Q's on the button, facing two all ins

[dillingerdis]

Queens is one of those hands that i have tried to calm down on. Its up there but its not that good. Against 2 allins i may have called though hoping they both had an ace, cutting down the chances that they would hit, but hoping they didnt have an over-pair. Considering you were second lowest in chips at this table wouldve probably talked me into it a little more, but its also really depends on what these other players were playing with earlier, if they were making raises with shit or not.

 

[Genso Hikki]

i am not a fan of getting all my chips in preflop. ever. i'd like to elaborate on this but i have to go back to work. i'll check back in later.

I'm very interested in seeing your reasoning for this.

Again, I'm not the most experienced player in the world, my personal feeling is I want to get all the chips in the middle everytime I have the best hand and I'm the favorite to win. I'll check back here later too because I really am interested in your explanation.

 

[robwhufc]

well rob, i couldn't care less what sharkscope says, or if you feel like you are getting at me or not. if you want to get at me, please do, you are entitled. no hard feelings. this is the kind of feedback that i need in order to get better. however, you seem intent on gambling and not playing the game. i agree that a player needs to get lucky from time to time to be on the winning side of poker. i get that.

my main concern is whether i played the hand correct or had the proper read on my oponents. i believe i've said this to you before, but my poker prowess is probably not as keen as yours. just recently i have started to take the game pretty seriously and not just for fun, and i am trying to start fresh and basically relearn everything that i thought i knew. perhaps i should have explained that part before i posted that hand.

i am going to stand by my fold. if i'm heads up, i'll call this all day long. but i have two aggressors then even more aggresion after i act, and i feel like i am going to be behind. and yes, i just called the initial raise because if i did get to see the flop, i can get out at the first sign of trouble with enough chips to keep me going.

you keep on gambling, i'll keep on learning, and we'll agree to disagree.

I'm no great shakes, i'm behind a few of the tournament players here, but i've won 3 180 player SnG's and 7 tournaments of 100 players plus, and I didn't do that by making perfect decisions every time, and outplaying opponents every hand - I did it by closing my eyes every now and then and taking a punt at opportune times, catching the odd card, and getting dealt the odd beauty.

I mentioned the sharkscope thing to show the consequence of your fold in this occassion - larisa06 picked up 6K chips that would have been yours - she turned that into $81. You folded, left yourself with 1,600 chips, and finished way out of the money. I'd have called (i'd have gone all in over the top of raiser actually), and I would have hoped that I would have cashed from there too.

I just don't see what your plan was to take the tournament down, with 1,600 chips when that's 1/2 or a 1/3rd that a good few on your table have got? How are you going to get that 1,600 up to 6,000 without taking risks? I'd be interested to know how the rest of your tourney went - i imagine you ended up all in in a coin toss with 1,200 or so chips - i.e. the same position you are in now, but in a much worse situation stack size. You have to realise, that to get from 1,600 to 6,000 over a number (say 5) of individual hands, will involve MUCH more risk culmutively than a one off 50/50 or 55/45. I'm not good enough to skillfully manoevre a stack around a game like that without taking the odd chance, but you don't have to get every one right to come out on top. Honest assessment - i don't think you are either (I don't think anyone is).

 

[Irexes]

I automatically call this every time with stacks as they are here. Doesn't even register as a decision to be honest.

If it's AK and JJ I'm very happy to see it and consider it a good result

 

[Irexes]

Actually looking at it properly I push when the action gets to me the first time. QQ is horrible in multiway pots and with 400 of your stack in the middle you're not looking to get away from it.

As it worked out though it's a great result preflop.


Edit: just to note that I'd happily call the two all ins, but I'd really want to avoid is having to play QQ in a multiway pot post-flop with short stacks and so would shove at the first opportunity.

 

[dufferdevon]

I really need to pay closer attention when responding to these. I did not see the chip stack of Chiefer. Having looked again, and seeing that there was a raise of 8x BB and a call before me I am shoving this.

You cannot just call in this spot as QQ is terrible in a multi way pot. What do you do if an over card hits the flop? Its either fold or shove preflop.

 

[kmixer]

You M was in the 20s so i would say a fold here is pretty easy. However with two others all in if they both have each others outs Ax and Ax then a call here is the way to go IMO. If you ready them as both having A then no question you call. If your M was lower then a call all in would be the way to go. Closer to the money a fold would be in order

I folded JJ once in a live game shortstacked and was told by quite a few people that it was the wrong move.

I agree with you that your hand should be played the same regardless of buy-in. I have shouted this at the rooftop of a 1 dollar SnG. The rules dont change because the buy-in is lower however there are more donks that do play their hands differently in low stakes and will tell you straight up that they do.

 

[vanquish]

Basically, if you're playing this tournament to win (which you should be doing in every tournament), you should get it in here to maximize return on equity.

 

[Four Dogs]

I wouldn't have even had to make the decision. All my chips would have been in the pot the first chance I had. Playing those Queens for set value are you? But as it stands? In a $4.40 tourney with the avg OPR hovering around 60% I make the crying call.

 

[AlBundy24]

I'm very interested in seeing your reasoning for this.

Again, I'm not the most experienced player in the world, my personal feeling is I want to get all the chips in the middle everytime I have the best hand and I'm the favorite to win. I'll check back here later too because I really am interested in your explanation.

I'm guessing the reasoning was that he doesn't like to gamble. It doesn't matter whether you have AA or 72, you have a chance to lose and a chance to win. I hate seeing percentages preflop because they give you a false sense of whether you're going to win the hand or not. Until you see the flop, all you have is two cards in your hand, and you need 5 cards to make a playable hand. Any pocket pair, is just a pair. If you don't make a set, without considering the other players hands, your chances of winning more than likely have dropped....a lot. This is a drawing game, and EVERY HAND is a drawing hand. If you put all your chips in preflop, then you can't get away from the hand and just hope you get lucky and win (getting lucky doesn't always mean sucking out). Talk to any pro and they will tell you they hate putting all of their chips in preflop, with ANY starting hand.

 

[vanquish]

Talk to any pro and they will tell you they hate putting all of their chips in preflop, with ANY starting hand.

If a pro told me they hate getting all their chips in preflop with AA, I would drink the blood of angels instead of beer for the next month.

 

[pitter22]

I agree with Rob here extensively that we have to get all our money in here. lets put this into perspective.. your saying 45/55 so...

you get a paycheck every 2 weeks for $1200. at the end of every week you have the option to flip a coin to make it $6000.

Please dont tell me you dont flip for the 6k. you will benefit in the long run.

 

[Chiefer]

holy crap. it's like you people see Q's and you cream your pants. let's get it all in cuz i am sure that i am the heavy favorite here. NO DOUBT. there are nine other players on this table and any one of them can have anything. i've seen it live and i've seen it online. i probably made a nit fold here. but i feel i made the right decision based on the betting preflop.

rob, you are a gambler. you will take, what you think is that slight favorite hand, and jam it all day long. that's you. you either go big or go home. well that's not me. you play preflop, i play post flop. you can argue all you want with me about getting it in as a slight fave but you will never convince me that it is a good move in this situation. you keep gambling, and i'll be patient. either way, from what i understand, debating hands with you is like flogging a dead horse.

much respect and no hard feelings.

 

[Chiefer]

you get a paycheck every 2 weeks for $1200. at the end of every week you have the option to flip a coin to make it $6000.

seriously! ugh. that statement has just wiffled my brain. i can no lognerner brainer. youou havvve reeeeeeeeetardeddded mmmmea.

i work for a living. i don't gamble it away on a coin flip. sorry, my kids gotta eat.

 

[Chiefer]

I'm very interested in seeing your reasoning for this.

Again, I'm not the most experienced player in the world, my personal feeling is I want to get all the chips in the middle everytime I have the best hand and I'm the favorite to win. I'll check back here later too because I really am interested in your explanation.

there are 1326 possible combinations of hole cards and only A's beat them. there are 6 different combinations of aces and preflop no combination is relevant. preflop is an unknown, the only exact known is our hand. we can never be certain of what our opponents have. we can only take what little information we are given, bets, posistion, etc, and use that to decide what we are to do preflop. post flop there is usually a wealth of information, depending on posistion, to base decisions on. far more than preflop for certain. this is why posistion is so important. at least this is why i view it as the most important aspect of every decision i make on the felt.

there are also over 2,598,960 possible 5 card combinations that can come if each hand is allowed to go to showdown, this can happen at anytime.

so i prefer to play post flop. rob likes to gambool. he's a preflop player. it seems to me that he would just assume bust early and enter another tournament then take the time building a stack patiently and skillfully by reads and well timed aggresion.

by the way, all of the numbers i've provided can be found pretty easily by searching google. i'm not this smart. trust me.

 

[Irexes]

When you fold QQ here, you are gambling that you will get a better situation in the future Chiefer.

I'm all for different approaches to things, and I make a lot of laydowns in tournaments that people disagree with but in the stack situation you are describing this is an instashove with massive positive chip and dollar equity.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

why did it take 21 posts in here before someone said shove preflop first time around?

seriously, 100% shove first time around. bad players will call with all sorts of hands that you beat, and some good players may read you for a squeeze and call a little loosely too.

as played it's still a trivial call. you have a fifth of your stack in already and against two ranges of JJ+/AQ+ (if you think these ranges are unreasonable then please explain) you fare pretty well - certainly well enough to justify calling with 20% of your stack already in.

basically with 40BBs in a donkament you would have to come up with some horrible manufactured hand for me to consider folding QQ.

so i prefer to play post flop. rob likes to gambool. he's a preflop player. it seems to me that he would just assume bust early and enter another tournament then take the time building a stack patiently and skillfully by reads and well timed aggresion.

umm if you like to play post flop stop playing donkaments.

you have 40BBs here. soon the blinds are going to go up to 50/100 and all other things being equal you will have 20BBs. a 20BB stack is not exactly an ideal stack for exploiting any postflop edge, as (a) 90% of the play will be preflop - stealing and restealing, and (b) you will seldom see a turn or river without being arrrrrrin.

 

[Mehman]

well, it turns out i would have won the hand, but only on two outer on the river.

I believe we have more then two outs on the turn , i'm usually the last guy to be nitty, you guys are losing your touch .

 

[Chiefer]

funny enough, rob had me convinced that this is a shove awhile ago. i just like to argue with him. lol. he's not challenged enough.

 

[naruto_miu]

i want to just call the initial bet, because i don't want to put it all in here with just queens, if i reraise i am committed.

now with the 2 all ins i know that someone has at least AK i'm only a slight favorite to that and i don't want to race at this point. call or fold?


PokerStars Game #21119902189: Tournament #113607029, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2008/10/11 20:59:07 ET
Table '113607029 16' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: darren 110 (3080 in chips)
Seat 2: Chiefer77 (2050 in chips)
Seat 3: JPAS-Québec (5475 in chips)
Seat 4: DaveMidd (2735 in chips)
Seat 5: larisa06 (4220 in chips)
Seat 6: Hellas001 (2520 in chips)
Seat 7: Lobo2304 (1725 in chips)
Seat 8: stylishlady3 (2130 in chips)
JPAS-Québec: posts small blind 25
DaveMidd: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Chiefer77 [Qc Qh]
Hellas001 said, "u had me"
larisa06: raises 350 to 400
Hellas001: folds
Lobo2304: folds
stylishlady3: calls 400
darren 110: folds
Chiefer77: calls 400
JPAS-Québec: folds
DaveMidd: raises 2335 to 2735 and is all-in
larisa06: calls 2335
stylishlady3: folds
Chiefer77: ?

Ok, first thing first, how many ppl were left, you state that it's early on, which leads me to believe above 100? If that's the case in point, then auto-call this, simply put, you need chips early on, ppl make dumb moves just to try and suckout on you early on, which give them a better chance to make it the money (Hope that clears that up). Now I would say fold this hand, if it were down to say 20 ppl, for the simple fact that you atleast want you money back, since this Mtt only pays top 18, not to mention you would (atleast for me, be in top 14th by the time your down to 20ppl left which doesn't give you much room to move around in, but still more room then the other short stacks, I hope I helped you out somewhat

 

[Chiefer]

read the post about yours

 

[AlBundy24]

If a pro told me they hate getting all their chips in preflop with AA, I would drink the blood of angels instead of beer for the next month.

So you're in a tournament, 9 seat tables, you have the 2nd most chips and the chip leader is at your table. You're 10 away from the money and you're in the BB with AA. UTG shoves, he's short stack. All seven other players go all in as well, which means for you to call you must go all in. Would you trust your tournament life, 10 away to the money, 9 handed with AA? I know this situation is way exaggerated but if you said yes, you are a true gambler and this would probably be a 9 way coin toss. I read a poker tip from the pros of WPT that said, "...AA is the best possible starting hand, but always remember, it's only a pair!" lol People like you get AA and about wet themselves thinking you've won the hand already. Like I said before, I hate seeing preflop odds, because that has nothing to do with what is going to come post flop. I've seen AA lose too many times to fall in love with it.

And btw, have you noticed how most pros get knocked out of big tournaments? It's by getting all of their chips in preflop. Only time a pro goes out post flop is by being up against a cooler. Knowing those two facts, is it that hard to believe a pro would rather see a flop BEFORE he/she goes all in, with ANY TWO CARDS? Don't forget, they're there to win. And 99 times out of 100, it takes a good player to win, not a lucky gambler.

 

[FatBasset]

One thing I picked up Sklansky's Theory of Poker and really buy into is that a successful poker player gets his chips in when the odds are in his favor and folds when they are not. In this hand you were being offered 4 to 1 odds and you believed you were at least 50% to win it. Your fold is clearly incorrect. Poker is a long term game and if you aren't putting your chips in when the odds favor you how are you going to be a long term winner?

 

[CfPoker]

So you're in a tournament, 9 seat tables, you have the 2nd most chips and the chip leader is at your table. You're 10 away from the money and you're in the BB with AA. UTG shoves, he's short stack. All seven other players go all in as well, which means for you to call you must go all in. Would you trust your tournament life, 10 away to the money, 9 handed with AA? I know this situation is way exaggerated but if you said yes, you are a true gambler and this would probably be a 9 way coin toss. I read a poker tip from the pros of WPT that said, "...AA is the best possible starting hand, but always remember, it's only a pair!" lol People like you get AA and about wet themselves thinking you've won the hand already. Like I said before, I hate seeing preflop odds, because that has nothing to do with what is going to come post flop. I've seen AA lose too many times to fall in love with it.

And btw, have you noticed how most pros get knocked out of big tournaments? It's by getting all of their chips in preflop. Only time a pro goes out post flop is by being up against a cooler. Knowing those two facts, is it that hard to believe a pro would rather see a flop BEFORE he/she goes all in, with ANY TWO CARDS? Don't forget, they're there to win. And 99 times out of 100, it takes a good player to win, not a lucky gambler.

I'm sorry, but some of what you say here is just silly.

In your contrived example then a fold is probably in order, but this situation is so unlikely to happen. Apart from a few select situations folding AA preflop is a mistake.

"Like I said before, I hate seeing preflop odds, because that has nothing to do with what is going to come post flop"

Um, yes they do. That's the whole point. If you're all in with AA vs a random hand then it's about 80% for AA to win after the 5 cards have been dealt. Early in a tournament you might want to see a flop to assess whether you've run into one of the 20% of times you're destined to lose, but generally in tournaments you're quite shallow stacked such that you should be more than happy to get it all in preflop.