Dealer asked money after tourney

[MemphisGrind]

LMFAO, all workers should have a living wage paid for by their employer, ESPECIALLY in a multi billion $ profit industry that can afford to pay their workers a decent wage, and give their stockholders a little less. What is so difficult to understand?

:bandit:

Let's try this another way So if the casinos were to raise their compensation, they would in turn have to raise the rake. The casinos will only have a poker room if they are making what they determine to be an acceptable amount of profit. So raising their cost by paying dealers more, will require that they raise the rake to balance that cost.

Does anyone here want to pay more rake?

Plus, if the dealer does not have the incentive to earn tips, what level of service do you think you will be provided. Sure, they can still be replaced if they really suck, but they can still do the minimum effort required to keep their boss from having to go through the pain of having to terminate and replace them.

Do you want to pay for a lesser experience?

I would prefer to have a lower rake and tip dealers who run a game efficiently than paying a higher rake without any incentive for the dealers to be better at their trade. The tip is an incentive for the dealer to go beyond their specified job duty to provide a clean, well run game for YOU, the player. This in turn will provide a more profitable game if you are skilled enough to take advantage of it. It is in the player's best interest to have a dealer want to provide you with the best game possible in order to earn your tips.

I am not saying you have to tip every dealer. Some flat out don't deserve it. But I think it is proper and expected to tip dealers who provide you with a quick, clean and efficient playing experience. I do tip for this very reason.

And this is why I am offended by players who do not tip. You are essentially free loading on the investment (tips) that everyone else is putting into having a well run game

 

[Andrei Korolev]

I think the personal desire of everyone to give or not to give...

 

[Rolco]

...how can you not tip a dealer? He/she is not responsible for your loses and should be rewarded accordingly. 5% is not unusual.

Because them throwing cards and chips around the table has nothing to do with your own risked funds and performance.

 

[MemphisGrind]

Because them throwing cards and chips around the table has nothing to do with your own risked funds and performance.

This is not why you should tip... you are tipping for the service not for the reward.

 

[audacity]

Just remind them that those human like advanced Japanese robot dealers don't ask for tips.

 

[MemphisGrind]

Just remind them that those human like advanced Japanese robot dealers don't ask for tips.

This is fine too. When that technology is available and in all casinos. We will no longer have to worry about it tipping won't be an issue anymore, but until then you are dealing with human beings that have families.

 

[Lena M]

Hello.
I play poker for 5 months, so I play only freerolls. This will allow me to get a good experience for free. But in the long run, I plan to start playing tournaments worth up to $ 1.

 

[underdog140]

First off your entire paycheck does not go to taxes... If it did and someone came in and said thanks for your service here is 2-5 dollars hope it helps, would you keep working there? probably not.

Not all the dealers in the world get shafted by their employee taking advantage of paying them peanuts because the law allows it. It's the employers responsibility to pay their workers. I didn't hire that dealer in the casino or that waitress in the restaurant I ate at last week. I am not responsible for the wage they get from their employer. I also don't get to decide if they deem if that wage is worthy of their time or not.


As for your question on if I would work somewhere where my salary all goes to taxes the answer is no. If for some reason someone decides their answer is yes then that is on them to determine not me.

I guess you would be fine if from now on every casino was just pass the deal and every eating establishment was self service?

Yes I would be fine with that. I have no problem walking up to the kitchen and picking up my food that was cooked by the chief nor do I have a problem with dealing. I should preface this by saying I rarely visit a casino. But in this self dealing casino I would expect to pay less rake since I am helping the casino with their over-head cost. I would also expect to pay less for my food in this self-serving restaurant.

I agree on your example for food. in a perfect world you should not tip more for the same service being done. but it's not a perfect world and there is nothing wrong with tipping a percentage based on the bill.

I never said anything was wrong with percent based tipping. If that is what you want to do then all means go ahead and do that. It's your money and you can do with it as you please.

I said percentage based tipping is flawed. 15 % is standard and anything less your a cheap ass is the normal argument. I disagree with the practice because someone shouldn't be rewarded more " extra " money just because a person ordered an expensive meal instead of a standard priced one that involves the same effort to make.

but a dealer is what we are talking about and they get paid per hand. Every time someone slows the game down that cuts into the hourly rate for a dealer and should get tipped accordingly. A dealer is there to make the game run smooth and is a service to the players just like a waiter and waitress is a service to the customer. If you were happy with your service you should have standard % amount you tip

No, we were talking about Dealers and Waiters and both industries as you asked me if I worked in either.

The dealer is an employee of the Casino. I did not hire him or her. I am a customer of the casino who pays rake to the Casino for the Casinos services. One of these services is having a live dealer at any table games I wish to play. If I want to pay extra ( tips ) for this service then that is for me to decide. It is not a mandatory action to tip and it shouldn't be looked down on when not done. What should be looked down on is an industry / employers who don't pay fair wages.

A casino is also an attraction that is built to take your money. Part of that attraction is using live dealers to entice you to play in their tables games. .. Poker , Craps , Black Jack ect. I am not responsible for paying for the casinos attractions that are designed for me to loose my money to them.

for me in cash games it's 3% in food establishment it's 20% no matter what. If I was happy with the way the dealer or waitress did their job it goes up and it's based on the size of the pot or the size of the bill for dealing because larger pots generally take longer amounts of time it even less flawed than waiters and waitresses.

That's great and I am sure the dealers and food establishment workers thank you for your tips. That doesn't mean your way is the cookie cutter way of tipping. Waiters for example bring food. If I bring a date and rack up a $100 bill and spend an hour in the restaurant your trying to tell me that I should tip $20. So this waiter would get their hourly wage + $20 + tips from the other tables she attended to during that hour. She would be making more an hour then most get that have took a trade or went to collage for. Percentage tipping is extremely flawed.

All in all you can do what you want, it's your money and your life. It's easy to take people and what they do for granted, all I am saying is think about what these people do for you.

Not tipping does not equal taking people for granted. The employer not paying their employees a correct wage is what can be called taking people for granted.

- All that being said I usually always leave a tip. As pointed out already even a $5 tip to an establishment I been in for less then an hour is leaving someone make an extra $5 an hour at least for that hour I was in there and who here wouldn't want an extra $5 an hour added to their salary.

 

[Becky Eubanks]

I have never tipped in a tournament but I did win a $6000 badbeat and I tipped the dealer $600 !

 

[fordman427]

I have seen many pros say they don’t tip because it takes off of their ROI. I don’t always tip playing a tournament, but I always try to give a little while playing a cash game

 

[lqprimetime]

I'M GOING TO SAY THIS, WITH MAYBE SOME BLIND HATE BACK IF YOU DON'T READ IT ALL.
But disclaimer, I am not saying I am against it, and I am not saying people don't do it. They should, and I do.
Tipping the dealer is a pretty garbage industry standard. They make well above minimum wage unlike waitresses/waiters and commission based employees (jobs that legally pay below min wage because tips ARE a factor)
To a 24 year old living cheap a base dealer job is probably ok depending where you live. But many dealer jobs offer at least in the "teens" per hour. Which is more than any customer service rep, or the lady behind the DMV counter, and definitely more than someone at McDonalds much less a real waitress.
To ask for a tip is ridiculous, it should be a courtesy based off a player's feel good moment that you happened to be there for but didn't cause. Which basically is to say tipping is like superstition. *I can't think, in any tipping potential job I have worked, or that I have used, no one ever asks for a tip, pizza, uber, at most you may get that delayed wait then a thank you. Unless this is the 1980s at the Ritz and Tim Curry is your bellboy. I know someone will get THAT pizza delivery driver that asks one time, but it is human social skills to know not to ask, and maybe even NOT get one just for asking.
I know dealer's aren't paid like truck drivers or anything above average for not having a College degree, and many may be purposefully under paid if it is understood that casino get's a lot of tips and is to be included in pay. But that is the job of the casino and the person applying for the job to know what the potential is.

But let's face it, dealing is not hard or manual labor, it can be tedious work to some, but also you are sitting down inside like many office workers, and are often times provided with some entertainment with the customers and interaction to make the time fly or more enjoyable. Even if you aren't talking you are observing "that guy is pissed he got drawn out on".

But the whole notion the dealer did anything to provide you better service, or better cards, or EARNED a tip in any way is ridiculous. WAIT.... unless its like blackjack or one of those tables where you just have a funny dealer or talk a lot like a bar tender.

They aren't serving you the cards any faster, or making your hands fresher with Aces.
The tip is based off tradition and superstition.

That said, still tip the dealer, especially if you have made a lot of money... and/or if you have made some money, and the dealer has to put up with player abuse/bad table manners because of it. But even then you shouldn't be the one having to pay for someone else's behavior. That is on the dealer to quit dealing for that type of clientele, or the casino.
Even with this, that is you being nice, so this doesn't even qualify for a dealer asking for a tip.

Some food for thought i actually had yesterday before even reading this coincidentally. I was watching an old High Stakes Poker, or even think of Bobby's Room... it made me wonder if those dealer's had earned that place to deal, because even the smallest denomination of chips there is like $100-$500 to be thrown for at a dealer for a couple hours. Caught myself wondering if Poker After Dark/High Stakes Poker used TV paid dealers, or if the casino provided the show with a legit employee who was used to that sort of thing.

 

[pokersextreme]

Could be superstition but some dealers give you great cards and when they switch you get nothing so it basically comes down to your way of thinking and if i win a tournament it'll be pretty standard to tip him/her...so live and let live!

 

[underdog140]

I'M GOING TO SAY THIS, WITH MAYBE SOME BLIND HATE .......

Not every place in the world allows employers to underpay waiters / waitresses / dealers ect. For example in canada the min wage differs per Province but the min wage is the min wage and doesn't change to factor in tips. Your employer is still required to pay the min to their employees and any tips you get is " extra " on top of your wage.

 

[8bod8]

A dealer asking for a tip is bad practice.
Often their salary is low, expecting tips from the winner.
The winner should take the above into account.
I would be 'not happy' with a dealer asking for tips.

 

[Rolco]

This is not why you should tip... you are tipping for the service not for the reward.

Do you know what dealers/waiters have happen in countries where there is no tipping? They are paid appropriately by their employers.

 

[MemphisGrind]

Do you know what dealers/waiters have happen in countries where there is no tipping? They are paid appropriately by their employers.

I'm not in another country I am in America and here we tip. If you play in another country where they are paid properly then don't tip.

 

[MemphisGrind]

Do you know what dealers/waiters have happen in countries where there is no tipping? They are paid appropriately by their employers.

I don't understand why people need to take their issues with the corporations out on the dealers and waiters and waitresses. They don't like it either that their pay sucks, but you think it's fair to them to make your point by shafting them. If you really cared you would protest against the establishment not the employees.

 

[underdog140]

I don't understand why people need to take their issues with the corporations out on the dealers and waiters and waitresses. They don't like it either that their pay sucks, but you think it's fair to them to make your point by shafting them. If you really cared you would protest against the establishment not the employees.

Not tipping isn't protesting against the employee. Not tipping the culture standard isn't protesting against the employee either. Not tipping is not shafting them either. People are brain washed ( customers and employees ) into thinking its the tippers / non tippers fault the waiter isn't making a living. Blame the government for the stupid law that allows employees to pay peanuts to these service people. Blame the employer for taking advantage of such a law but under no circumstance is its the customers fault or responsibility.

 

[Rolco]

Not tipping isn't protesting against the employee. Not tipping the culture standard isn't protesting against the employee either. Not tipping is not shafting them either. People are brain washed ( customers and employees ) into thinking its the tippers / non tippers fault the waiter isn't making a living. Blame the government for the stupid law that allows employees to pay peanuts to these service people. Blame the employer for taking advantage of such a law but under no circumstance is its the customers fault or responsibility.

Amen

 

[MemphisGrind]

Not tipping isn't protesting against the employee. Not tipping the culture standard isn't protesting against the employee either. Not tipping is not shafting them either. People are brain washed ( customers and employees ) into thinking its the tippers / non tippers fault the waiter isn't making a living. Blame the government for the stupid law that allows employees to pay peanuts to these service people. Blame the employer for taking advantage of such a law but under no circumstance is its the customers fault or responsibility.

Per your quote............. "Blame the government for the stupid law that allows employees to pay peanuts to these service people. Blame the employer for taking advantage of such a law but under no circumstance is its the customers fault or responsibility" again I say. DON'T PUNISH THE EMPLOYEE BY NOT TIPPING WHEN IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT. I personally have done my part to try and fix this by constantly talking to the correct outlets in my area to fix the crappy situation going on with corporations but the fact of the matter is it's not changing at least not in the near future.You said numerous times how it is the fault of the employer, but by not tipping you are not taking a stance against the employer all you are doing is hurting the individual that has no control over what they get paid. You keep saying it's not my responsibility. Well guess what it's not your responsibility to clean up trash on the side of the road when you see it, or to help someone who's care broke down on side of the road, but if you are any sort of a decent human being you will. Not tipping an individual who relies on tips to make a livable wage is atrocious.

 

[underdog140]

Per your quote............. "Blame the government for the stupid law that allows employees to pay peanuts to these service people. Blame the employer for taking advantage of such a law but under no circumstance is its the customers fault or responsibility" again I say. DON'T PUNISH THE EMPLOYEE BY NOT TIPPING WHEN IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT. I personally have done my part to try and fix this by constantly talking to the correct outlets in my area to fix the crappy situation going on with corporations but the fact of the matter is it's not changing at least not in the near future.You said numerous times how it is the fault of the employer, but by not tipping you are not taking a stance against the employer all you are doing is hurting the individual that has no control over what they get paid. You keep saying it's not my responsibility. Well guess what it's not your responsibility to clean up trash on the side of the road when you see it, or to help someone who's care broke down on side of the road, but if you are any sort of a decent human being you will. Not tipping an individual who relies on tips to make a livable wage is atrocious.

Non tippers are not punishing the workers that is a ludicrous thing to say. Not tipping is more a stance against the tipping culture in general and the employer then it is against the employee. The only time not tipping or tipping poorly is a stance against the employee is when you purposely not tip because of the service.

No tipping from anyone would mean the employer would be forced to pay a decent wage to their workers because if they didn't they wouldn't have any. Restaurant owners / Casino's are not just going to change their stance if the current tipping culture isn't changed. .

I am not arguing the moral aspect of tipping ( morals are subjective ) but saying not tipping is something that is atrocious is a large over-statement. Again as I said numerous times ... I do tip.

So I\m not a decent human if I don't pick up garbage on the side of the road ? Not stopping for a car that is broke down .... not tipping ... these are some large leaps apart on the moral scale of deciding what to do in each case.

 

[MemphisGrind]

Non tippers are not punishing the workers that is a ludicrous thing to say. Not tipping is more a stance against the tipping culture in general and the employer then it is against the employee. The only time not tipping or tipping poorly is a stance against the employee is when you purposely not tip because of the service.

No tipping from anyone would mean the employer would be forced to pay a decent wage to their workers because if they didn't they wouldn't have any. Restaurant owners / Casino's are not just going to change their stance if the current tipping culture isn't changed. .

I am not arguing the moral aspect of tipping ( morals are subjective ) but saying not tipping is something that is atrocious is a large over-statement. Again as I said numerous times ... I do tip.

So I\m not a decent human if I don't pick up garbage on the side of the road ? Not stopping for a car that is broke down .... not tipping ... these are some large leaps apart on the moral scale of deciding what to do in each case.

"Non tippers are not punishing the workers that is a ludicrous thing to say." No it is not a ludicrous thing to say, if no one tips they make 5.00 an hour. If that isn't punishment then i don't know what is...

"Not tipping is more a stance against the tipping culture in general and the employer then it is against the employee."
You are not going to fix the tipping culture by not tipping, it is a long process that needs to be fought without impacting the dealer and or food service. There are other ways to go about this as I outlined earlier such as writing to the government talking to local politicians not tipping isn't going to fix this.


"The only time not tipping or tipping poorly is a stance against the employee is when you purposely not tip because of the service."
this is terrible as well there is never an acceptable time to not tip even if poor service.

"No tipping from anyone would mean the employer would be forced to pay a decent wage to their workers because if they didn't they wouldn't have any. Restaurant owners / Casino's are not just going to change their stance if the current tipping culture isn't changed.
You are repeating yourself, as I stated before this is not correct, this is not how you are going to change the tipping culture by not tipping. again there are other ways of going about this where you are not impacting the ones providing the service.

"I am not arguing the moral aspect of tipping ( morals are subjective ) but saying not tipping is something that is atrocious is a large over-statement. Again as I said numerous times ... I do tip."
I am not trying to make a large over-statement I am giving my opinion. That is good that you tip, but you have also said that you only tip 2-5 dollars regardless of bill amount and effort by the server.

So I\m not a decent human if I don't pick up garbage on the side of the road ? Not stopping for a car that is broke down .... not tipping ... these are some large leaps apart on the moral scale of deciding what to do in each case.
I feel that actions speak louder than words. Those were two distinct examples that popped into my head. To answer your specific question of by not picking up trash or stopping for broke down cars does it or does it not make you a decent human I would answer both yes and no. It's not the exact actions of picking up trash or stopping. Those examples were used to help support a greater idea. If you don't understand the greater idea then maybe that answers the question.

If you understand the point of a tip then giving an accurate tip wouldn't bother you. You would actually feel good about your tip. You are looking at it from the viewpoint of if I keep with this tipping culture nothing will ever change from the corporation standpoint instead of looking at it from the POV of the ones serving and dealing. As I have stated multiple times there are ways to combat the corporations to fix the tipping culture, but trying to get everyone to just gradually stop tipping is not the way to go about it.

 

[lqprimetime]

Not every place in the world allows employers to underpay waiters / waitresses / dealers ect. For example in Canada the min wage differs per Province but the min wage is the min wage and doesn't change to factor in tips. Your employer is still required to pay the min to their employees and any tips you get is " extra " on top of your wage.

That is true, this was said with the U.S. in the forefront of my mind. And some jobs here in the U.S. also offer min wage + tips or commission, just depends on the job.

However I am not sure what the point of this reply is, other than to just inform me, and well said you are right. But this may just reinforce the whole not tipping the dealers thing, or perhaps waitresses in your country, if they get min wage + tips.
Or perhaps Canada's society has adapted and the tip % standard is much lower?

 

[lqprimetime]

"

.

-notice i deleted a lot of this quote because there isn't a point, I would have to quote every post Memphis made.

TLDR (and don't bother reading if you don't want a lesson and want to continue debating)

1. Dealers are NOT comparable to waitresses/delivery drivers/commissioned employees
   1. Dealers make not just a wage, but a GOOD base wage with out tips, more than other crappier jobs. Waitress/commission sales make below min wage or $0/hr because tips are implied
   2. Dealers can not provide "better or faster service" like a delivery driver or waitress. However i make the point, in rare situational cases they can if they are fun and happy to teach/correct you if you are new etc. But correcting/giving instruction, is there job, but they can be like a robot and not friendly. It is their job and in the casino's interest they keep the table flowing and making the house money.
   3. Dealers do not make your cards fresher, or your hands better, like delivering food or anything.
2. Tipping Dealers stems from superstition or karma, or tradition, not from the service they provide.
   1. A case can be made for rich people who know they are tossing around thousands, and the Dealer is "helping" them(facilitating) do that. But that is what the dealer is paid for, so this would be a TIP in an act of Charity. A rich person tossing a poorer person something out of kindness, and basically because they were around at the time.

I made first post, which should have almost ended the discussion and anyone's argument. But that wasn't so.
I am not going belittle your opinion of tipping Memphis, and attack you like others, because as I said in the post TIP YOUR DEALER, and you seem to be of the opinion of tipping the dealer.

BUT since i post LONG POSTS and they don't get read.
Memphis you mentioned what dealers make and asked others if they knew.
I said what they make in the post. The wage is a decent living with out the tips. Even in like 2003 you could be a dealer for $15/hr. I mentioned "teens" because i didn't want anyone to split hairs and come back at me with exact amounts per region.
BUT.... 2003 $15/hr was a wage to look for in Las Vegas. YOU DO HAVE TO LEARN TO BE A DEALER THOUGH (but this is not college or hard).

So yes they make a decent wage for a cool, in door, non-manual labor, no college degree required job. (this was in 2003 remember) While gas stations, shift leaders at Walmart/Fast Food and jobs of that nature pay $10-$15 WITH OUT tips. And those jobs are much crappier with less prestige.

*******THE POINT IS*******
DEALER'S DO NOT DESERVE TIPS....... but i said... tip them when you can it is like karma
-they not only make a minimum wage unlike waitresses and other commission/tip based jobs, but they make MORE than min wage before the tips.

Memphis's argument about Waitresses is ABSOLUTELY correct, the tip IS their "min wage" it is their pay... So you should tip them, maybe more for a great job, less for a bad job, but tip because that is their pay... (NOW watch Resevoir Dogs opening scene and see if you agree with that, because that tipping argument is valid but varies restaurant to resteraunt. In that diner and many small diners Waitresses do make min wage + tips, but REAL restaurants they don't)

HOWEVER, again, this does not apply to dealers, at least not in the US. Their base salary is already a normal wage, and to my point, it actually is above normal, and a good wage. So the tip IS a gratuity, not their base pay.

If the dealer does something extra to deserve it, like they are friendly with you, maybe you are new and require a lot of help on how to play and they are constantly telling you what the rules are as you play..... TIP THE DEALER....
Or maybe they are funny... or you feel bad for the abuse they had received at the table from customers... TIP THE DEALER

BUT TIPPING IS JUST TRADITION... AND SUPERSTITION MAYBE FOR KARMA
When you have a good time, usually winning, you toss something to them for karma.
DEALER'S DO NOT **DESERVE** TIPS mathematically, economically, anything.
Their job can do nothing to provide you better service to earn a tip*, AND, their wage does not warrant the automatic tip like waiters and waitresses, not even close.

*to nip this in the bud before it starts, the "job can do nothing to provide you better service" some dealers maybe slower or faster or bumble cards accidentally flipping or not count well....you don't tip because the cards were deal efficiently and chips moved quickly, that is their job, and all dealers are trained and should perform this way like clones. They need to be as machine like as can be. YOU DON'T TIP FOR THIS, the casino expects this and will fire them if they aren't doing a smooth job, OR you can move tables and complain if a dealer is too slow or dropping cards.

My only merit that may qualify "philosophically" if you want to label it something, was when i said, a DEALER may go BEYOND what is required by catering to your newness/answering all questions/correcting your mistakes in betting, WHICH IS THEIR JOB AND ALL WILL... but.... maybe this dealer was very friendly and happy to do it, and not answering you like a robot. TIP QUALIFIED, provided something extra.

 

[MemphisGrind]

Notice I deleted a lot of this quote because the information Is incorrect. The average wage for dealers before tips is $6.85. Once you figure this out you will change your tune. I can prove it. You are just spitting numbers out. Good day.