV. I will go further any pair is strong enough in this situation to push or go all in. ICMize that. I think you'll get a hand range of about 95% of all hands to go in.
 
MK_

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Yes it can make you fold any hand, not too sure I'd be happy about it in this situation since it assumes at least one of the others bust... and then I'm the shorty😳👎
 
StealTheButton

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Depending on other players holdings- you are going to be prolly like a 67% to 75% favorite to win here, and you just cannot fold that kind of equity at any stack depth. I would never let myself get down to 0.65 big blinds. Only way that would happen if I was on the unlucky side of an all in confrontation. But remember, if you are the shorty with less than 1big blind, then everyone is going to be playing to that you will just be blinded out in a hand or two.

But if the short stack wins it will be pretty much impossible to place higher than 4th. If you triple up here, and have another couple double ups, then you could be a contender to place a lot higher. I have several times come back from say 1 big blind in 3 or 4th position to win a tournament.
 
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Throwing away a top range on the bubble, just for the sake of hitting the minimum payout is a losing strategy in the long run.
 
rock0001

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no , unless its a satellite i wouldnt fold aces even in an icm scenario because its the strongest preflop hand and your odds will always be in your favor.( unless 4 or more players shove preflop which is almost impossible in this situation)
 
vitas_top

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With a small stack, I would never throw away AA. But with an average to above average stack, I can throw away AA. I have a successful experience when, in a $5 tournament with 1,000 participants, I dropped AA at the final table after 5 players in front of me played all-in. If I hadn't dropped AA, I would be out of the tournament in this hand. As a result, I won this tournament and received $1000 in prize money.
 
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I only fold AA when I have a sure ticket to a tournament and there is absolute no reason to risk
 
Gallarado777

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no, I would never discard AA, it would be better to double or lose, but I don't even know who to discard such a card better than the last one I think
 
antonis32123

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Fold AA ? Preflop ? Not sth that I could do easily . But in a sat , close to ITM , nowadays I try to be more carefull , conservative, I want to be able to fold hands , stay away from trouble . Many play very carefully close to the bubble , waiting for bigger stacks suckers to lose and get out if the tourney
 
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