Dirty Tactic or Fair Play?

B

blix177

Visionary
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Total posts
516
So I was at the final table and at the same time I was multi tabling. I was in no rush to go anywhere. So instead of playing my hands normally I just slow roll every hand with all my timer.

By the time we went down to 3 player, 1 of them I know was in a rush to go. He had 30BB, vs me 40BB and a small stack 8BB, and he was just shove or fold, with a shove or reshove rate of 70%. Since he was in a rush and I was not I just milked the timer to the max each hand to slow the game down.

From my perspective I have no reason to speed up the game, I am already playing in 2 other tournaments.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,280
Awards
1
If someone is a rush to go, they should not be playing MTTs, so this is their own problem. With that being said I do think, it is bad etiquette to slow down action at the final table. Unlike when multible tables are running, their is no ICM advantage to this, so you are basically just wasting peoples time for no reason other than being a jerk. Of course if you are busy with hands at other tables, it is fair enough to use the timer. But not every hand with the main purpose of slowing the game down.
 
B

blix177

Visionary
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Total posts
516
If someone is a rush to go, they should not be playing MTTs, so this is their own problem. With that being said I do think, it is bad etiquette to slow down action at the final table. Unlike when multible tables are running, their is no ICM advantage to this, so you are basically just wasting peoples time for no reason other than being a jerk. Of course if you are busy with hands at other tables, it is fair enough to use the timer. But not every hand with the main purpose of slowing the game down.

But how about slowing down the game to reduce the blind size? I find myself much better to play from under 25BB. Above 25BB, there is a lot more turn and river moves that you need to account for. I am honestly pretty bad at knowing when to fold the turn and river. So making everyone have less effective stack would be an advantage to me.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,280
Awards
1
But how about slowing down the game to reduce the blind size? I find myself much better to play from under 25BB. Above 25BB, there is a lot more turn and river moves that you need to account for. I am honestly pretty bad at knowing when to fold the turn and river. So making everyone have less effective stack would be an advantage to me.

This is a fair point, which I actually thought about after posting my reply. As long as you have another purpose than just annoying people to possibly induce tilt, I would not consider it bad etiquette. My main point is, that our goal should be, that people hate us, because we are tough to play against, not because of our table demenior. We should not aim at being the next Phil Helmuth, Tony G or William Kassouf, even though it is sometimes quite funny to watch these guys be way out of line on TV :D
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,280
Awards
1
Of course in the long run the better solution is to work on improving your turn and river play, so that deeper stacks are actually an advantage rather than the opposite :)
 
B

BIGAUS

Rock Star
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Total posts
494
Viewing it as potentially a way to take advantage of the situation you recognize is one way to look at it. Sure, at times you were intentionally doing that but on the flip side, you also needed more time than usual to make decisions on your final table since you were multi-tabling. Ultimately it's up to the individual on if they are "morally OK" with stalling as a purpose of potentially gaining an advantage.
 
theANMATOR

theANMATOR

Legend
Joined
Jan 29, 2019
Total posts
1,250
Awards
1
So I was at the final table and at the same time I was multi tabling. I was in no rush to go anywhere. So instead of playing my hands normally I just slow roll every hand with all my timer.

By the time we went down to 3 player, 1 of them I know was in a rush to go. He had 30BB, vs me 40BB and a small stack 8BB, and he was just shove or fold, with a shove or reshove rate of 70%. Since he was in a rush and I was not I just milked the timer to the max each hand to slow the game down.

From my perspective I have no reason to speed up the game, I am already playing in 2 other tournaments.

I see nothing wrong with slowing down the game because it is within your personal player 'right' to play at the speed you want to play at. Milking the timer is your own prerogative and if someone gets upset about it - that is their own issue they need to work on.

As far as making an excuse for it - regardless if you are playing multiple tables or just one - you have every right to play your own way.

I often will milk my timer nearing the end of late registration. I find it an effective tool to counter the aggro players who shove lite late in events attempting to double up. They face less hands which results in less opportunity for them.

I do think players over tank when short nearing money bubbles in live event - which in my opinion is bad etiquette, but taking a 'whole' 15 seconds on FT online is quite reasonable, not in any way bad form. We are making split decision judgements, compared to live players who take anywhere from 2 to 10+ minutes to make the same decision.
 
Last edited:
K

kkami

Rock Star
Joined
Jul 11, 2020
Total posts
199
You are playing for money, you should take any advantage.
I think it was smart, not dirty.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,280
Awards
1
I see nothing wrong with slowing down the game because it is within your personal player 'right' to play at the speed you want to play at. Milking the timer is your own prerogative and if someone gets upset about it - that is their own issue they need to work on.

To some extend I agree. I do however think, that stalling tend to be bad for the game. Let us say, that a recreational player makes his first final table appearance. Then he experience, that another player takes the maximum time to react every single hand, even if its just to fold preflop. And for him their is probably no sensible reason for this.

I think, the recreational player will find it annoying, because he at last made it to that final table, and he wants to play! He dont just want to sit and watch someone run their timer just to fold, while blinds relentlessly goes up. And if he gets sufficiently annoyed, it might be the drop in the bucket, which pursuades him to not play an MTT again.

So I think, you should at least be really sure, you are actually gaining a real edge by doing this. Otherwise I would just go with the flow and allow the game to play, which is, what the vast majority of players want.
 
elizeuof

elizeuof

Visionary
Joined
May 26, 2015
Total posts
656
Awards
1
Well, we can talk about a lot of things related to this, there are no consensus, I prefer to play more fast, but sometimes we need to slow the game, and we are in our rights. When some player are playing so many times going allin, and I can't play my best game, I will use more time to think about the game and trace another strategy.

Another example of this style of game we can see close to the ITM, where players slow the game trying to reach the bubble, It's different, but also are a way to spend you bank time.

If it was prohibited to take time to decisions, why we have a bank time?
 
ADRI7HO

ADRI7HO

On the road...
Loyaler
Joined
May 6, 2020
Total posts
4,103
Awards
2
I see nothing wrong with slowing down the game because it is within your personal player 'right' to play at the speed you want to play at. Milking the timer is your own prerogative and if someone gets upset about it - that is their own issue they need to work on.

As far as making an excuse for it - regardless if you are playing multiple tables or just one - you have every right to play your own way.

I often will milk my timer nearing the end of late registration. I find it an effective tool to counter the aggro players who shove lite late in events attempting to double up. They face less hands which results in less opportunity for them.

I do think players over tank when short nearing money bubbles in live event - which in my opinion is bad etiquette, but taking a 'whole' 15 seconds on FT online is quite reasonable, not in any way bad form. We are making split decision judgements, compared to live players who take anywhere from 2 to 10+ minutes to make the same decision.

I totally agree with what you said.
That's practically exactly what I think.

If someone slows down the game, feel free to do so as long as the thinking time (varies by poker room) or timebank allows it.
You do nothing but take advantage of the opportunity.
That's it. :cool:

Have a nice day. :)
 
M

MickGreed

Rock Star
Joined
Aug 22, 2018
Total posts
165
I think its my time to think or play for dif. reasons, If its wrong they would make it turbo, instead of normal play an that gives you less time to play in.
 
D

DancingNancie

Rock Star
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Total posts
182
I would consider this no different than stalling on the bubble. It may be annoying, but it isn't against the rules or unethical.
 
Psyanide14

Psyanide14

Legend
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Total posts
1,072
You have the time to do with as you will. I’ll sometimes use the timer if we’re close to the money and I’m short and just had the bb hoping to knock others out and get the blinds up. Other times I play fast hoping to see more hands if I got an average stack.

A lot of people multi table as well so they will always be a bit slower.
 
Psyanide14

Psyanide14

Legend
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Total posts
1,072
I see nothing wrong with slowing down the game because it is within your personal player 'right' to play at the speed you want to play at. Milking the timer is your own prerogative and if someone gets upset about it - that is their own issue they need to work on.

As far as making an excuse for it - regardless if you are playing multiple tables or just one - you have every right to play your own way.

I often will milk my timer nearing the end of late registration. I find it an effective tool to counter the aggro players who shove lite late in events attempting to double up. They face less hands which results in less opportunity for them.

I do think players over tank when short nearing money bubbles in live event - which in my opinion is bad etiquette, but taking a 'whole' 15 seconds on FT online is quite reasonable, not in any way bad form. We are making split decision judgements, compared to live players who take anywhere from 2 to 10+ minutes to make the same decision.

This last part isn’t true for some live tournaments now where they use the 30 second timer to speed thing up. Yes they have time chips but that similar to your online time bank. I like the 30 second timer being used and think it should become more common in large MTT.
 
Zorba

Zorba

27
Joined
Jul 21, 2007
Total posts
40,755
Awards
14
AU
The clock is there for everyone to do with as they please, there is nothing immoral about it, who cares what anyone else thinks.

I think you did the right thing, the blinds will eat the short stack up and the guy that's in a hurry will be playing a lot more marginal hands than normal.

:top:
 
Tracid

Tracid

Squirrel Tiger
Community Guide
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
6,336
Awards
6
Stalling tactics... :rolleyes:

Pretty painful for everyone trapped at a table with you and I find it a fairly marginal argument that any edge whatsoever can be derived from it.

Time is precious.

Gets a yikes from me.

No long term benefit as a strategy and just horrible for the game, I'd recommend anyone who chooses this as a winning game plan to go back to the drawing board.

The best way to deploy any kind of stalling would be to purely tilt a susceptible opponent, like the one you described as 'in a rush'.

That would be an infrequent occurrence, not a default strategy.
 
Roobz75

Roobz75

Rock Star
Joined
Apr 13, 2020
Total posts
299
Stalling tactics... :rolleyes:

Pretty painful for everyone trapped at a table with you and I find it a fairly marginal argument that any edge whatsoever can be derived from it.

Time is precious.

Gets a yikes from me.

No long term benefit as a strategy and just horrible for the game, I'd recommend anyone who chooses this as a winning game plan to go back to the drawing board.

The best way to deploy any kind of stalling would be to purely tilt a susceptible opponent, like the one you described as 'in a rush'.

That would be an infrequent occurrence, not a default strategy.



Probably agree overall with this comment. Poker is a game of luck. End of the day played either very well or very badly...:cool::cool::cool:
 
IntenseHeat

IntenseHeat

Legend
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Total posts
1,058
I'm kind of torn on this one. As far as timebank usage goes, I am probably the complete opposite of blix. I have never been in the habit of stalling. I always want to see more hands. Even though it might irritate the heck out of me and may be bad poker etiquette, it's obviously not against any rule. And if I'm being honest, I can see how it puts enormous pressure on the short stacks as the clock ticks towards the next blind level. Still, I don't want to be that guy that makes the game unbearable for the whole table because I think that there may be some benefit to having everyone be pissed at me. This seems like some of that bull crud that people do online, but wouldn't pull in a live game, except for Jordan Cristos. Look him up. Trust me, you don't want to be that guy.
 
theANMATOR

theANMATOR

Legend
Joined
Jan 29, 2019
Total posts
1,250
Awards
1
To some extend I agree. I do however think, that stalling tend to be bad for the game. Let us say, that a recreational player makes his first final table appearance. Then he experience, that another player takes the maximum time to react every single hand, even if its just to fold preflop. And for him their is probably no sensible reason for this.

I think, the recreational player will find it annoying, because he at last made it to that final table, and he wants to play! He dont just want to sit and watch someone run their timer just to fold, while blinds relentlessly goes up. And if he gets sufficiently annoyed, it might be the drop in the bucket, which pursuades him to not play an MTT again.

So I think, you should at least be really sure, you are actually gaining a real edge by doing this. Otherwise I would just go with the flow and allow the game to play, which is, what the vast majority of players want.

I see your point of view, but I never really thought anyone would alter their play based on what someone else thought of that 'type' of play. Seems opposite of a winning strategy, though if a concern is butts in seats - I can see why someone would try not to make anyone else feel uncomfortable.

And the main point of my post - was to point out we are literally taking 15 seconds on a decision. 15 seconds - ya know is a tiny amount of time - compared to live events - other than the 30 second shot clock events mentioned by other post.

fundiver you write eloquent, in-depth, knowledgeable, and thoughtful responses to a lot of posts. The amount of information in those posts - can not possibly be considered in 10 seconds or less. So to me - 12-15 total seconds to make one decision is quite fast, and acceptable. Consider villians ranges, tendencies, position in event, duration of event, type of player, stack sizes, players left to act, balanced play, conserving or attacking etc etc. A lot to consider in the allotted time. 12 seconds is not tanking/milking, it's reasonable.

I also play quite fast as others have said, except nearing the end of late reg., but I don't think taking 12-15 whole seconds to make a decision is unreasonable.

This last part isn’t true for some live tournaments now where they use the 30 second timer to speed thing up. Yes they have time chips but that similar to your online time bank. I like the 30 second timer being used and think it should become more common in large MTT.
Yes - I totally forgot about those events. I agree - I also like the 30 second time limit imposed in live play. It makes for much more enjoyable viewing. (I have not played live yet).
 
C

Csharp123

Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 25, 2020
Total posts
48
Dirty or fair

I find slowing down the game can work in your favour in many situations eg, when your short stacked and the button has passed you and your near the bubble.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,280
Awards
1
I also play quite fast as others have said, except nearing the end of late reg., but I don't think taking 12-15 whole seconds to make a decision is unreasonable.


Taking 12-15 seconds to make a decision is not stalling. Stalling is, when you are not yet involved in the action, and you know, you are not going to play, but yet you still use the maximum time for folding. Like for instance you have J3 offsuit in HJ.

In this situation I typically preselect "fold", so my action is instant, when its my turn. This not only speed up action but also allow me to concentrate about those tables, where I am actually going to play a hand.
 
Alekxandrovi3

Alekxandrovi3

Rock Star
Joined
Sep 24, 2019
Total posts
361
This is a dirty game. I don't know why you were waiting. If it was more comfortable for you to play this is the right game. You plays for cash. If he was in a hurry, it wasn't your problem, it was his problem. As they say in the Italian mafia Nothing personal, just business.
 
Last edited:
Branimir84

Branimir84

Rock Star
Joined
Sep 23, 2019
Total posts
470
Awards
1
HR
No rules are broken, nothing dirty here. From the etiquette point of view people will debate it either which way. I think your actions were within your right but I would not do the same.

Honestly, I just feel bad for that third player :D
 
B

bellicoso

Visionary
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Total posts
549
So I was at the final table and at the same time I was multi tabling. I was in no rush to go anywhere. So instead of playing my hands normally I just slow roll every hand with all my timer.

By the time we went down to 3 player, 1 of them I know was in a rush to go. He had 30BB, vs me 40BB and a small stack 8BB, and he was just shove or fold, with a shove or reshove rate of 70%. Since he was in a rush and I was not I just milked the timer to the max each hand to slow the game down.

From my perspective I have no reason to speed up the game, I am already playing in 2 other tournaments.

This is just stupid. Why would you do this to the other players? It's poor table etiquette.
 
Top