Glaucopone
Rock Star
Silver Level
More work for you...laughs
Hi Katie
Thanks for your great tip, I'm already using sharkscope but as a beginner I don't understand well about the acronyms ITM and PTLB.
I also don't know what the use would be because of whether the person finished early, in a medium time, mid-late and late.
I'm going to search Google, here in brazil I still haven't found in Portuguese an explanation about the use of these numbers above that I mentioned. If you have an article that explains in detail, you can send the link in English.
Thank you and sorry for the work.
Have a great Easter :ciao:
Hi Glaucopone, I hope I understand your question correctly, please let me know if I’m getting it wrong with my apologies
I like your idea of being able to divide up players in an sng based on skill level to dollar value within an sng. Practically speaking though, it will be tough to know every player’s ROI within a game.
For some poker sites, you can search users through websites like SharkScope in order to get an idea of the ROI and common buyin sizes of your opponents. Generally, I prefer to make player notes on my opponents based on what I see at the tables; for example if someone is a good reg that will become apparent rather quickly and I’ll give them a red note. On sites where HUDs are available, the winning players will generally be identified even faster.
Hope this helps and good luck!
Hi Katie
Thanks for your great tip, I'm already using sharkscope but as a beginner I don't understand well about the acronyms ITM and PTLB.
I also don't know what the use would be because of whether the person finished early, in a medium time, mid-late and late.
I'm going to search Google, here in brazil I still haven't found in Portuguese an explanation about the use of these numbers above that I mentioned. If you have an article that explains in detail, you can send the link in English.
Thank you and sorry for the work.
Have a great Easter :ciao:
jirasuonna
Visionary
Silver Level
ITM is "In the Money" it is when you start winning money in the tournament. ITM% is how often they make it to ITM.
I am guessing that if they have a low ROI, but a high ITM%, then they are probably afraid of not making it into the money. You can probably intimidate them before the money bubble bursts.
PTLB is pokerstars Tournament Leaderboard Points earned. (for this one, I added the statistic to the Sharkscope toolbar and then put my mouse cursor over it.
This might help for other things. I know abbreviations are a nightmare in another language.
https://www.twoplustwo.com/acronyms.php
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Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
In the words of Phil Hellmuth, "If it weren't for luck I'd win them all!"
I know what you mean though and that's a good point. I know it might not seem all that great to make around $0.10/game, but believe me that's a great accomplishment at $0.50. If you want to make more an hour, you can start playing more tables and/or higher stakes. (Just do one of those changes at a time.)
A good ROI depends a lot on buy-in for 9-man. At $0.50, 20% is great. At $15, 5% is very good.
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
Greetings in Brazil! Great questions, here are my answers:
1. Regular or turbo. I would generally make the same decisions in either speed, with the occasional exception being to shove or call slightly wider in a turbo.
2. If the effective stack (the shorter of the two stacks) heads-up is 10bb or less, I would play almost only shove-fold. Between 10bb - 15bb, shove/fold is still good or you can take other strategies if you like such as limping or min-raising the button. Over 15bb and you shouldn't be playing shove/fold as much usually.
3. Generally that style is no longer effective except in the softest games. It's fine to start that way, but I recommend working to improve post-flop and also stealing blinds aggressively to get to the bubble with a bigger stack
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
Nice question!
The biggest difference is that in a cash game, you should seize every edge and play just to win chips. It's similar for the early stages of a multi-table tournament. In the later stages of an MTT, or during SNGs, you need to focus on ICM instead. This means that your survival is very important -- you need to be tighter calling off your stack, for example.
Here is a more specific example. Let's say that with four players left, here are the stacks:
Cutoff: 5bb
Button: 5bb
Small Blind: 50bb
Big Blind (Hero): 30bb
The cutoff and button fold. The small blind shoves and you have AK. In a cash game, this would be an easy call because you have just one opponent and your hand is very strong. In an SNG or MTT, you would have to fold because the pay-jumps are too important and you need the short stacks to bust first.
This type of example above ^^ is at the heart of the difference between cash and tournament formats.
B
Bilgefisher
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I just wanted to thank you two for replying to everyone in this thread. It has resulted in the sale of at least one book. I do have a question about the book though. The title says single table SnG tournaments. I like playing the on demand SnG that tend to have 30-80 players.
Does your book apply to these games?
I do have a question about the book though. The title says single table SnG tournaments. I like playing the on demand SnG that tend to have 30-80 players. Does your book apply to these games?
Katie Dozier
Poker Expert
Silver Level
D
DoIHaveAFlush
Rock Star
Bronze Level
Hi Collin,
Thank you very much for this clear and concise explanation, it's much clearer now for me
By the way, what can you suggest for poker beginners to progress and improve faster their poker skills? How did you learn, what was your strategy?
Cheers
Katie Dozier
Poker Expert
Silver Level
Unfortunately bad beats are a huge part of playing poker, but the flip side of that coin (pun intended
) is that it is an aspect that hits everyone equally in the long run. Furthermore, the game wouldn't be nearly as popular of a pastime without the element of luck involved. Before long, Collin and my course for tournament poker will be released right here on CardsChat and I hope it will prove to be helpful to you!
Katie Dozier
Poker Expert
Silver Level
Hi Katie/Colin,
hope you are both well at this difficult time.
I have a question for Katie as it is about shoving and I know this is your favorite subject[emoji3]
This situation happened to me in an MTT, but I think it's the same for large SNG too.
I was ss with about 8bb and the chip leader was sat at my left with about 130bb
So I thought, no way I am shoving to steal his blinds, where can I shove that he is least likely to call me? Answer is UTG of course. So this was my strategy:
When UTG: Shove 72o+
in B/SB: Shove QQ+
Three rounds this worked for. Nobody wanted to call my UTG shove. The 4th round I got AQs UTG, shoved again, got called and doubled up.[emoji481]
This was on the bubble btw, I was about 100th of 107 with 91 paid when this started , finished 35th.
So I looked at some shove ranges for 11-9bb and noticed its about 50% for B, 15% for UTG. Wow, this seems way too much of a difference to me.
So what is my question then? I'd like to know if shoving from UTG could be an exploit as everyone thinks I have a 15%, where in reality I have trash.:hahaha:
Hi Bigredwolf! A million apologies for my delay! I have no idea how I initially missed this great question but am glad I at least saw it when I double checked the last few pages of this thread today [emoji4]
That’s an interesting question you’ve posed and you’re right that shove spots are my favorite questions [emoji3]
At a table of thinking players, you’re totally correct that people will assume you’re shoving a lot tighter UTG, but they will quickly catch on to the fact that you are very likely shoving too wide by around the 3rd shove. As you point out, the % you can shove in equilibrium is radically higher from the button—because you have so many more people you need to get through from under the gun. I agree that you will get credit for having a stronger hand initially from shoving UTG, and that’s why it’s particularly important not to miss shoving the bottom of our range there.
However, players would have to be making a tremendous number of too-tight folds there in order to make shoving junk UTG profitable. (If you have hold em resources calculator or a different software, try playing around with tightening others’ calling ranges to see this more concretely.)
Personally I wouldn’t adjust my default shoving ranges solely from the info of shoving into a big stack and being around 15 from the money as a short stack. Getting to the stone bubble may take some time yet, and most players call shoves in the big blind from the small blind way too tightly. So even if he’s widening his calling range because he has so many chips, he’s probably still calling tighter than someone playing perfectly. Additionally I wouldn’t require much edge at all here to be happy with shoving. For all those reasons I think it’s very important to shove as wide as Nash dictates and I wouldn’t tighten up due to the approaching bubble until we become more of a mid stack instead of a short stack (or when we’re on the stone bubble).
I hope this helps and sorry again for my delay! [emoji4]
jirasuonna
Visionary
Silver Level
Thanks! Now I will not to freak out when my ROI drops as I move up.
Although, it will be upsetting to know that the casino will be making more money than me off my games. I guess this is why rakeback is important.
B
Bird173
Rock Star
Silver Level
So $15 dollar game a good ROI is $0.75? That’s terrible news really. So if your very good at this and play 100 games a day you could make $75 a day. Is that even worth it? How does it takes to play 100 9-mans? Even if I play turbos I don’t think I’d get though that many in day. I mean I could but not while playing well. I think I could four table maximum and play two 6hour sessions a day I bet I make it through 60 tops. So now I’m curious let’s see how sngs I can crush in one day
jirasuonna
Visionary
Silver Level
I think I read earlier in the thread that these guys are playing 40 at a time. I have to say that seems insane to me. I can barely handle 3. Everything goes in the toilet at 4.
Even at 3 games, if you keep cycling new games in without breaks you can get through a lot. To win a turbo 9 man, it takes at most an hour, but often closer to 30 min. About half of them you will probably bust out before 15 min. I think 100 a day would be easy if you were monstrously strong. For me, my brain would turn into mush way before that.
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
Hi Collin,
Thank you very much for this clear and concise explanation, it's much clearer now for me
By the way, what can you suggest for poker beginners to progress and improve faster their poker skills? How did you learn, what was your strategy?
Cheers
Great, glad that helped!
I learned by playing a lot, and coming up with ideas and trying things. But my main strategy early on was just playing very tight. It worked then but (usually) doesn't now. Times change unfortunately! But good poker is always a game of adapting to the times
In terms of resources I suggest for learning -- Katie and I are working on a very cool project for CardsChat. I can't say more at the moment, but there will be a lot more on this soon and I'm very excited about it.
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
I just wanted to thank you two for replying to everyone in this thread. It has resulted in the sale of at least one book.
Does your book apply to these games?
Really appreciate that Bilge!
Yes the book definitely works to learn the fundamentals of SNGs with multiple tables in terms of equity, ICM and important concepts. But all the examples come from 9-man so I would definitely suggest studying your favorite format more specifically too!
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
I think we've answered all the recent questions, but if we've missed any then sorry about that and please post again. We'll be happy to reply!
About ROIs by the way, yes $0.75/game in $15s is good these days. It's difficult to make a living in low-stakes SNGs without putting in a lot of volume -- and 40-tabling would be impossible on most sites now. With that said, they're still very good for learning, building up, and making good side money in the process
About ROIs by the way, yes $0.75/game in $15s is good these days. It's difficult to make a living in low-stakes SNGs without putting in a lot of volume -- and 40-tabling would be impossible on most sites now. With that said, they're still very good for learning, building up, and making good side money in the process
N
noswal1026
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Sit & Go Strategy
Hi Guys,
I recently re-read Collin’s great SnG Strategy book while currently stuck at home, I purchased it years ago when I played a lot of small stakes SnGs.
I also just joined Cardschat and watched a few of the short videos on SnGs and in one of them, jamming a 20bb stack as a resteal was advocated. This isn’t mentioned anywhere in the book, in fact I think the advice in the book is generally against this with a stack of decent BB/M......can you please clarify for me?
The SnGs on Stars now have antes from the get go so I’m wondering if this has a bearing? Also, surely reads / HUD stats must be a big consideration when considering jamming a stack upwards of 15BB?
I look forward to receiving your reply.
Many thanks.
Gary
Hi Guys,
I recently re-read Collin’s great SnG Strategy book while currently stuck at home, I purchased it years ago when I played a lot of small stakes SnGs.
I also just joined Cardschat and watched a few of the short videos on SnGs and in one of them, jamming a 20bb stack as a resteal was advocated. This isn’t mentioned anywhere in the book, in fact I think the advice in the book is generally against this with a stack of decent BB/M......can you please clarify for me?
The SnGs on Stars now have antes from the get go so I’m wondering if this has a bearing? Also, surely reads / HUD stats must be a big consideration when considering jamming a stack upwards of 15BB?
I look forward to receiving your reply.
Many thanks.
Gary
D
DoIHaveAFlush
Rock Star
Bronze Level
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
Consider each situation on its own. If you've folded a lot, don't be more or less inclined to fold the next hand as a result (except insofar as it affects your image).
With 83o, you're usually folding no matter what unless you think you have a profitable any-two-cards shove. With 97o, you'll often be correct to shove it in from at least the small blind if everyone folds to you.
Most of all, stay patient! Going card-dead isn't fun but don't worry, it happens to everyone and your job is just to navigate it as well as you can.
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
Thanks for the nice words Gary!
Yes, a stack of 20bb is great for resteals. The book has good fundamental information but a lot of the specific examples are out-dated in today's games. We're excited that we have a lot of content for today's games that should be announced soon by CardsChat
Reads and HUD stats definitely have an impact, as do antes. Antes force you to play looser and more aggressively as do looser HUD stats from your opponents. If you have any specific hands/spots you'd like us to look at feel free to post those as well.
Thanks and hope that helps!
jirasuonna
Visionary
Silver Level
Short Stacked Push/Fold with a Limper
This is assuming effective stacks of 13 BB no ante or 15 BB 10% ante.
How do you adjust push/fold ranges when someone limps into the pot ahead of you?
It is hard to tell if it is weak or a trap.
Do you treat it as an all-in?
Similarly how do you adjust if you are in the BB and someone limps or the SB completes?
If you would shove against an all-in, that is pretty easy.
I suspect that if you just check you are giving away hand information unless you are checking strong hands also, but then you are probably leaving money on the table and possibly getting crushed when the opponent flops two pair or a set.
What if you have multiple limpers?
Thanks in advance!
This is assuming effective stacks of 13 BB no ante or 15 BB 10% ante.
How do you adjust push/fold ranges when someone limps into the pot ahead of you?
It is hard to tell if it is weak or a trap.
Do you treat it as an all-in?
Similarly how do you adjust if you are in the BB and someone limps or the SB completes?
If you would shove against an all-in, that is pretty easy.
I suspect that if you just check you are giving away hand information unless you are checking strong hands also, but then you are probably leaving money on the table and possibly getting crushed when the opponent flops two pair or a set.
What if you have multiple limpers?
Thanks in advance!
Katie Dozier
Poker Expert
Silver Level
These are good questions that all fall into more gray area type adjustments to shoving ranges. Here’s how I approach them:
-Shoving over limp(s): the vast majority of limps are not traps. It is another person (or people in the case of multiple limps) to get through, but on the other hand, they’ve increased the amount in the pot. Generally I tighten my shoving range slightly, though if the player that limps is limping a lot then I don’t tighten unless they’re a total calling station.
-Shoving in the big blind over a complete in the small blind: Versus unknowns this tends to exhibit a dramatic amount of weakness. I like shoving very wide there—oftentimes as wide as I would’ve shoved had I been in the small blind myself there. Versus regs, I would exercise more caution as well as balance my range (checking some strong hands) as you alluded to in your questions.
Hope you have a nice week at the tables!
Luvart
Legend
Platinum Level
For Collin and Katie:
a)Well, I remember myself when I first started getting familiarized with online poker (and poker in general), back in 2012, to only play Sit and Go's (play money) in the beginning and then nanostakes single-table SnGs, before enetually switching to micro cash (and then to CardsChat marvellous freerolls of course!). I even played PLO SnGs.....lol. Do you think that the classic single-table 6max or 9max SnGs have value today and be a profitable grinding option for a nano-micro stakes player?
b)If we have a "Fundamental Concept" for single-table SnG's, what is this: playing conservative poker trying to survive and get into the money, or the classic MTT approach trying to build a big stack to make the very top positions where the big money is?
Thank you.
a)Well, I remember myself when I first started getting familiarized with online poker (and poker in general), back in 2012, to only play Sit and Go's (play money) in the beginning and then nanostakes single-table SnGs, before enetually switching to micro cash (and then to CardsChat marvellous freerolls of course!). I even played PLO SnGs.....lol. Do you think that the classic single-table 6max or 9max SnGs have value today and be a profitable grinding option for a nano-micro stakes player?
b)If we have a "Fundamental Concept" for single-table SnG's, what is this: playing conservative poker trying to survive and get into the money, or the classic MTT approach trying to build a big stack to make the very top positions where the big money is?
Thank you.
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