QQ on the button

shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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I feel I made the right decision here, but would like some feedback because the outcome of the board made me sick.

pokerstars Game #10760332461: Tournament #54104841, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/07/04 - 04:08:54 (ET)
Table '54104841 75' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: TiltAgree? (1880 in chips)
Seat 2: MontyBurns18 (1530 in chips)
Seat 3: WILL_WELL (2970 in chips)
Seat 4: xxxx35 (4410 in chips)
Seat 5: 1OldGrunt! (1430 in chips)
Seat 6: Orion469 (1470 in chips)
Seat 7: wzoom2 (1290 in chips)
Seat 8: Scalne (1410 in chips)
Seat 9: PokerBlakeB (1470 in chips)
WILL_WELL: posts small blind 10
xxxx35: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Orion469 [Qc Qd]
1OldGrunt!: calls 20
Orion469: raises 60 to 80
wzoom2: folds
Scalne: calls 80
PokerBlakeB: folds
TiltAgree?: folds
MontyBurns18: folds
WILL_WELL: folds
xxxx35: calls 60
1OldGrunt!: raises 60 to 140
Orion469: calls 60
Scalne: calls 60
xxxx35: raises 4270 to 4410 and is all-in
1OldGrunt!: calls 1290 and is all-in
Orion469: folds
Scalne: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d 7c Jd]
*** TURN *** [7d 7c Jd] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [7d 7c Jd Qh] [4d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
xxxx35: shows [Kh As] (a pair of Sevens)
1OldGrunt!: shows [9h Th] (a pair of Sevens - lower kicker)
xxxx35 collected 3150 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3150 | Rake 0
Board [7d 7c Jd Qh 4d]
Seat 1: TiltAgree? folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: MontyBurns18 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: WILL_WELL (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: xxxx35 (big blind) showed [Kh As] and won (3150) with a pair of Sevens
Seat 5: 1OldGrunt! showed [9h Th] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 6: Orion469 folded before Flop
Seat 7: wzoom2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Scalne folded before Flop
Seat 9: PokerBlakeB folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
Mehman

Mehman

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early in a low buy-in sit and go i would have called, there are only really 2 hands that are beating you pre-flop and it and being a low limit buyin i'd think i was up againest AK knowing the donks and looking at the chip leaders stack in the first level he would be a more loose aggressive player to get to that stack size and even if i am beaten or suck out, it's only the first level i have at little better then a coin flip at tripling up and if i suck out i've wasted less then 15 minutes and i go onto the next SnG, So yeah i would have called but can understand why you folded.
 
J

joeeagles

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I think I'd end up folding this too Shine, and getting sick just you did. The reason I'd fold is because the move made by 1oldgrunt, who first limped UTG then reraised, is done by a lot of players with AA, KK. Sort of a fancy play that you see many times. His raise was a minraise, but still it gives that feeling. I saw that you called it which I would have done also because it was a minraise and odds are correct to see a flop even if he has aces or kings, but when the other guy shoves back and 1oldgrunt calls it now I'd end up folding too.

It turns out folding was the wrong play, thanks to that donk (1oldgrunt), since you were ahead in the hand. You're just a victim of stupid plays made by others, nothing you can do about it. I don't really know if the fold is correct, I'll let others judge that, all I can say is I would've done it too.
 
t1riel

t1riel

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When you are facing two all ins with pocket queens, your odds of winning are very low. In addition, it's in the early stages of a tournament so a suckout is likely. If it was one all in, I would probably call.
 
I

IVEverLow

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This may be one of my problems but I would have instacalled
 
S

SurreyMonkey

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Hi Shinedown,

Agree with Mehman on this.

IMHO $3.00 SnG makes this an easy call in my mind. Only two hands who can have you beat pocket K or A, which would be very unlucky to come up against this early in the tournie.

I tend to play SnGs around this level since they suit my bankroll, and many times you see people heading all in early on with A K , AQ or AJ. To be honest even a few K Q will do it.

Without notes on a player this is an instacall every time for me at this level.

How did the rest of the tournie go? :smile:

Ken
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

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I think everybody knows what I would do.
 
HartAttack3

HartAttack3

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no way could I fold this especially at the 3 dollar level. Bigger tournies maybe not but I really couldnt live with myself folding queens in that position as much as I hate them
 
titans4ever

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Hi Shinedown,

Agree with Mehman on this.

IMHO $3.00 SnG makes this CRAP an easy call in my mind. Only two hands who can have you beat pocket K or A, which would be very unlucky to come up against this early in the tournie.

I tend to play SnGs around this level since they suit my bankroll, and many times you see people heading all in early on with A K , AQ or AJ. To be honest even a few K Q will do it.

Without notes on a player this is an instacall every time for me at this level.

How did the rest of the tournie go? :smile:

Ken

early in a low buy-in sit and go i would have called CRAP, there are only really 2 hands that are beating you pre-flop and it and being a low limit buyin i'd think i was up againest AK knowing the donks and looking at the chip leaders stack in the first level he would be a more loose aggressive player to get to that stack size and even if i am beaten or suck out, it's only the first level i have at little better then a coin flip at tripling up and if i suck out i've wasted less then 15 minutes and i go onto the next SnG, So yeah i would have called but can understand why you folded.

no way could I fold this especially at the 3 dollar level.CRAP Bigger tournies maybe not but I really couldnt live with myself folding queens in that position as much as I hate them

What does the level of play have to do with it? I hate any answer premised with that. Just because you will only lose your 3 dollars doesn't make a call the RIGHT move. You all will easily haved to risk you whole tournament life on a 50/50 draw on the first level? No way, with two callers is this the right poker move. You win no tournament at the first level but you sure can lose them in a hurry. I think the you made the right move based on you just calling the first raise and the action after you. I don't care what level you are playing.

I personally would have reriased the 140 bet to get a better understanding of where I am. You might not have had the one push all-in with a raise and reraise in front of him. He may have just called and you could have seen that flop.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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It's easy now knowing what he had, but the big bet from xxxx35, that's a player with a hand that he hasn't got the ability to play pre-flop and make tricky decisions - I've said it before, i'd expect to see JJ, QQ or AK here (in a Cardschat game you could drop this down to 88 or maybe even 66). AA and KK tend to be played a bit cuter. The 1oldGrunt character, the 60 raise is nothing, no-one was going to fold - i couldn't really guess what he had, but another Ax hand would be great for you.

I'd fold QQ (and I have in the past) if a player is playing a hand like it cant be behind, but i dont see that here so i'd have called.

FP said ages ago (and I agree) that poker isn't just an investment of money, it's an investment of time - if you're not going to cash, the best time to bust out is early, so take a shot, and just play again if you lose (dont do this too loosely of course, but if you're going to take a chance, do it early).
 
HartAttack3

HartAttack3

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to me if it costs me 3 dollars to learn this experience i would do it. I can now see if I make the right reads if I call. Thats why it matters, in a 50+5 or whatever I would have to debate it, see how my cards are runnin and if I think its a good hand to get knocked out on (which I think it is as long as my gut instinct thinks they have aces or kings for some reason).
 
S

SurreyMonkey

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I can see your line of thinking Titan4Ever, but I still disagree. I'm not saying call because its only $3.00. I'm saying call because at that level people go all in with basically everything. This is again looking at the very first hand or two, and not in the middle of the tournie.

In 99% of games, SnG, ring games etc. (any reasonable poker) tournie your method of thinking is correct,and I would play as you said.

In $3.00 SnG your an odds on favorite to win with QQ, and you can guess that the other player(s) have smaller pairs or A x.

My experience of online poker is still at this level so I wouldn't begin to comment on how to play the $10 up SnGs.

K

p.s. love the "What would Jesus do?" icon :)
 
dj11

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Level one.

Hard hand to fold no doubt, but I too would have folded. Someone is trying to represent a 7, and since my strategy is survival, I'm gone from this hand.

Both players get fresh notes, and I know they will most likely (90-95% sure) be gone soon...
 
edge-t

edge-t

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I would have folded. 2 all-ins PF? The ladies can't stand that kind of action.
 
bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

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robwhufc;569300 [COLOR=red said:
FP said ages ago (and I agree) that poker isn't just an investment of money, it's an investment of time - if you're not going to cash, the best time to bust out is early, so take a shot, and just play again if you lose (dont do this too loosely of course, but if you're going to take a chance, do it early)[/COLOR].


Bingo! Again it comes down to what are you waiting for? You have one of the top hands. Are you waiting for As? And what happens if you go card dead for the next 150 hands?
Poker is a lot about siezing the moment. You get dealt Qs you go for it. And if you lose, well you go to the next tourney.
 
Y

young hova

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early in a low buy-in sit and go i would have called, there are only really 2 hands that are beating you pre-flop and it and being a low limit buyin i'd think i was up againest AK knowing the donks and looking at the chip leaders stack in the first level he would be a more loose aggressive player to get to that stack size and even if i am beaten or suck out, it's only the first level i have at little better then a coin flip at tripling up and if i suck out i've wasted less then 15 minutes and i go onto the next SnG, So yeah i would have called but can understand why you folded.
For the most part I agree with this, but heres why its going to be me hard for me to fold:

after you raise, (I would've raised 100 to make it 120 to go, I think the situation might have been different if you did that) Old grunt has 2 other callers to the raise making it 3 players in the hand outside of him when it gets back to him. If he has aces or kings preflop he's not going to price everyone into play, he's going to try to protect his hand (unless he is an idiot). If OldGrunt REALLY IS deceptive enough to limp utg and reraise with aces or kings, than AT THE SAME TIME I think you have to give him credit to be smarter to know to raise much bigger than 60 more to get players out of the hand and isolate one player -- These two basically go hand in hand. If Old grunt has aces in this hand than I can't be mad at myself because he played them idiotically, and even though people do that with aces or kings for the most part even donks are much more aggressive preflop with these hands.

On top of that his raise looks like a raise where he's trying to keep players in the pot hoping that he flops a monster, but giving him slight control even if he doesn't. Suited connectors can fit this description, and good overcards too is what I usually see. I wouldn't have guessed 9 10 suited but it makes sense.

Now at this point the only real hand im worried about is xxxx35's. All i'm really worried about is AA or KK, I'm willing to take my chance with overcard race here. Now I can't put xxxx35 on aces or kings, because after you raised, SCALNE CALLS. Now I could understand if it was folded to him and he calls with aces or kings trying to be deceptive, I don't think its logical for him to simply call with you and scalne guaranteed to be in a raised pot with aces or kings still with old grunt to act. With this hand I think he's going to/has to raise, otherwise he's taking a huge risk himself here preflop with the dominant hand, out of position at that.

Now with this in mind, when xxxx35 goes all in, I think to myself what type of hands would just flat call a raise but randomly go all in over top of a reraise with big stack. My range of hands for him is AK AQ (AJ if he's stupid), and pp 77-jj for the most part, I think he's got ak aq or 88-1010, thinking that he's willing to race. The fact that old grunt calls doesn't really effect my decision here, because if I was actually in the hand, I'd put him on the same range of hands as xxxx35, with a slightly less chance of him having a pp than xxxx35 (I think he might raise bigger with a pocketpair 77-jj).

If they have aq and ak (or even ak vs ak) this is good because they are taking each other's outs to win the hand and improving my chances. In the event they both have pocket pairs most likely you'll have them dominated. If one has over cards and one has an under pair than I personally welcome this action also in this particular situation. Not to mention, its not guaranteed that someone will turn over AK for two overcards. Regardless, there is no way I can give either of them AA or KK, if they've got it they played it bad and they've fooled me, but I wouldnt be mad at them. I'd take the notes on em and it is what it is.

Remember, in these types of situations, QQ is MUCH different than 1010 and jj. Your looking at only 2 over cards compared 4 and 3 overcards respectively. Many of times both of them will turn over AX and for the most part you will RARELY see both players turn over AK, and essentially AK is the only hand that can worry you in this particular situation. It becomes much different with JJ, especially 10 10, those are the hands in this situation where I know I probably have the best hand but don't want to risk it considering the chances that both players together could have all of the over cards covered because if they do your basically screwed, ESPECIALLY if you have 10 10.
 
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drgilbert4

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You were probably right to fold, but I would have tripled up!!! I could never fold queens preflop in a 3 buck sng.. now in a $100... that's a different story. That being said, folding in that situation is not a bad move. You folded preflop after 2 opponents went all in. You have to believe that at least one of them hit a big pair..Jacks, Kings, or aces, and the other should have an ace and a face (AK, AJ, or AQ). In this situation, odds are one of them would beat your queens by the river... But like I said, my dumb ass would have moved in like a sheep and (in this hand at least) would have been lucky! At any rate... great fold. You are a disciplined player.
 
titans4ever

titans4ever

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Suprised nobody has said the obvious. Only two hands have you dominated AA and KK and you will only win against those about 20% of the time. AK is the only other hand that would make you slightly under 50% chance to win this had 3 way and that is only if the other player has a smaller pocket pair than your QQ. AK and the other has Ax or Kx and now you are back over 50% to win the hand. EVERYTHING else that you might face puts you up over a 50% chance to win.

You are getting 2 to 1 on your money for a situation that you are more than likely around 50%+ chance to win. The only problem is donkeys get AA and KK early in tournaments too. I really can see going either way.
 
bubbasbestbabe

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The only problem is donkeys get AA and KK early in tournaments too. I really can see going either way.

Then if this frightens you I would suggest another type of game.;)
 
titans4ever

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Then if this frightens you I would suggest another type of game.;)

I am just saying that nobody earlier was willing to give at least one of them credit for a good hand. Big PP vs big PP happens at times. I have lost in the first 3 hands of a tournament more than once with KK or QQ vs AA.

Coin flips don't scare me. Just saying that more than likely you are looking at a 60/40 to 50/50 for all your money in the first blind level. There is a slight chance that one of them could have AA or KK and you are down to 20% chance to win. It could be reversed and they both have underpairs so you have a total of 4 outs drawing against you so you have a 65ish% chance to win.

Just how lucky are you feeling today? I don't like coin flips, especially early. You have the right odds to make this call unless one of them has AA or KK. It happens. Ask Jamie Gold, he did it 2 or 3 times at the final table last year at the wsop. Twice someone with JJ goes all-in and he finds QQ.
 
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J

joeeagles

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Then if this frightens you I would suggest another type of game.;)


Hmm, Sorry BBB but I can't agree with this.

There are times when laying down Q's PF is the right move, w/o any doubt, and I can make some examples where folding them is the correct play. Granted, it doesn't happen many times but there are situations where it's justified. You can argue that perhaps this wasn't one of those cases, but in any case it's not a clear cut answer, regardless of result.

There are many answers on this thread that are kind of puzzling, like the argument "I can't fold QQ in a $3 sitngo". As mentioned by Titans in his 1st post, you need to explain why you think it's the best poker move, and not that you'd do it because its a $3 buy-in.

At least young hova tried that, agree or not with his thoughts.
 
Effexor

Effexor

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I am just saying that nobody earlier was willing to give at least one of them credit for a good hand. Big PP vs big PP happens at times. I have lost in the first 3 hands of a tournament more than once with KK or QQ vs AA.

Coin flips don't scare me. Just saying that more than likely you are looking at a 60/40 to 50/50 for all your money in the first blind level. There is a slight chance that one of them could have AA or KK and you are down to 20% chance to win. It could be reversed and they both have underpairs so you have a total of 4 outs drawing against you so you have a 65ish% chance to win.

Just how lucky are you feeling today? I don't like coin flips, especially early. You have the right odds to make this call unless one of them has AA or KK. It happens. Ask Jamie Gold, he did it 2 or 3 times at the final table last year at the WSOP. Twice someone with JJ goes all-in and he finds QQ.

What are all those links in your post?
 
titans4ever

titans4ever

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No clue why they are there. I did not add them when I typed it in so I wouldn't follow any.

I tried toremove them from my post, maybe you should from your quote. Don't need any more crap and spyware form computers than we need.

I can't seem to remove them. GRRRRRRR. What is up with that?
 
S

stat032

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with those guys going AI like that i dotn see how there is anyway you can call with QQ.
 
Black_Fox

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PokerStars Game #10760332461: Tournament #54104841, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/07/04 - 04:08:54 (ET)
Table '54104841 75' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: TiltAgree? (1880 in chips)
Seat 2: MontyBurns18 (1530 in chips)
Seat 3: WILL_WELL (2970 in chips)
Seat 4: xxxx35 (4410 in chips)
Seat 5: 1OldGrunt! (1430 in chips)
Seat 6: Orion469 (1470 in chips)
Seat 7: wzoom2 (1290 in chips)
Seat 8: Scalne (1410 in chips)
Seat 9: PokerBlakeB (1470 in chips)
WILL_WELL: posts small blind 10
xxxx35: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Orion469 [Qc Qd]
1OldGrunt!: calls 20
Orion469: raises 60 to 80
wzoom2: folds
Scalne: calls 80
PokerBlakeB: folds
TiltAgree?: folds
MontyBurns18: folds
WILL_WELL: folds
xxxx35: calls 60
1OldGrunt!: raises 60 to 140
Orion469: calls 60
Scalne: calls 60
xxxx35: raises 4270 to 4410 and is all-in
1OldGrunt!: calls 1290 and is all-in
Orion469: folds
Scalne: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d 7c Jd]
*** TURN *** [7d 7c Jd] Q♥
*** RIVER *** [7d 7c Jd Qh] 4♦
*** SHOW DOWN ***
xxxx35: shows [Kh As] (a pair of Sevens)
1OldGrunt!: shows [9h Th] (a pair of Sevens - lower kicker)
xxxx35 collected 3150 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3150 | Rake 0
Board [7d 7c Jd Qh 4d]
Seat 1: TiltAgree? folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: MontyBurns18 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: WILL_WELL (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: xxxx35 (big blind) showed [Kh As] and won (3150) with a pair of Sevens
Seat 5: 1OldGrunt! showed [9h Th] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 6: Orion469 folded before Flop
Seat 7: wzoom2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Scalne folded before Flop
Seat 9: PokerBlakeB folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I don't understand this? You went all-in pre flop with QQ. Made a boat on the turn and ended up losing with 10-9s? What happened to the Queens??? Did they just dissapear mid hand?

I'm confused.

BF
 
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