shinedown.45
Legend
Silver Level
IMO, at the low level your at it has been my experience that alot of the players are loose at this level and tend to raise any face card with a ten or higher preflop.
I'd say that you're ahead here so a pot sized bet or higher is in order.
I'd say that you're ahead here so a pot sized bet or higher is in order.
M
myxiplx
Rock Star
Silver Level
Bet pot.
You're only making money out of this pot if someone has a K with a good kicker, and you've got to guard against draws. JQ is a concern, but then so is KT. Bet out & build the pot, but be cautious if anybody looks like they have a monster.
Two pair is my favourite hand for donating money to others... I'm still aggressive with it, but with a caller here I'd be thinking of calling to the river.
You're only making money out of this pot if someone has a K with a good kicker, and you've got to guard against draws. JQ is a concern, but then so is KT. Bet out & build the pot, but be cautious if anybody looks like they have a monster.
Two pair is my favourite hand for donating money to others... I'm still aggressive with it, but with a caller here I'd be thinking of calling to the river.
shinedown.45
Legend
Silver Level
I wold also like to add that seeing no-one had raise pre-flop its safe to say that there are low-mid suited connectors and maybe J-9 and Q-10 suited.
tenbob
Legend
Silver Level
For those who are interested, I overbet the pot to make it 1200. I was scared of any straight chasers since they limped in preflop. Everyone folded and I won the pot.
You WANT straight chasers Tim, you need to bet the pot to make it a mistake for them to call. Betting 1200 only gives odds for a made hand to re-shove against you, and will almost certainly make all the drawing hands fold. Idealy here you would get one caller, pot the turn to a safe card which will be most of the time, and hopefully he will make a further mistake by calling.
Edit: Considering the limits, i could see the case for betting 600, but 1200 ? Nah, bad bet.
t1riel
Legend
Silver Level
Looking back on this hand, I realized that 1200 was too big of a bet in this situation. But, I rather win a small pot than lose a big pot by getting outdrawn.
tenbob
Legend
Silver Level
Tim, sorry I dont understand your logic. Its flawed totally as far as I can see it. I think you need to explain it to me. Betting 1,200 "could" be seen as a total bluff, granted , but how do you expect to win pots ? Its the many small ones coupled with the few big pots usually caused by you opponents drawing with incorrect odds that build big pots.
What do you do with AA heads-up, shove all in ? In case someone hits 2 pair ? Bet 1233xBB with the nut flush in case someone improves on their set ?
t1riel
Legend
Silver Level
Basically, I don't slowplay two pair or trips unless there are no straight or flush draws. Betting the pot usually doesn't scare away many straight and flush chasers. The chasers may be thinking "yeah, he has something now, but all I need is (whatever card)." If they think I have nothing if I overbet the pot, they probably won't call anyway since they have low pair at best. They certainly won't call it if they have a flush or straight draw (unless it's a freeroll).
Heads up is a different animal tenbob. You only have to worry about one player and the odds having the cards you fear he/she has are slim. In heads up, top pair, great kicker is a good hand to slowplay.
What exactly are you saying? Was it wrong to overbet or was it wrong for me saying I shouldn't have overbet? My intention was to overbet the pot but I aimed a litle high. I probably should have bet 700-900 range.
I'm not angry or aggravated. I'm just a little confused on what you're getting at...
Dorkus Malorkus
HELLO INTERNET
Silver Level
1) Fold K9o UTG preflop.
2) Liam is right, your logic is flawed. You want someone who is chasing a longshot (or even a reasonable) draw to call as long as you bet enough to not give them odds. Now sure, a 3*pot bet isn't giving anyone with a draw odds to call, but bet sizing is all about compromise. You want to bet an amount so that people with draws may call, but will be incorrect in doing so because they don't have odds to. A 3/4 pot to pot bet will acheive this. Hugely overbetting like this is simply not giving your opponent(s) the opportunity to make a mistake that you could have 'forced' (if they're a donk) them into.
The overbet is only really useful in highly specialised situations, where you have created a certain table image and have a specific read on your opponent(s). This isn't one of those situations.
2) Liam is right, your logic is flawed. You want someone who is chasing a longshot (or even a reasonable) draw to call as long as you bet enough to not give them odds. Now sure, a 3*pot bet isn't giving anyone with a draw odds to call, but bet sizing is all about compromise. You want to bet an amount so that people with draws may call, but will be incorrect in doing so because they don't have odds to. A 3/4 pot to pot bet will acheive this. Hugely overbetting like this is simply not giving your opponent(s) the opportunity to make a mistake that you could have 'forced' (if they're a donk) them into.
The overbet is only really useful in highly specialised situations, where you have created a certain table image and have a specific read on your opponent(s). This isn't one of those situations.
tenbob
Legend
Silver Level
Tim, the HU examples were an over the top example of the concept im attempting to explain.
Potting into a limped field is certainly no slow play, id actually call that playing fast, it gives you enough information about where you stand, you should be wary of re-raises and welcome any calls.
I certainly wouldnt be happy if i played this hand the way you advocate and get no callers, I WANT someone to pay over the odds to chase that straight, betting 200 here would be incorrect, but betting 4-600 is ideal. Unless you get you opposition to pay over the odds for their draws you wont make money playing poker. The amount you win opposed to the amount you lose makes the difference.
Now there is also another few things about your bet that make me feel uncomfortable.
You bet in 1,200 and get a caller or two, you only have 1 bet to make on the river, regardless of the turn card.
You bet in 1,200 and get check-raised by the small blind, what you do ? A 400 bet will leave you in a much better position to make a decision without committing yourself to the pot.
You bet 1,200 get called by the button and check-raised by the small blind, what do you do ?
This is the problem with playing out of position, you have very little information about where you stand in the hand, and the main reason you should only come in for raises UTG with strong cards. So K-9 is a pretty standard UTG fold, and a huge leak in your game if you think otherwise.
Oh and what Chris said
Nice thread in the end of the day tho, and something you should fix fairly rapid.
Potting into a limped field is certainly no slow play, id actually call that playing fast, it gives you enough information about where you stand, you should be wary of re-raises and welcome any calls.
I certainly wouldnt be happy if i played this hand the way you advocate and get no callers, I WANT someone to pay over the odds to chase that straight, betting 200 here would be incorrect, but betting 4-600 is ideal. Unless you get you opposition to pay over the odds for their draws you wont make money playing poker. The amount you win opposed to the amount you lose makes the difference.
Now there is also another few things about your bet that make me feel uncomfortable.
You bet in 1,200 and get a caller or two, you only have 1 bet to make on the river, regardless of the turn card.
You bet in 1,200 and get check-raised by the small blind, what you do ? A 400 bet will leave you in a much better position to make a decision without committing yourself to the pot.
You bet 1,200 get called by the button and check-raised by the small blind, what do you do ?
This is the problem with playing out of position, you have very little information about where you stand in the hand, and the main reason you should only come in for raises UTG with strong cards. So K-9 is a pretty standard UTG fold, and a huge leak in your game if you think otherwise.
Oh and what Chris said
Nice thread in the end of the day tho, and something you should fix fairly rapid.
M
myxiplx
Rock Star
Silver Level
Ok, I like the concept of taking down the pot now. You're in a tournament situation and the safe route works for me.
However I'm not sure about 1,200 as an amount, I don't think it folds much a pot bet wouldn't, and you're risking a lot more chips if someone does have an overcard. I don't even think it makes your decisions on later streets much easier as an aggressive player may call the overbet with a weak K, or even push into you.
The one advantage it does have is that doing this regularly is likely to encourage some looser calls from your opponents... I have made a tidy profit from being over-aggressive in the past.
However I'm not sure about 1,200 as an amount, I don't think it folds much a pot bet wouldn't, and you're risking a lot more chips if someone does have an overcard. I don't even think it makes your decisions on later streets much easier as an aggressive player may call the overbet with a weak K, or even push into you.
The one advantage it does have is that doing this regularly is likely to encourage some looser calls from your opponents... I have made a tidy profit from being over-aggressive in the past.
t1riel
Legend
Silver Level
Let's say I do just bet 500 and everyone calls. The turn is Js. Now what?
Thanks. We need more threads this. I haven't talked this much about poker due to a single hand analysis in quite a long time.
F
Freakakanus
Legend
Silver Level
Let's say I do just bet 500 and everyone calls. The turn is Js. Now what?
Thanks. We need more threads this. I haven't talked this much about poker due to a single hand analysis in quite a long time.
Bet another 750 and wait to see if you get reraised? Then see if the odds make it suitable to chase the full boat?
I doubt this is the right strategy but I thought I'd throw it out there to get ripped apart.
Dorkus Malorkus
HELLO INTERNET
Silver Level
Step 1 - You kick yourself for playing K9o UTG preflop.
Step 2 - You realise one of the 4 other players in the hand almost certainly now has you beat (was either slowplaying a better hand on the flop or hit his straight) and you check-fold. If there's only one or even two players left you can definitely bet-fold the turn, but with four someone invariably has to have something that beats you, so I just check-fold.
You're entirely missing the point, though. Most of the time (a) all 4 players aren't going to call a 3/4 pot to pot-sized bet (let alone an overbet), and (b) even if one or two of them do call they are going to miss their draws and have to commit even more chips without odds or fold the turn when you lead.
tenbob
Legend
Silver Level
I agree with lots of what Chris said.
But again, i bolded the last part of my last post, your out of position, any of your opponents can now beat you with 32o. Why ? Because they have position on you, you cant possibly call a decent sized bet if you check.
Youve gotta check-fold, even though i prefer bet fold, Bet folding at least gives you the chance that your opponent might fold.
This thread= about 2 things
1) THE IMPORTANCE OF POSITION
2) How to size you bets
^^^^^^^ In that importance.
But again, i bolded the last part of my last post, your out of position, any of your opponents can now beat you with 32o. Why ? Because they have position on you, you cant possibly call a decent sized bet if you check.
Youve gotta check-fold, even though i prefer bet fold, Bet folding at least gives you the chance that your opponent might fold.
This thread= about 2 things
1) THE IMPORTANCE OF POSITION
2) How to size you bets
^^^^^^^ In that importance.
t1riel
Legend
Silver Level
Ok. Let's take that limping K, 9o was a mistake which I agree. It puts me in a tricky situation that I could lose a lot of chips. Wouldn't it be better to take the pot right there and avoid getting deeper into trouble than just make a pot size bet with the risk of being outdrawn? In other words, i made a preflop mistake. Now, I have a chance to take a small pot now and not take the chance to be outdrawn despite my preflop mistake. Last question, I swear.