Who made the bad decision?

dj11

dj11

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One of us did!

Given that AG is the suckout King, especially against me. In this hand he puts me in a weird position. If I call, he will bet big regardless, and I have the ugly decision. I decided to put him to the big decision. His tourney life was at stake. I contend he should have layed down his hand. He of course thinks I'm the donkey for reraising all in with my hand.



Stacks:
- joker131 with 5925 - dj13 with 2085 - L.Schumner with 2065 - dakota-xx with 1085 - kooze01 with 1565 - AnnoDomino with 480 - gamedemon with 1670

index.pl


index.pl

Blinds: 25/50
Site: pokerstars
Dealt to dj13:
9h.gif
9s.gif

* - Sklansky group 3
Preflop:
* - [joker131] bad calls last night dj13 raises 150 to 200
* - L.Schumner raises 400 to 600 dj13 raises 1485 to 2085 [ all-in ]
* - L.Schumner calls [1465] [ all-in ]
* - Folds: 5
* - Potsize: 4200
Flop:
qd.gif
jh.gif
5h.gif

* - Potsize: 4200
Turn:
ad.gif

* - Potsize: 4200
River:
4h.gif

Results:
* - L.Schumner shows a flush, Ace high:
qh.gif
ah.gif

* - dj13 shows a pair of Nines:
9h.gif
9s.gif

* - L.Schumner collected 4180 from pot

Hand Converter By Cardschat.com Poker Forum


It is interesting to note that AG has done this to me several times, as well as others, but when he does it to me, he goes into a reverse tilt, and starts overplaying his hands and ends up going out early. Muahahahahahaha
 
P

ph_il

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I've always believed that it doesn't matter what hand you raise all in with, but what matters are the hands you call all ins with, especially if its for your tournament life.

If you're the first to push then you have nothing to worry about except losing the hand. You've made your decision and there is nothing you can do about it. If you're beat, you're beat. However, your opponent has a lot to think about, especially if they're holding an unmade hand. Am I beat at this point? At best will I be in a race situation? Am I dominated? If I call and lose, will I be out? What type of hands would my opponent reraising me with? What range of hands can I beat? Etc.

So, you really put a lot of pressure on your opponent.

As for your question? I personally dont like the call with AQs, but I dont know AGs read on the situation.
 
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aliengenius

aliengenius

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Raise from steal position, I reraise his "steal", he shoves, I put him on putting me on a resteal with the shove, call knowing I crush is initial steal range. I win the coin flip.

Keep thinking my re-raises are BS everyone, please. When I re-raise you, you don't get to "auto-aggress" back with lots of fold equity-- I am not folding my re-raise range with any regularity, so your shove is terrible: just because I happen to 'only' have AQ here doesn't mean it wasn't a bad decision by you to push. Seriously, how do you feel when I turn over KK like I did vs. Vanq's JJ ?

Btw, losing a 50/50 race isn't a suck out or bad beat imo, even if you are a couple of % pts. to win.
 
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rob5775

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Raise from steal position, I reraise his "steal", he shoves, I put him on putting me on a resteal with the shove, call knowing I crush is initial steal range. I win the coin flip.
Keep thinking my re-raises are BS everyone, please. When I re-raise you, you don't get to "auto-aggress" back with lots of fold equity-- I am not folding my re-raise range with any regularity, so your shove is terrible: just because I happen to 'only' have AQ here doesn't mean it wasn't a bad decision by you to push. Seriously, how do you feel when I turn over KK like I did vs. Vanq. JJ ?

<3 AG
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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I've always believed that it doesn't matter what hand you raise all in with, but what matters are the hands you call all ins with, especially if its for your tournament life.

If you're the first to push then you have nothing to worry about except losing the hand. You've made your decision and there is nothing you can do about it. If you're beat, you're beat. However, your opponent has a lot to think about, especially if they're holding an unmade hand. Am I beat at this point? At best will I be in a race situation? Am I dominated? If I call and lose, will I be out? What type of hands would my opponent reraising me with? What range of hands can I beat? Etc.

So, you really put a lot of pressure on your opponent.

As for your question? I personally dont like the call with AQs, but I dont know AGs read on the situation.

Trust me, I do NOT make it a habit of calling off my tournament with AQ. As I explained above, however, I really am not surprised to see A9s, 99, or even KQs and similar hands shown by my opponent here.


ty sir. (kids these days, no respect).
 
NineLions

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Raise from steal position, I reraise his "steal", he shoves, I put him on putting me on a resteal with the shove, call knowing I crush is initial steal range. I win the coin flip.

I know I ask this kind of question a lot, but what do you do in dj's position then AG?

Call the SB reraise, fold to SB flop bet at cards over your 99?
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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I know I ask this kind of question a lot, but what do you do in dj's position then AG?

Call the SB reraise, fold to SB flop bet at cards over your 99?

Uh, fold preflop when re-raised never occurs to anyone?

Really, you do the same thing you should with any decision like this: you put your opponent on a range of hands that he would re-raise here with (admittedly larger than normal given the steal/re-steal situation), then compare your hand to that range vis a vis the pot odds.
 
skoldpadda

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I like calling the extra 400 and seeing a flop.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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I like calling the extra 400 and seeing a flop.

That puts you in a pretty tough spot: I am going to c-bet almost every flop, for at least 800, which would be approx. 50% of the remaining stacks (maybe I'll shove, maybe check if I hit). Hence, you can't really set mine here, and 99 is going to see an over card a vast majority of the time. Now you are just guessing as to if I have that card or not, and with little fold equity at around the 5:1 I'll be getting after the c-bet to call the shove.
 
ChuckTs

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I fold after the resteal unless AG's likely to be making a resteal with rags. 99 is good for a steal, but I don't like calling or pushing. Pushing doesn't give us much FE, and calling basically means we're seeing a flop with little manoeuvring ability, and are often seeing one or two overcards.

AG's call isn't bad either considering the situation. If dj's in any way aggressive (and this push with 99 leads me to believe he is), then we're in a decent situation. 2:1 isn't bad at all, and this is BSB which means dj's range could be much worse than had his raise had come from EP or MP.

I think both player's play this hand is a little murky, but I don't know the exact dynamics of the table.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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I fold after the resteal unless AG's likely to be making a resteal with rags. 99 is good for a steal, but I don't like calling or pushing. Pushing doesn't give us much FE, and calling basically means we're seeing a flop with little manoeuvring ability, and are often seeing one or two overcards.

AG's call isn't bad either considering the situation. If dj's in any way aggressive (and this push with 99 leads me to believe he is), then we're in a decent situation. 2:1 isn't bad at all, and this is BSB which means dj's range could be much worse than had his raise had come from EP or MP.

Exactly...
So many people overplay hands like 99, A9s, KQs, etc. in situations like this that here is one of the times that I am more than willing to call w AQ. This is exactly the situation that occurred with Vanquish when he had JJ: raise late (from the hj) with JJ, I reraise from one of the blinds, he shoves, I call w KK. Easy, sure, but the situation is exactly the same: over aggression with "marginal" hands vs a re-raise.

My re-raise range is designed to be dominating the hands that make these over aggressive moves (yes, I consider AQ as a dominating, not dominated hand, usually).

btw, shoving eliminates your positional advantage, such that it may be...
 
dj11

dj11

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Well, FWIW, I had AG on exactly that range. Actually, I've seen AG call with any 2 paint here.

Do I mind his suckout? Nah. I know that suckouts count.

I do think his decision to call was a bad decision. I was ahead at the time I made my shove. Albeit a small lead. His tourney was on the line and he made a hopeful call.

He sucked out on my AA last week too.

He even sucked out on me to end my day with 64o hitting a str8 over my last stand hitting a pair of tens.

As much as I disliked the outcome here, I will do it again AG !! Because, well, you taught me not to be results oriented! Total insanity works much better!
 
NineLions

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I do think his decision to call was a bad decision. I was ahead at the time I made my shove. Albeit a small lead. His tourney was on the line and he made a hopeful call.

I guess I'm beginning to follow that from his standpoint it doesn't really matter whether you had 99 and were ahead or not, but rather whether he's ahead of your range for the situation, as well as how accurate his guess of your range is relative to your actual range.

It brings to mind something I read from Annette somewhere, about how stealing from the button moved to stealing from CO and now she thinks the stealing position is UTG.


Thanks for the contribution, AG and Chuck, and for the thread dj.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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Big Ace compared to mid/small pairs when ReRaising

Well, FWIW, I had AG on exactly that range. Actually, I've seen AG call with any 2 paint here.

Do I mind his suckout? Nah. I know that suckouts count.

I do think his decision to call was a bad decision. I was ahead at the time I made my shove. Albeit a small lead. His tourney was on the line and he made a hopeful call.

He sucked out on my AA last week too.

He even sucked out on me to end my day with 64o hitting a str8 over my last stand hitting a pair of tens.

As much as I disliked the outcome here, I will do it again AG !! Because, well, you taught me not to be results oriented! Total insanity works much better!

You'll have to post the "call with any paint hand", because that is not something I hate to do unless the specific situation/odds really dictated it, and in fact, probably make more bad folds than I should in those situations.

I guess I need some claification: you knew you had no fold equity, and wanted to race as a slight favorite (or be crushed a good chunk of the time)?

Sorry about the AA, but if we look at that hand I don't think you'll find too big of an error on my part there either. I don't KNOW you have AA. As to the 64o, you'll have to post that too, as you probably had very few chips left, and I called from the bb.

Anyway, calling does suck, but sometimes you have to do it. Pushing, obvioulsy, is much better.

So, would you rather push with a big ace or with a mid pair?

dj seems to like the mid pair, because it is a "made" hand that is slightly ahead of the big ace.

However consider this:

When you ARE called and you have a big ace, you are either:

1. way ahead (vs. a weaker ace)
OR
2. in a 50/50ish race.

When you are called when you hold a pair you are either:

1. way behind (vs. a bigger pair)
OR
2. in a 50/50ish race.

See the difference?
 
vanquish

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I played that JJ hand so bad. I was feeling super impatient / slightly intoxicated, and shoved impulsively ldo. Even though I'm crushing PP right now, I am actually trying to remaster my game right now, and tbh I'd rather get my bad plays out here and make some conclusions myself than at the next big donkament I play where the payouts actually matter.
 
J

joeeagles

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I think both player's play this hand is a little murky, but I don't know the exact dynamics of the table.


I agree. I can say that dj's shove is a bit excessive, but I really don't like the call with AQs either :) .

The fact it's a BSB battle fully justifies AG's resteal attempt; heck, I resteal many times with AQs even if the PF raise didn't come from the BTN when the circumstances are good for it. However, when dj shoves, I think we need to reconsider his range, which is the main reason why I included Chuck's comment about table dynamics. Actually, the dynamics seem to be even deeper than just "this" table, because from their posts its clear that they've played each other a lot.

Although I'm not aware of what happened in their previous run-ins, this to me appears as if both clearly overplayed their hands. Ag's raise to 600 leaves him with 1465 (blinds at 25/50), so his argument of "having" to call this falls a bit short IMO. From that POV, the reraise to 600 is almost perfect because you can still (lol, and should) fold to a shove. That said, if he figures dj capable of shoving with AJ, AT type of hands then the call is ok(ish). I might not totally hate it, but it's hard to love it.

Dj's shove is also hard to love, but in the same time I guess he did it with some specific idea of AG's resteal range. If he has seen him do this (that's what he claims) with 2 paint, then the shove isn't too bad because it'll force him to fold. He's also first to put his chips in so he does have first in vigorish. I find that FIV is a bit overused to the point that I see people now calling with much less than AQ (FE considerations aside). I still consider it important though because there is a huge difference between calling off your stack and shoving.

I <3 AG and respect his sound knowledge of game theory, that's why I have a quote of his as my signature and also have asked his opinion in the past. In truth though, his decision looks worse than dj's :) . But this conclusion doesn't account for the many times they have played each other, and there is no overstating how important that is. It certainly is supported by the fact that I'm sure that both are better than what they displayed in this HH.
 
blankoblanco

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AG's pattern mapper told him he would make a flush. standard call with the preemptive nuts
 
Genso Hikki

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AG's pattern mapper told him he would make a flush. standard call with the preemptive nuts

Oh no! If he has a pattern mapper that means he won't need me as his personal psychic anymore.

Seriously, I think both players have justified their actions. If it had been me, I probably would've just called dj11's raise with the AQ and seen if I hit the flop, but AG's reasoning makes sense to me too.

And maybe, just maybe dj was playing the his image of his opponent more than his cards.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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Raise from steal position, I reraise his "steal", he shoves, I put him on putting me on a resteal with the shove, call knowing I crush is initial steal range.

My read^^. This is partially meta-game based, as I know that dj seems to think I am some kind of maniac who will resteal with air :)D). If I run into a hand here, I can live with it. More often than not, however, I see A9s, mid-pairs, KQs, and other hands I have crushed. You have to account for this type of overplaying of hands, or your game is going to be a bit too weak-tight.

AG's pattern mapper told him he would make a flush. standard call with the preemptive nuts

lol
 
O

ol_sin

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well, both were pretty bad. If I were you, I would have just called the reraise and folded on the flop (and been really pissed but still in)

if i were him, I would have just called the raise. I understand his preflop reraise with AQ. I used to do it all of the time aswell. (not anymore) my reasoning was that with AQ, almost anything that dominates me (AA, KK, QQ, AK) would move all in over the top of me, at which point i would fold, and I could take a lead in most of the other pots.

obviously that wasn't his reasoning here because when you moved allin over the top of him, he called.

both plays were bad. There is no reason to risk so much with hands like this at a point where the blinds are only 25/50 and you guys each had about 2,000 (you had enough room to play some mind games instead of shoving everything in)

the correct play for him would have been to just call your raise
the correct play for you would have been to fold to his reraise.
 
dj11

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Funny AG, I'm thinking my play against you is also part of a Meta Game thingy.:D

And tho ol_sin is probably correct, neither of us were in proper etiquette poker mode.:joyman:

I might also add that I don't think we have played in more than 10 games, and possibly less than five. I have no tracking system so I can't be sure. I have railed AG many times, both vocally and silently, and probably have a pretty good read on him.

At this time his suckout-o-meter is sitting at +2 bigones against me. But I realize that suckouts count, and have stopped even feeling guilty when they go my way. However, if I can impart even the tiniest sliver of guilt on AG about his absurd suckout ratio, then perhaps it will help him make a big mistake, hopefully against me.

And lest anyone think otherwise, I do think AG is the best CC'er playing games I play in. We may have better players, but they don't tend to play our social games very often.
 
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robwhufc

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At this time his suckout-o-meter is sitting at +2 bigones against me. But I realize that suckouts count, and have stopped even feeling guilty when they go my way. However, if I can impart even the tiniest sliver of guilt on AG about his absurd suckout ratio, then perhaps it will help him make a big mistake, hopefully against me.
Blinds were 25/50, you had 2,000 chips, you put ALL of your chips in pre-flop with 99 against a player you presumably knew would call and could only logically be a coin toss or well ahead of you, there were 3 overcards on the board, and you still think you were unlucky?
 
dj11

dj11

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I do not think I was unlucky, and roles reversed I think this could easily have played out just the same.

The money was all in preflop, so the 3 overcards were not a factor, at the time.

This post was not so much about the hand, but about the decisions involved.

After this much time, I am inclined to believe that I made a good decision and AG's was less good, but not out of the realm of sane.

Oh, and incidentally, the last time this scenario happened between AG and I, I showed AA, and he sucked out. That should have played (and I was hoping) in his decision making.
 
V

viking999

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The title of this thread is misguided. I personally think that both of you played it well, unless one of you is the tightest "stick up the ass" player in the world, which I wouldn't know having never played with you guys.

DJ's raise looks like a steal, so it's very reasonable to reraise with AQs OOP to take it down right there (but still be in good shape versus a call). AG's reraise looks like a move against a steal, so it's reasonable to think 99 is still the best hand.

DJ had 3 options: fold, call, or raise all-in. AG, you said you put DJ on 99+, A9+, KQ after his all-in. So after your reraise, it makes sense that he'd put you on an even wider range, including some total garbage that's just restealing. So I think folding is pretty unreasonable. It reduces risk, but I'm not really interested in that when I see a pretty much clear cut +EV spot. DJ could have just called, but he's going to be playing almost as much in the dark after the flop as before. The only clear cut flop is one with a 9 or 3 overcards. Only then do you reap the benefits of just calling. If AG is continuation betting almost any flop as he claims, then DJ is likely going to make as many bad folds or bad calls as he would make bad shoves preflop. Plus, just calling loses the fold equity versus hands like A8, JT, and total garbage. So, I'd go for the all-in.

For AG, if DJ's range is as stated above, then the all-in call is a no brainer. 2:1 odds, only 4 hands we're in bad shape against and 8 we're in healthy or dominating shape against.

AG, as for your assessment that shoving with AQs being better than shoving with 99, I think you overestimate your chances of being called and dominating. Let's say the hands were reversed. If the player making the calling decision puts you on the same range (99+, A9+, KQ), then he's almost never calling with AJ, which is your big money hand. It's in bad shape versus 6 hands, in a race with 4 hands (I consider KQ a race here, the edge being offset by the defecit against 99 and TT), and dominating versus only 2 hands. Not gonna crunch the numbers, but I think even getting 2:1 it's about 0 EV. Plus, it's a high risk, tournament life call. So even though 99 is never going to get called when it's dominating except on a fluke, AQ is in the same boat. They are called when dominated just about as often. So I think the slight edge of 99 against AQ and AK makes the difference.
 
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