Q's on the button, facing two all ins

Chiefer

Chiefer

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i want to just call the initial bet, because i don't want to put it all in here with just queens, if i reraise i am committed.

now with the 2 all ins i know that someone has at least AK i'm only a slight favorite to that and i don't want to race at this point. call or fold?


pokerstars Game #21119902189: Tournament #113607029, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2008/10/11 20:59:07 ET
Table '113607029 16' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: darren 110 (3080 in chips)
Seat 2: Chiefer77 (2050 in chips)
Seat 3: JPAS-Québec (5475 in chips)
Seat 4: DaveMidd (2735 in chips)
Seat 5: larisa06 (4220 in chips)
Seat 6: Hellas001 (2520 in chips)
Seat 7: Lobo2304 (1725 in chips)
Seat 8: stylishlady3 (2130 in chips)
JPAS-Québec: posts small blind 25
DaveMidd: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Chiefer77 [Qc Qh]
Hellas001 said, "u had me"
larisa06: raises 350 to 400
Hellas001: folds
Lobo2304: folds
stylishlady3: calls 400
darren 110: folds
Chiefer77: calls 400
JPAS-Québec: folds
DaveMidd: raises 2335 to 2735 and is all-in
larisa06: calls 2335
stylishlady3: folds
Chiefer77: ?
 
dufferdevon

dufferdevon

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I'd like to say that the chances are someone has AK and another has AA or KK. But this is a small stakes MTT and having played in enough of them, this is often 99 vs AJ or AQ being so early in the tourney.

I would still fold but I wouldn't like it. The reason is I dont need the A7 pusher to hit the Ace and knock me out so soon. There will be other spots.
 
dufferdevon

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Case in pont ^^^^

PokerStars Game #21121473888: Tournament #112869552, $0.25+$0.00 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/10/11 22:14:41 ET
Table '112869552 364' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Binedz (1145 in chips)
Seat 2: IrishSamurai (1705 in chips)
Seat 3: kazaam9 (1400 in chips)
Seat 4: Scott1587 (2200 in chips)
Seat 5: djgolfcan (2070 in chips)
Seat 6: oakbrook22 (1660 in chips)
Seat 7: PokerPro.ca (1280 in chips)
Seat 8: JAC1223 (2590 in chips)
Seat 9: nopilikia2 (1590 in chips)
kazaam9: posts small blind 15
Scott1587: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to djgolfcan [Kd Kc]
djgolfcan: raises 90 to 120
oakbrook22: raises 1540 to 1660 and is all-in
PokerPro.ca: folds
JAC1223: folds
nopilikia2: folds
Binedz: folds
IrishSamurai: folds
kazaam9: calls 1385 and is all-in
Scott1587: folds
djgolfcan: calls 1540
*** FLOP *** [2h 3s 2d]
*** TURN *** [2h 3s 2d] [7c]
*** RIVER *** [2h 3s 2d 7c] [4d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
djgolfcan: shows [Kd Kc] (two pair, Kings and Deuces)
oakbrook22: shows [Qh Qc] (two pair, Queens and Deuces)
djgolfcan collected 520 from side pot
kazaam9: shows [Qs Kh] (a pair of Deuces)
djgolfcan collected 4230 from main pot
subprimedead is connected
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4750 Main pot 4230. Side pot 520. | Rake 0
Board [2h 3s 2d 7c 4d]
Seat 1: Binedz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: IrishSamurai (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: kazaam9 (small blind) showed [Qs Kh] and lost with a pair of Deuces
Seat 4: Scott1587 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: djgolfcan showed [Kd Kc] and won (4750) with two pair, Kings and Deuces
Seat 6: oakbrook22 showed [Qh Qc] and lost with two pair, Queens and Deuces
Seat 7: PokerPro.ca folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: JAC1223 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: nopilikia2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
Poof

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Easy fold for me, if no one all-inned I would say shove it like a red- headed step child.
 
dj11

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Due to the fact that you were close to being the shortstack, I think you want to be in this pot more often than you want to pat yourself on the back telling yourself you made a big laydown.

One might think both players has AX maybe even suited, but you are ahead going in against all expect AA, KK, and if either of them had that do you think they would shove up front, risking scaring everyone away? Only you can answer that from your table read at the time. So smaller pairs take on added probabilities, but again, read dependent.

Most of the time I'd have called.
 
AlBundy24

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It's a 4 dollar tourney. Call that in a heartbeat. Unless of course you're on a tight budget, where 4 dollars is a lot to you these days. Then I'd pitch it and watch.
 
Chiefer

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Due to the fact that you were close to being the shortstack, I think you want to be in this pot more often than you want to pat yourself on the back telling yourself you made a big laydown.

One might think both players has AX maybe even suited, but you are ahead going in against all expect AA, KK, and if either of them had that do you think they would shove up front, risking scaring everyone away? Only you can answer that from your table read at the time. So smaller pairs take on added probabilities, but again, read dependent.

Most of the time I'd have called.


well there was an initial raise of 400. one caller, then me, then a push, then a call on the push. then initial caller folds. that left me.

even if one of my oponents have a big ace, such as Ak, they have 6 outs to improve where i only have two. it's less than i a 60 40 situation for me. i'm racing and i don't want to. it's still early. i am leaning towards folding here. two huge aggression plays screams that i am behind.

i'm interested in some other opinions though.
 
Chiefer

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It's a 4 dollar tourney. Call that in a heartbeat. Unless of course you're on a tight budget, where 4 dollars is a lot to you these days. Then I'd pitch it and watch.


i truly hate this response. it's one of the dumbest responses that we get in the analysis forum.

the point is not what the buy in is. it could be a 4 dollar or a 400 dollar tournament. i want to play the hand right. you will never learn how to play the game right if you base all your decisions on how much it cost you to enter the tournament.
 
mrsnake3695

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i truly hate this response. it's one of the dumbest responses that we get in the analysis forum.

the point is not what the buy in is. it could be a 4 dollar or a 400 dollar tournament. i want to play the hand right. you will never learn how to play the game right if you base all your decisions on how much it cost you to enter the tournament.

I don't think this is the dumbest response we get. The ammonut of buy in as well as the current level are all part of our reads and decision making process. You will certainly see different play in a 4 dollar tourney vs a $40 or a $400 one. This bit of information certainly needs to be factored in when deciding on how to play in a given situation.

If your playing a high buy in game against good players the all-in call makes this a pretty easy fold. However, early in a $4.00 donk fest it's not such an easy fold since the range of hands that could both push here and call is much larger.

You mentioned that you ony have 2 outs. But against most hands you don't need any outs since you are usually ahead.

I don't think at this early stage you want to worry about A-7 maybe beating you. If you know you're up against A-7 would you call? I would hope so.

I'm not saying if you should call or fold here, I think this is very much read dependent. Just that the amount of buy-in and the current level is just as important to your decision making as stack sizes, etc.
 
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I think I lay it down this time. Yes its hard, but I have chips where I can work on winning some smaller pots and build my stack up to put in contention. When they reveal their cards, pay attention, and make a note of what they went all in with. If they went A, rag, or A,xsuited or k,qsuited, this will give you an idea later on in the game if they start pushing on whether you want to make a call against them then.
 
Chiefer

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i guess we will have to disagree to a point. the amount of the buy in means nothing to me but it may mean something to the vilian. i play the game the same way, whether is a freeroll or an actual real money game. drunken 2NL doesn't count. baseing the entire decision on the amount of the buy in is just dumb, that's what his post implied. that's just dumb plain and simple. while i will agree that you will find a higher level of play at the higher limits. i need to make sure that i am playing my hands at every limit the best possible way.

in my example i said that if one of the vilians has AK, he has 6 outs that beat me. if one of those comes on the flop, i only have 2 outs to improve. so preflop with Q's against AK, it's about a 55 45 race. not to mention that i have another vilian to worry about. not to mention shoving A7 makes no sense in this situation.

now if there was no push preflop and an ace hit's the flop, regarless of whether you are up against A7 or AK, you are a 90 10 dog, do you still call another bet?
 
mrsnake3695

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not to mention that i have another vilian to worry about. not to mention shoving A7 makes no sense in this situation.

now if there was no push preflop and an ace hit's the flop, regarless of whether you are up against A7 or AK, you are a 90 10 dog, do you still call another bet?


I was talking about being up against A-7 preflop which is where this decision is. If you have pocket queens agains A-7 pre flop all-in, do you call.

For your point that shoving makes no sense in this situation, that's where the buy-in comes in to play. It may not make sense but it happens all the time.
 
Chiefer

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I was talking about being up against A-7 preflop which is where this decision is. If you have pocket queens agains A-7 pre flop all-in, do you call.



For your point that shoving makes no sense in this situation, that's where the buy-in comes in to play. It may not make sense but it happens all the time.


i would def call if i knew vilian had A7, but i think we can reasonably assume that that is not what we are up against.


i agree, we do see much looser play and to say the least, idiotic play at these limits, but like i said, i feel that i have to base my decision on what makes sense in this situation.
 
Chiefer

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well, it turns out i would have won the hand, but only on two outer on the river.


*** FLOP *** [7h 5h Jh]
*** TURN *** [7h 5h Jh] [Ad]
*** RIVER *** [7h 5h Jh Ad] [Qs]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DaveMidd: shows [Ks As] (a pair of Aces)
larisa06: shows [Jd Jc] (three of a kind, Jacks)
larisa06 collected 6295 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6295 | Rake 0
Board [7h 5h Jh Ad Qs]
Seat 1: darren 110 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Chiefer77 (button) folded before Flop
Seat 3: JPAS-Québec (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: DaveMidd (big blind) showed [Ks As] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 5: larisa06 showed [Jd Jc] and won (6295) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 6: Hellas001 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Lobo2304 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: stylishlady3 folded before Flop
 
AlBundy24

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i truly hate this response. it's one of the dumbest responses that we get in the analysis forum.

the point is not what the buy in is. it could be a 4 dollar or a 400 dollar tournament. i want to play the hand right. you will never learn how to play the game right if you base all your decisions on how much it cost you to enter the tournament.

Sorry, I should've elaborated on this. I was tired and slightly intoxicated. OK, being that it is a cheaper tourney, you could easily be up against a hands like J9 offsuit or even my friend's favorite hand...A5 offsuit. Look at the competition you're up against and study their play. If you notice more plays by the book by everybody, then I would probably pitch the Qs. However, I've seen people play in 20 dollar tourneys that will shove with hands as bad as 75 suited, either just because it's suited, or just because they're stupid....take your pick. Either way, this is a judgement call. I hate racing Qs against AK, just because everyone seems to hit an A against me. Whatever hand you put the other people on, assume you are right and make your decision based on that. If you put them on KK or AA, then this is an automatic fold. If you put them on AK, call (unless you truly hate QQ against AK).
 
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dufferdevon

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Like I said, I wouldn't like it but I would fold here as well. Maybe I amjust being a nit but I like to think I can outplay most of the field without having to risk my tournament life on a coin flip.
 
Chiefer

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Like I said, I wouldn't like it but I would fold here as well. Maybe I amjust being a nit but I like to think I can outplay most of the field without having to risk my tournament life on a coin flip.


i agree 100%, i was pissed as i watched the hand unfold, but i still feel i made the right decision. i was ahead preflop, but as stated, i it would have been a flip.
 
Chiefer

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chances are that one of them will hit something, like an ace or king. your odds arent too great there.


this is what i figured as well.

by the way, are you a pitch player as well? pitch is my first card game love.
 
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i think both actions are defendable.. but I think in that spot like u said about playing at a high level at all limits, a fold is the correct situation, u re max a 55% favourite and if you fold you still have over 30 BBs left, which is more than enough...

good play man..
 
robwhufc

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I just don't get these threads at all. You don't want to be racing/coin flip when you have the chance of TRIPLING up. You call a 8xBB raise with a previous caller, rather than re-raising, as you don't want to be pot commited with "just" pocket Queens. And everybody seems to agree with you - bet 1/5th of your 2,000 stack, and then fold PRE-flop with the 3rd best hand, because people have played back at you.


I nkow you didn't cash - here's the result from sharkscope - look at who came 3rd!

1ward84$211.60
2JPAS-Québec$139.60
3larisa06$81.28
4LadyVixen17$53.20
5jfharlow4530$42.40
6grigoryan818$31.60
7chas123$20.80
8missie12$14.32
9Chiefbenji$7.84
10Sugnil$4.24
35Chiefer77-$4.40

Sorry Chiefer if it appears that I am always getting at you, but you just seem intent on playing every SnG without taking a single gamble. That is why you aren't winning, and is why you wont win. Don't be so scared to lose!
 
Genso Hikki

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I'm thankful for the last post by robwhufc because my first instinct was this was a call but after reading all the other replies I thought maybe I was an idiot.

There's no way I can fold queens here. If you think I have the best hand, there's no way I'm folding because someone MIGHT have and ace or a king in their hand and they MIGHT hit it. Yes, they opponents could have aces or kings (and as it turns out one of them does) but I still re-raise all in here. If I want to win, I have to be willing to risk my chips here, at least in my humble and not-so-experienced opinion.

If you're not willing to gamble with Queens in this spot, what hand would you be willing to gamble with? Aces only?
 
Chiefer

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I just don't get these threads at all. You don't want to be racing/coin flip when you have the chance of TRIPLING up. You call a 8xBB raise with a previous caller, rather than re-raising, as you don't want to be pot commited with "just" pocket Queens. And everybody seems to agree with you - bet 1/5th of your 2,000 stack, and then fold PRE-flop with the 3rd best hand, because people have played back at you.


I nkow you didn't cash - here's the result from Sharkscope - look at who came 3rd!

1ward84$211.60
2JPAS-Québec$139.60
3larisa06$81.28
4LadyVixen17$53.20
5jfharlow4530$42.40
6grigoryan818$31.60
7chas123$20.80
8missie12$14.32
9Chiefbenji$7.84
10Sugnil$4.24
35Chiefer77-$4.40

Sorry Chiefer if it appears that I am always getting at you, but you just seem intent on playing every SnG without taking a single gamble. That is why you aren't winning, and is why you wont win. Don't be so scared to lose!


well rob, i couldn't care less what sharkscope says, or if you feel like you are getting at me or not. if you want to get at me, please do, you are entitled. no hard feelings. this is the kind of feedback that i need in order to get better. however, you seem intent on gambling and not playing the game. i agree that a player needs to get lucky from time to time to be on the winning side of poker. i get that.

my main concern is whether i played the hand correct or had the proper read on my oponents. i believe i've said this to you before, but my poker prowess is probably not as keen as yours. just recently i have started to take the game pretty seriously and not just for fun, and i am trying to start fresh and basically relearn everything that i thought i knew. perhaps i should have explained that part before i posted that hand.

i am going to stand by my fold. if i'm heads up, i'll call this all day long. but i have two aggressors then even more aggresion after i act, and i feel like i am going to be behind. and yes, i just called the initial raise because if i did get to see the flop, i can get out at the first sign of trouble with enough chips to keep me going.

you keep on gambling, i'll keep on learning, and we'll agree to disagree.
 
Chiefer

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I'm thankful for the last post by robwhufc because my first instinct was this was a call but after reading all the other replies I thought maybe I was an idiot.

There's no way I can fold queens here. If you think I have the best hand, there's no way I'm folding because someone MIGHT have and ace or a king in their hand and they MIGHT hit it. Yes, they opponents could have aces or kings (and as it turns out one of them does) but I still re-raise all in here. If I want to win, I have to be willing to risk my chips here, at least in my humble and not-so-experienced opinion.

If you're not willing to gamble with Queens in this spot, what hand would you be willing to gamble with? Aces only?


i am not a fan of getting all my chips in preflop. ever. i'd like to elaborate on this but i have to go back to work. i'll check back in later.
 
C

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well, it turns out i would have won the hand, but only on two outer on the river.


*** FLOP *** [7h 5h Jh]
*** TURN *** [7h 5h Jh] <font color='red'>A<font face="arial">♦</font></font>
*** RIVER *** [7h 5h Jh Ad] Q♠
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DaveMidd: shows [Ks As] (a pair of Aces)
larisa06: shows [Jd Jc] (three of a kind, Jacks)
larisa06 collected 6295 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6295 | Rake 0
Board [7h 5h Jh Ad Qs]
Seat 1: darren 110 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Chiefer77 (button) folded before Flop
Seat 3: JPAS-Québec (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: DaveMidd (big blind) showed [Ks As] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 5: larisa06 showed [Jd Jc] and won (6295) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 6: Hellas001 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Lobo2304 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: stylishlady3 folded before Flop

No.

You would of gone into the hand as a favourite, and come out as the winner.

If all the money had gone in on the flop/turn then yes, you've won by hitting a 2 outer. But in this case that is certainly not the correct way of viewing this.
 
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