[Play$]2000 NLHE STT: I'm never folding.....

[CupOfSalt]

No guys, it's tournament play money. My HUD does the conversion.


I'm not so sure I agree with "playing play money is a bad habit". I play regularly on sundays at a private game live. I'm a regular player, but can't play online because I'm in the US (NY). I'm also a dealer and have seen thousands of thousands of hands live. My edge is live, admittedly. I'm not that profitable online. I agree that this call was questionable pre flop, but what I meant was once I hit the flop like that, I'm never folding.

I use play money as a way to learn how to deal with crappy players and maniacs... because that's essentially what most play money players are. One of my biggest weaknesses in my game is dealing with players who play like complete maniacs. There are a few of them in my regular private game. I strongly believe that if you can do well consistently at play money games then you can crush live low NL games.

Anyways... yeah like I said. Questionable call pre flop, what I meant was I'm never folding on the flop.

Actually upon 2nd review....


Given UTG and my stack sizes, I don't mind my call pre flop.

I think HIS mistake was not shoving pre flop.. Therefore I took advantage of that by calling and seeing a flop.

I remember that I essentially looked at the BB shove short stack all-in as dead money once the UTG flatted it. I was playing against him at that point.

In fact, now that I'm thinking about it.... He really should have shoved with JJ. I would have 100% folded. A5x against JJ pre isn't even that bad (stats). With the extra dead money, I'm getting a great price. I really don't think it was a bad call given that he flatted and didn't shove....

Am I wrong? If so, please explain...

 

[WVHillbilly]

Actually upon 2nd review....


Given UTG and my stack sizes, I don't mind my call pre flop.

I think HIS mistake was not shoving pre flop.. Therefore I took advantage of that by calling and seeing a flop.

I remember that I essentially looked at the BB shove short stack all-in as dead money once the UTG flatted it. I was playing against him at that point.

In fact, now that I'm thinking about it.... He really should have shoved with JJ. I would have 100% folded. A5x against JJ pre isn't even that bad (stats). With the extra dead money, I'm getting a great price. I really don't think it was a bad call given that he flatted and didn't shove....

Am I wrong? If so, please explain...

There is a major flaw in you're thinking. It's critical to understand if you ever want to play winning poker. You don't know your opponent has JJ. He has a range and a ton of it has your Ace dominated. So when you hit TP you're still going to lose against his entire 3bet preflop range.

This also highlights my point against play money. You can't really accurately learn to range difference types of players when 90% of the players you're against ranges are basically any 2 cards because it's play money.

 

[Lucothefish]

Cupofsalt you mentioned stack sizes, dead money and pot odds/equity in that post, you're probably waayyyyy ahead of the curve at the play money tables.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Cupofsalt you mentioned stack sizes, dead money and pot odds/equity in that post, you're probably waayyyyy ahead of the curve at the play money tables.

Totally agree with this too. Didn't realize you were from NY though. I don't know what if any options you have for depositing.

 

[WiZZiM]

Actually upon 2nd review....


Given UTG and my stack sizes, I don't mind my call pre flop.

I think HIS mistake was not shoving pre flop.. Therefore I took advantage of that by calling and seeing a flop.

I remember that I essentially looked at the BB shove short stack all-in as dead money once the UTG flatted it. I was playing against him at that point.

In fact, now that I'm thinking about it.... He really should have shoved with JJ. I would have 100% folded. A5x against JJ pre isn't even that bad (stats). With the extra dead money, I'm getting a great price. I really don't think it was a bad call given that he flatted and didn't shove....

Am I wrong? If so, please explain...

reverse implied odds. read up.

 

[dj11]

No guys, it's tournament play money. My HUD does the conversion.

Thanks for that clarification, I was too lazy to see how PT4 converts.

 

[ph_il]

Actually upon 2nd review....


Given UTG and my stack sizes, I don't mind my call pre flop.

I think HIS mistake was not shoving pre flop.. Therefore I took advantage of that by calling and seeing a flop.

I remember that I essentially looked at the BB shove short stack all-in as dead money once the UTG flatted it. I was playing against him at that point.

In fact, now that I'm thinking about it.... He really should have shoved with JJ. I would have 100% folded. A5x against JJ pre isn't even that bad (stats). With the extra dead money, I'm getting a great price. I really don't think it was a bad call given that he flatted and didn't shove....

Am I wrong? If so, please explain...

To add to wizzim's reading suggestion, look up the gap concept as well.

Some notes:

-I can't think of an example where flat calling 28 BBs is ever a good play. If you can think of one, please let me know.

-Why would UTG shove 100+ BBs with JJ? Their flat is fine and is less than a mistake than your flat call with A5o. Again, read up on gap concept.

-BB is not short stack with 33 BBs. Short stack refers to stack vs blinds, not stack vs stack.

-Again, UTG should not have to shove JJ for 100+ BBs to get you to fold. The action before you and your hand strength is enough for you to fold. What exactly are you beating here? What hand range is BB and UTG shoving/calling for 33 BBs?

-A5o vs JJ is only winning 30% of the time.

-No, you aren't getting a good price for anything. Yes, it was a bad call regardless if UTG called or shoved. In fact, it's a terrible call if UTG folded. Again, I cannot think of an example where calling 28 BBs (you raised 5 BBs preflop) is a good play. Especially not with a hand like A5o.

 

[WiZZiM]

that's where the math is funny, it seems like it's a good price, "oh i'm getting 3 : 1 on a call here, so i call".

but it's 3:1 on a call factored in with our hand vs his RANGE of hands. vs 2 players our hand equity would drop here to roughly 20-25% at most, and we still have to play it postflop. That 3:1 figure also does not represent how much the 1 part is worth to us. I see it all the time on forums where people jusitfy things based on pot odds without actually knowing what they are talking about. Plus we have to factor in the times when we completely miss the flop and we're forced to fold our equity. So logically this call makes no sense at all.

 

[Foldemz]

that's where the math is funny, it seems like it's a good price, "oh i'm getting 3 : 1 on a call here, so i call".

but it's 3:1 on a call factored in with our hand vs his RANGE of hands. vs 2 players our hand equity would drop here to roughly 20-25% at most, and we still have to play it postflop. That 3:1 figure also does not represent how much the 1 part is worth to us. I see it all the time on forums where people jusitfy things based on pot odds without actually knowing what they are talking about. Plus we have to factor in the times when we completely miss the flop and we're forced to fold our equity. So logically this call makes no sense at all.

That's a good point also.

Actually upon 2nd review....


Given UTG and my stack sizes, I don't mind my call pre flop.

I think HIS mistake was not shoving pre flop.. Therefore I took advantage of that by calling and seeing a flop.

I remember that I essentially looked at the BB shove short stack all-in as dead money once the UTG flatted it. I was playing against him at that point.

In fact, now that I'm thinking about it.... He really should have shoved with JJ. I would have 100% folded. A5x against JJ pre isn't even that bad (stats). With the extra dead money, I'm getting a great price. I really don't think it was a bad call given that he flatted and didn't shove....

Am I wrong? If so, please explain...

I do think he should have probably tried to isolate with his JJ just in case overs hit and it puts him in a weird spot. But I think the call with A5 is a bigger mistake. You were never really even getting that great of a price.

You really have to take the UTG limp flat-a-shove into consideration here. Even if you were getting a good price I think it's a mistake against the range of hands your opponent could be holding.


I really like this post though. Asking questions and reviewing these types of hands will ultimately have a positive impact on your game.

 

[CupOfSalt]

That's a good point also.



I do think he should have probably tried to isolate with his JJ just in case overs hit and it puts him in a weird spot. But I think the call with A5 is a bigger mistake. You were never really even getting that great of a price.

You really have to take the UTG limp flat-a-shove into consideration here. Even if you were getting a good price I think it's a mistake against the range of hands your opponent could be holding.


I really like this post though. Asking questions and reviewing these types of hands will ultimately have a positive impact on your game.

See this is the problem... Me, being a mostly live player (like I stated earlier), and all of this theoretical strategic analysis ASSUMES that the people we are playing against is a near perfect player... and that's just NOT THE CASE most of the time (in at least the stakes I play - 1/3, 2/5, and 5/5 for cash and same players with tournaments live).

When I see something odd like that happen (just a flat of an all-in.... given stack sizes and ICM) - I'm going to call and see a flop - especially given the size of the stack that I had and the villain had in this particular situation.

Like I said, in theoretical strategic perfect poker, this may be wrong - but almost NO ONE plays perfect poker. Which is why when I get a feeling, I play it (as I said, I'm a dealer and have seen thousands and thousands of live hands. Look at my avatar... I've been a televised dealer.... (seriously.) Sometimes I just have a feeling and can't explain why I have it - and I usually amount it to my subconscious just reminding me of a previous hand I've seen).

 

[WVHillbilly]

See this is the problem... Me, being a mostly live player (like I stated earlier), and all of this theoretical strategic analysis ASSUMES that the people we are playing against is a near perfect player... and that's just NOT THE CASE most of the time (in at least the stakes I play - 1/3, 2/5, and 5/5 for cash and same players with tournaments live).

When I see something odd like that happen (just a flat of an all-in.... given stack sizes and ICM) - I'm going to call and see a flop - especially given the size of the stack that I had and the villain had in this particular situation.

Like I said, in theoretical strategic perfect poker, this may be wrong - but almost NO ONE plays perfect poker. Which is why when I get a feeling, I play it (as I said, I'm a dealer and have seen thousands and thousands of live hands. Look at my avatar... I've been a televised dealer.... (seriously.) Sometimes I just have a feeling and can't explain why I have it - and I usually amount it to my subconscious just reminding me of a previous hand I've seen).

Well in that case you already know everything you need to win. No further analysis is needed. With perfect intuition like yours I expect will all know your name soon enough and we can say we knew you when you were playing play money!

BTW, almost every dealer I have ever played with was fairly terrible at actual poker so it's refreshing to finally meet a poker mind like yours. Congrats man!

 

[WiZZiM]

oh jesus, i'm out. lol.

 

[CupOfSalt]

Well in that case you already know everything you need to win. No further analysis is needed. With perfect intuition like yours I expect will all know your name soon enough and we can say we knew you when you were playing play money!

BTW, almost every dealer I have ever played with was fairly terrible at actual poker so it's refreshing to finally meet a poker mind like yours. Congrats man!

LOL come on man....

 

[Poker Orifice]

LOL come on man....

they tried... Seriously. They actually tried. I don't know why... but they did.

 

[CupOfSalt]

they tried... Seriously. They actually tried. I don't know why... but they did.

Whatever. Never said I had 'perfect intuition' - that's ridiculous. All I'm saying is that this "theoretical strategic play" assumes your opponent plays a certain, straight way. And most of the time (at least in non professional limits) - they don't.

 

[ConDeck]

Whatever. Never said I had 'perfect intuition' - that's ridiculous. All I'm saying is that this "theoretical strategic play" assumes your opponent plays a certain, straight way. And most of the time (at least in non professional limits) - they don't.

And like your other thread, your perception and outlook on poker is wrong and you will not be a profitable player long term if you do not develop a greater understanding of the concepts the people above have tried explaining to you and of poker in general...

Sure your entitled to your opinion, but your opinion has been disproven again and again and again.... Kinda like still believeing the world is flat....

 

[CupOfSalt]

And like your other thread, your perception and outlook on poker is wrong and you will not be a profitable player long term if you do not develop a greater understanding of the concepts the people above have tried explaining to you and of poker in general...

Sure your entitled to your opinion, but your opinion has been disproven again and again and again.... Kinda like still believeing the world is flat....

I don't want to be an ass but this is based on what... regurgitated information or experience?


Whatever.... Maybe you are correct....

 

[WiZZiM]

Nothing has been proven in this thread, it's a mix of regurgitate info and exp, but that is the same for everyone. We all get info from somewhere, learn from somewhere, be it a book/video/other player/watching players, then we mix it in with our exp at the tables to form our views on poker.

But saying things like playing optimally doesnt work vs bad players is just completely wrong. Just from a pure english point of view, playing optimally means that we play the hand in the best or most profitable way possible for ourselves. I might not be able to make as much money in a lot of spots like Phil ivey does, but i can still make the most optimal decision, and it does not matter who i'm playing against.

So quick example, i have a choice between two bad options...

1. walk out in front of moving traffic.

2. place my penis in a toaster and turn it on.

whatever the best decision for me at the time is the most "optimal" decision. it doesn't matter if the options change, or the opponant changes, we just factor in everything like we do for every other deicion and make the most optimal one we can. that is poker... call it intuition/theory/abc poker whatever, it's all the same, or a differant way to go about it. some bad, some good.

So i get what you are saying, but the wording is just completely wrong. Also you seem to think all online players are stagnant ABC players who are incapable of adjsuting, and i think you have a point, however game theory helps ALOT in online poker, it enables you to play many more tables without thinking about it too much..

So we all have points here imo, it's just really hard to prove or enforce your point without writing a concise essay of a few hundred pages with examples to get your point across.

anyways hope this helps.

 

[WiZZiM]

if you would like me to post a few example hands and my thought processes to illustrate my point about playing vs good and bad players i'm quite happy to, just let me know. But it will be tommorow sometimes it's late here.