# Add on when to take and not to take

T

##### Rock Star
i usually take the add on if most of my opponents are. but sometimes this is less than 10bb

is there a min number of bbs that is strategically correct in taking the add on.

is there a calculation similar to icm that determines if taking the add on is correct.

any thoughts on add on would be appreciated

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#### BIGAUS

##### Rock Star
To me it all depends on the tournament structure, how many chips you get in relation to the stack sizes at that time, and how much it would help me to add-on. Also I do some quick math before that time and if getting the add-on means that I'm most likely to just get ITM and would break me close to even or not much of a profit, then it doesn't make sense to do. A lot of factors to consider and it varies tournament by tournament.

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#### fundiver199

##### Legend
Loyaler
The main thing with an add-on is, that the chips are cheaper than the original chips. For that reason taking the add-on will almost always be +EV, and its usually a pretty big mistake to not do it. Even so you regularly see lots of people not taking the add-on. Right now I am playing a 3,3\$ R+A on 888 Poker, which just went through the add-on break. 40 players made it that far, but out of those 40 only 26 purchased the add-on, which was 3.000 chips, whereas the starting stack or a rebuy was only 1.500 chips.

The 14 people not adding on made the value of each chip in the tournament around 6% larger than it would have been, if everyone had purchased the add-on. This mean, that the 26 people adding on gained on average a 6% edge just by someone missing out on the opportunity. That has to be the easiest edge found anywhere in poker.

In this particular case it was even worse, because the tournament ended up with a 10% overlay, and even with everyone adding on it would still not have exceeded its 500\$ guaranty. For that reason the people not adding on increased the value of each chip with a whopping 16%. A huge blunder by them and money right down the pocket of the other 26 people, who added on

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#### Stickyfish

##### Rising Star
i usually take the add on if most of my opponents are. but sometimes this is less than 10bb

is there a min number of bbs that is strategically correct in taking the add on.

is there a calculation similar to icm that determines if taking the add on is correct.

any thoughts on add on would be appreciated
I personally don't like add-on tournaments and I would suggest you stop playing Add On tournaments.

#### ObbleeXY

##### Visionary

I personally don't like add-on tournaments and I would suggest you stop playing Add On tournaments.

Hi Stickyfish,
Welcome to CardsChat.
Glad to see you getting involved, but I just wanted to give you some guidance.
The reply you've provided is a single sentence. On its own, it has little value here on Cards Chat.

If you were to provide an explanation of why you don't like them...MAYBE it would have been. But one-liners are not really appreciated here. If you want access to freerolls like the rest of us, you need to put in the effort like threst of us.

So why is it that you personally don't like them?
How do you propose to avoid such games, given that so many MTT's have them?
What games have no add-on that you would recommend as an option?
Why would these be a realistic option?

You've got to remember that poker isn't a day at the fun-fair. You cannot simply try each game once and expect to have decent or repeatable results. For most money-making players, they have had to find the game which they excel at and have an advantage over the rest of the pack that is exploitable. But as each game plays slightly differently, you need solid strategies for each -- and that is too much work for most people.

In my opinion, I will play the games that I have an advantage in whether they contain an add-on or not. On the one hand, I don't like them because it is like paying double for the same tournament, without having to lose first to do so. And given the value of the chips bought through add-on, it seems foolish not to add-on in most circumstances.

For example, if you have 40 people left in a tourney when the add-on hits, you will typically see at least 75% of players get the add-on. Whilst it provides no great advantage if everyone does it, apart from seeing an extra hand or two or three, not doing so provides a clear disadvantage.

I consider this akin to people who play cash games and do not buy-in for the maximum amount. You're just creating a more difficult path to success for yourself, whereas if you take the add-on, you are either equal or better to your previous position.

There are exceptions here of course:
If very few people are taking the add-on, you can possibly get away without it...but here is where the biggest advantage is, so why not?
If the add-on does not give much better chip purchase value than normal entry, then I might consider avoiding it.

But Because it seems almost like an all or nothing thing, this makes me question why add-ons are even a thing. The answer is, it is a TAX. It is an opportunity for the house to inject more cash into a game. It parades around like some sort of helping hand to the short stacks...and to an extent it is, but it kind of pisses me off to be doing well in a tourney only to have someone start late, play poorly and then get another chance to win, devaluing solid play.

To me, it is sneaky. If your bankroll supports \$1.10 games, but there is an add-on...it's really a \$2.20 game. Does your bankroll suppor that? No. You cannot arbitrarily double your buy-in and pretend that it sits within your bankroll boundaries.

Finally, the other thing I dislike about the add-on is that in many games, you have late reg, followed by an ongoing rebuy-period which extends for far too long, and then is folloowed by an add-on. So you often see people doing rebuy after rebuy, shoving junk hand after junk hand until the add-on is reached. Meanwhile your table has been flooded with chips, getting split beteween the fish who will eventually hit out of sheer chance.

So if I am going to play a tight, disciplined game (with exploitative tendencies), I'd rather play a knockout as it rewards that type of play more than LAGgy play. However, if I'm feeling a little fishy myself, then a low-cost, rebuy game is considered.

I also prefer rebuys more than re-entries...since a rebuy gives you a chance to win your money back off the people who took it, and similarly, if you have someone giving chips away and rebuying, you want them to stay at your table. So re-entries don't really server anyone's interests except the house.

Cheers,
ObbleeXY

#### nuttea

##### Visionary
i usually take the add on if most of my opponents are. but sometimes this is less than 10bb

is there a min number of bbs that is strategically correct in taking the add on.

is there a calculation similar to icm that determines if taking the add on is correct.

any thoughts on add on would be appreciated
Here, the opinions of the pros do not agree on all points. Renowned poker professional and author David Sklansky recommends taking an addon in poker if your stack is below average. Many experienced poker players always recommend buying. Of course, if the stack is small, and the increase does not make it competitive, you should refuse. Some players buy in addition even when they are the chip leader. In most cases, this is unjustified, since it does not give a commensurate increase in the advantage over rivals. According to the ICM model, the larger the player's stack, the less each of his chips is worth in monetary terms. Therefore, mathematically, he is forced to acquire them at a worse rate than opponents from the middle of the chip account.

#### garibe

##### Rock Star

The ones I played, it felt like the other colleague pointed out: Just another way to get more buy-ins during the game from the short stacked players.

It is very compelling to buy the add-on after hours of play just to see yourself short-stacked near the bubble... And, you will see players doing it thinking that that little extra chips will give some advantage. The problem is: By the time the Add-on is available, many other players are already big stacked and will continue to put pressure on your game.

So, unless in a situation where the player has a mid-size stack and is in need of "extra" advantage on the others that are still very short, I would not take the Add-on.

Of course, during these games I played, I noticed players who did re-buy and add-on and were able to get to the final table. In the end, it is up to the player to know what is +EV to their strategy. I mean, I can get to the final stages re-buying and getting Add-ons but at what price?

Well, my take on this is that if you can stand these games without the add-on just go for it.

If you need the Add-on, remember if it will be profitable (what are the blinds, how many players still in the game, avg stacks, etc,.)

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#### zerosalex

##### Visionary
I always take the add on no matter what.

R

#### RDHartsoe

##### Rock Star
I will usually do the add-on if the minimum cash is more than my total buy-in.

F

#### fundiver199

##### Legend
Loyaler
I feel, a lot of respondents dont really get the point to be honest. Poker is at its core a math based game, and we can use the Independent Chip Model (ICM) to estimate the monetary value of our stack. And in all but the most rare and extreme instances, purchasing the add-on chips will increase our ICM value more than the cost of the add-on.

The added value will be less, if we are among the chip leaders and more, if we are a short stack. But it will almost always be positive, so if we are playing for profit, this is not a complicated decision. Say the original buyin was 2,2\$, and we have built a huge stack. The ICM value of that stack might be 14\$, and for 2,2\$ we can increase that to 16,7\$. This wont make a huge difference for our chances to win the tournament or reach the final table, but we will still make more money in the long run, so we should purchase the add-on chips.

Some poker sites like 888 Poker let you set the client to automatically purchase add-on chips at any given opportunity. And just like serious cash game players should use the auto top-up feature, so they always start the hand with at least 100BB, this is an option, serious tournament players should enable, so they dont accidentally miss out on an opportunity to add-on.

T

##### Rock Star
I personally don't like add-on tournaments and I would suggest you stop playing Add On tournaments.
i need to add a couple of things that should have been in the original op.

these tournaments are on intertops where a lot of the tourneys have add ons. I am playing there because of i have freeroll winnings im trying to run up.

the add on is not raked. intertops need the rebuys and add ons to make the quarantees

##### Visionary
i usually take the add on if most of my opponents are. but sometimes this is less than 10bb

is there a min number of bbs that is strategically correct in taking the add on.

is there a calculation similar to icm that determines if taking the add on is correct.

any thoughts on add on would be appreciated

I don't like to play ads ons tournaments, but when I do, I just dont buy it when I'm with a very very large stack.

#### micalupagoo

##### Legend
I don’t understand people who play a rebuy/add on game and dont. It is a huge edge and should be taken advantage of

T

##### Rock Star
Thank you

I just reread this thread. I would like to thank those who posted. For the most part i got the type of in depth analysis I was looking for. I learned a great deal. Im glad smarter and better players than I are willing to share their knowledge

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#### Recreationalplayer

##### Rock Star
If my stack size is more than average, then I add on or else I don't.

#### nuttea

##### Visionary
i usually take the add on if most of my opponents are. but sometimes this is less than 10bb

is there a min number of bbs that is strategically correct in taking the add on.

is there a calculation similar to icm that determines if taking the add on is correct.

any thoughts on add on would be appreciated
Always take Addon regardless of the stack. It's not for nothing that we play bankroll tournaments; the amount of the add-on should be insignificant for us, and questions about this should recede into the background. You don’t tell yourself: should I play this tournament or not? After all, as much as \$ 50 entry fee! It seems to me that the only exception is if we are chip leaders by a margin and the addon will add practically nothing to our stack at all. True, even in the case of chip leadership, as long as I can remember, I took it.

#### MAGICUZ

##### Legend
Loyaler
i never take add on,I do not get the point of it.If you are destined to lose all the chips,then why waste money on add on)))If all goes well, the stack can be expanded without add on

R

#### RedMatrix

##### Enthusiast
If my stack size is more than average, then I add on or else I don't.

This doesn't make sense. It's like some Christmas lights say on the box "For indoor or outdoor use ONLY." Then they are for either, why use the word 'only' ?

i never take add on,I do not get the point of it.If you are destined to lose all the chips,then why waste money on add on)))If all goes well, the stack can be expanded without add on

If your stack size is down to 10 BB, and the addon gives you 10 BB, you essentially double up right then and there. If in the very next hand after addon you get AA and end up putting all your chips in the middle, then based on whether you added on or not, and you win the hand, the results are either your stack is now 20BB, or 40BB. And *that's* the power of the addon for small stacks.

#### nuttea

##### Visionary
i usually take the add on if most of my opponents are. but sometimes this is less than 10bb

is there a min number of bbs that is strategically correct in taking the add on.

is there a calculation similar to icm that determines if taking the add on is correct.

any thoughts on add on would be appreciated
Well, in such a situation, I think you need to look first of all at the level of the blinds. If these 3K = 25 bb, then this is one thing, and if 10 bb, then this addon is not needed. On the other hand, there is also a recommendation, it is always worth taking if the addon is more than 10% of your stack

#### franken222

##### Visionary
I keep my game simple, and my theory is simple:

Don't invest good money after bad.

I really dislike rebuy, and add-on tournaments. They create somewhat of an uneven playing field....those that are willing to throw in more money, and those that are not.

I'm from the old school: One entry fee only.

#### Ragonesi

##### Rock Star
I never take a rebuy, add-on after the first period maybe, but I believe that when you lose you dont need to lose more, gets to a point everyone can dominate your hand

T

#### TomCj

##### Rock Star
Not for Me

I trust my playing skill to get me into the money

In most cases, if you are not winning enough hands to stay in the game