Hi, I played this hand this morning and am wondering if anyone else plays this differently. We are three-handed in the Full Tilt $18,000 Guarantee. I have $3,100 locked up, second place is $4,100 and first is $6,500.

Button has been very active, generally raising on the button or from the SB when button folds about 50 percent of the time since we've gotten 4-5 handed. Button and SB here have had numerous tussles, with SB reraising Button several times (button folded all but one, when he called and get it in on the flop with A9s flush draw and doubled through SB's QQQ).

Because of this, I give SB a little less credit than usual for reraise here and do not put him on a monster. I'd give him a range of A9-AK, 66+, KQ. I have an uber-tight table image, having shown down only AA, 88, AJ and a set at the Final Table, and have pushed over a raise only once previously.

If I fold, there is a good chance SB and Button are all-in against each other and I probably have at least a 45 percent chance to earn $1,000 just by folding. On the other hand, I'm playing to win, if I double through I have more than half the chips in play and folding AQ three-handed just seems way too tight. Calling is simply out of the question, and I feel I have enormous FE with a push all-in (I think both fold PP smaller than 99 as well as, obviously, hands that I dominate like AJ- and KQ).

No Limit Holdem Tournament
$18000 Guarantee
3 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
BTN SickWitIt1 (513004)
SB Flushy Mcallin1 (307028)
BB Hero (307968)

Blinds: 5000/10000 Ante 1000

Pre-flop: (18000, 3 players) Hero is BB
SickWitIt1 raises to 30000, Flushy Mcallin1 raises to 80000, Hero goes all-in 306968, SickWitIt1 calls 276968, Flushy Mcallin1 folds

i would fold because if everybodys raising you could be sure somebodey havin
ak or a high pair so your chance of winning isnt high enough

I disagree with the chances of someone having AK or a high paier but I too would fold it. If your read is right, going 3 way with AQ is at best 40-60 to win. If you want to play bingo with $1K, go for it..... if not.... wait until you can go in with the better hand or at least heads up

ok the situation is clear. both bet and raise so its likely that at least one has good hand. if you go allin you go on confrontation course. and if your opponent has a monster like aa,kk or qq you have a big problem but with most of other hands you can compete. aq is not a bad hand. i would fold here most likely but who knows if i have the feeling i can get him then i go in. but i didnt watch the game of the player so difficult to say something. so depends on how much information you have about the other player and how much you trust your hand. i mean if im in this tourney last 3 then i wouldnt say go safe for second place. if i have good hands i will play them and try to win it but like i said difficult to say something. it was your table.

I thought I had a pretty good read, that SB would fold to my shove and that Button was raising light. I was half-right.

Usually when everybody raises, its very likely that at least one of the players has a pocket pair. So I think its a fold.

i would've done the same. Allin since you're playing to win and not playing for second. raise and reraise doesn't tell you much cuz button will raise anyway and SB is crazy aggressive. the only thing is Button could have like 10s or something and ur allin to a coinflip. What he end up having anyway?

At the end of this tournament, it is difficult to think after more than 4 hours.
With such a hand, sending allin.

Originally Posted by dqvpa

i would've done the same. Allin since you're playing to win and not playing for second. raise and reraise doesn't tell you much cuz button will raise anyway and SB is crazy aggressive. the only thing is Button could have like 10s or something and ur allin to a coinflip. What he end up having anyway?

I hate to post results but Button called, SB folded and villain flipped QQ.

If I fold, there is a good chance SB and Button are all-in against each other and I probably have at least a 45 percent chance to earn $1,000 just by folding. On the other hand, I'm playing to win, if I double through I have more than half the chips in play and folding AQ three-handed just seems way too tight. Calling is simply out of the question, and I feel I have enormous FE with a push all-in (I think both fold PP smaller than 99 as well as, obviously, hands that I dominate like AJ- and KQ).

I don't think folding AQ three handed to a bet and a reraise is too tight, but to just a bet it probably is. With situations like that, even when you feel one or maybe both is bluffing, you never really can be sure when they are going to go all in or not. I don't think you have enormous fold equity 3 handed, because just like you feel its too tight to fold AQ here, one of those other players will feel the same way with hands weaker than QQ. 3 handed FE definitely goes down big to a bet and a reraise, because people stop believing what you are selling at this point if they have any type of hand they like. Your image matters, but no where near as much as it wouldve when it was a table full of people. In situations like this one right here, the only FE you are likely to EVER have is Post Flop, and like you said its not worth it to call here.


Even when I think im good here this isn't a hand you really want a call with, I don't really want to face a pair when I have no clue what the original raiser or the reraiser has. Especially when its not suited. The sad thing here tho is, if the SB doesn't raise, your probably fair game to raise here and you wouldve got reraised, and wouldve been much more inclined to call a reraise all in (which your likely to lose) than shoving over top of a bet + a raise that preceded you. In both situations your potentially losing your whole stack You'd probably have the info to fold at the same time to a reraise if the guy was folding often to reraises meaning that he's only coming over top with the goods.

Either way, Its too much fireworks going on to have a clue what either one of those players want to do, and being that players get mental (you said he called once with A9 suited), you never know when either of them will call the all in. M wise, your good, definitely not strapped to get in there with anything you have plenty of time to not even steal for a while and still double up big in one hand, or one resteal from the regular raiser and you'd be getting by. Either way its just too much action here I think to risk getting in here when your M is a healthy as it is. Yeah you may get bluffed off the best hand sometimes here, but I think you will have better chances than this.

outside of that great cash, great game. You did good any way you cut it.

I would fold on this one 60% of time.

hard call but disipline tells me to fold and let the others fight it out.
with 1 more position being the difference between 1000 dollars more,
sit back bide your time and get that extra grand

Originally Posted by young hova

I don't think folding AQ three handed to a bet and a reraise is too tight, but to just a bet it probably is. With situations like that, even when you feel one or maybe both is bluffing, you never really can be sure when they are going to go all in or not. I don't think you have enormous fold equity 3 handed, because just like you feel its too tight to fold AQ here, one of those other players will feel the same way with hands weaker than QQ. 3 handed FE definitely goes down big to a bet and a reraise, because people stop believing what you are selling at this point if they have any type of hand they like. Your image matters, but no where near as much as it wouldve when it was a table full of people. In situations like this one right here, the only FE you are likely to EVER have is Post Flop, and like you said its not worth it to call here.


Even when I think im good here this isn't a hand you really want a call with, I don't really want to face a pair when I have no clue what the original raiser or the reraiser has. Especially when its not suited. The sad thing here tho is, if the SB doesn't raise, your probably fair game to raise here and you wouldve got reraised, and wouldve been much more inclined to call a reraise all in (which your likely to lose) than shoving over top of a bet + a raise that preceded you. In both situations your potentially losing your whole stack You'd probably have the info to fold at the same time to a reraise if the guy was folding often to reraises meaning that he's only coming over top with the goods.

Either way, Its too much fireworks going on to have a clue what either one of those players want to do, and being that players get mental (you said he called once with A9 suited), you never know when either of them will call the all in. M wise, your good, definitely not strapped to get in there with anything you have plenty of time to not even steal for a while and still double up big in one hand, or one resteal from the regular raiser and you'd be getting by. Either way its just too much action here I think to risk getting in here when your M is a healthy as it is. Yeah you may get bluffed off the best hand sometimes here, but I think you will have better chances than this.

outside of that great cash, great game. You did good any way you cut it.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful and long response. I am wondering though, what hands am I pushing over with? JJ+ and AK? AQ is a hand that has given me a ton of trouble. Normally in a three-bet pot at a full table it is an easy muck unless I'm desperate. You're right in that I could have picked a better spot and let the other two fight it out.

Originally Posted by baudib1

Hi, I played this hand this morning and am wondering if anyone else plays this differently. We are three-handed in the Full Tilt $18,000 Guarantee. I have $3,100 locked up, second place is $4,100 and first is $6,500.

Button has been very active, generally raising on the button or from the SB when button folds about 50 percent of the time since we've gotten 4-5 handed. Button and SB here have had numerous tussles, with SB reraising Button several times (button folded all but one, when he called and get it in on the flop with A9s flush draw and doubled through SB's QQQ).

Because of this, I give SB a little less credit than usual for reraise here and do not put him on a monster. I'd give him a range of A9-AK, 66+, KQ. I have an uber-tight table image, having shown down only AA, 88, AJ and a set at the Final Table, and have pushed over a raise only once previously.

If I fold, there is a good chance SB and Button are all-in against each other and I probably have at least a 45 percent chance to earn $1,000 just by folding. On the other hand, I'm playing to win, if I double through I have more than half the chips in play and folding AQ three-handed just seems way too tight. Calling is simply out of the question, and I feel I have enormous FE with a push all-in (I think both fold PP smaller than 99 as well as, obviously, hands that I dominate like AJ- and KQ).

No Limit Holdem Tournament
$18000 Guarantee
3 players
Converted at http://weaktight.com/

Stacks:
BTN SickWitIt1 (513004)
SB Flushy Mcallin1 (307028)
BB Hero (307968)

Blinds: 5000/10000 Ante 1000

Pre-flop: (18000, 3 players) Hero is BB
SickWitIt1 raises to 30000, Flushy Mcallin1 raises to 80000, Hero goes all-in 306968, SickWitIt1 calls 276968, Flushy Mcallin1 folds

I think I like this move. Based on your reads, villains are pretty laggy. AQ is a beast hand 3 handed, def shove it in here

Edit: Just read the results. Still think you made the right move, based on your reads

it actually is very good the way u played it

Originally Posted by ArminDeluxe

i would fold because if everybodys raising you could be sure somebodey havin
ak or a high pair so your chance of winning isnt high enough

Originally Posted by bobphilallo

Usually when everybody raises, its very likely that at least one of the players has a pocket pair. So I think its a fold.

Originally Posted by chapeltuno

I would fold on this one 60% of time.

These are all wrong based on reads given

everyone else seems to like the move....I still think its a fold, regardless of how laggy they are you are facing a raise and a reraise and you never know when EITHER PLAYER calls your reraise all in. Your really only going to make bluffs fold here 3 handed, personally pending on the players you are dealing with you may not even be able to make 77-1010 fold. Your M is so good I just think the play is unneccesary because when there is a raise and reraise going theres always that chance someone will be going all in.

Now you said the button has been raising, normally getting folds. You stated that you didn't give the SB much reraise value but the only hand you stated shown down by the SB when he reraised was QQ. So what information (previous hands) did you have to show that he would reraise with a much wider range? Has he ever just called the buttons raise? and if he has what have you seen him show down with? If he's flat calling raises occasionally I'm thinking either his reraise is either a resteal, or a real dominating hand. If you've only seen the SB show down qq in this situation its going to be hard to say he doesn't have hand/he has a hand he will fold here. If you want a flip thats not in your favor shoving is your way to go. I just think the fold equity is slim here. Did you ever ask the SB (or did he say) what he had at the end of the hand? Because even though he didnt' call the all in he couldve just been folding because he knows the button only comes overtop with the goods to his raises/it is an elimination hand and he has a chance to move up. Therefore, if the Button was to fold to your raise that doesn't mean the SB is guaranteed folding here, he could call you with pairs that he wouldnt call on that double all-in.


if the blinds were 10000/20000 with say a 2000 ante I'd like the shove alot more (even though I don't think its an automatic shove here), because at this point people are going to be pushing just because there M is forcing them with much weaker hands.

So I just still think, if all u've seen the SB showdown with is QQs (and im not saying thats all you've seen, but thats all you've posted at this point) its going to be hard to say you ever have fold equity/put him on the range you stated you thought he had. You can never forget the original raiser either, because even tho he folds ALOT, eventually HE DOES CATCH HAND, in this case unfortunately enough he caught a hand. So I jus say M wise at this point you will have better opportunities to push and steal. Obviously when you pushed you went off reads and you made a misread, which happens to the best of us, so you had a logical reason based on your reads to push, but reads or not this will always be a tricky situation to have a real good read on the situation.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful and long response. I am wondering though, what hands am I pushing over with? JJ+ and AK? AQ is a hand that has given me a ton of trouble. Normally in a three-bet pot at a full table it is an easy muck unless I'm desperate. You're right in that I could have picked a better spot and let the other two fight it out.

I can't front, I'd probably push with JJ, because its a made hand, AK I think is a choice of a gamble or not being that the hands made or not. It really is based on your read and like I said this is just going to be a hard situation to read. Firstly, I do think you kind of got unlucky by getting this hand in this situation its almost like a set up. Thing is you have a tight image I don't think a call is a bad idea, you still have plenty of chips to play with, and the button is ONLY coming overtop of raises with goods it seems like, because you said he either folds, or the one instance you said he called and was all in on the flop, but even in that situation he didn't come overtop preflop. So his come over the top range I would say is pretty dominating. Your tight, and a call could be a strong move, if you have jacks to your QQs well thats just a cooler 3 handed, but you can still call because the SB can put you on a stronger hand that you actually have and may check fold to you, OR, he could give you credit for an ace if it comes and you'd have a good chance to bluff.

I still dont think shoving is bad with jj here, but being that the chances are very RARE that you'll get bluff raised all in by the original raiser based on what he does I think you'll get more information out of what they both have by just calling, if the flop comes low clearly you may stack off here anyway. AK still a personal preference here its defintely easy to shove AK here but since the button isn't outrageously aggressive to the point he'll shove overtop with anything, I think you can just call there too. THE ONLY REASON I am saying all of this in terms of calling is because the only hand you said the SB has ever shown down in this situation is QQ, so thats the range Im going off of while also considering that once in the while the button will actually have a dominating hand here. If you posted showdowns of the SB reraising more often with air the than I'd probably lean towards okaying a shove but its really still a tough situation to shove. Don't forget all those times the button raises and there are folds, some of those times he also has hands in which he is hoping to get raised too.

That's not the only hand I had seen SB show down. He shoved over my Button raise (I had AJ) with 88 and he doubled up on me; he also called off a large chunk of his stack with A4 to knock out someone with 22 when we were 5-handed.

70% chance that i would fold..I would have to be sitting there and watching everyone..but if they are raising and your hands odds arent looking to good your going to have to get lucky..Your kicker wont help when the other person shows AK..So..Its highly unlikely someone will go in with A 3..they will have pocket pair or AK..So..Ya i would fold..Up to you..Good Post
Take Care
Ray

yes 65% fold or so the rest shove. how agressive is the table?

Because of your particular read on SB as an active reraiser, I'd have shoved in your position, and considered him lucky to catch that particular hand. A-Q is such a monster three handed, and as you say, your opponents could have had a lot of hands that you would dominate. And also, if you win you will get twice as much money so it's a risk worth taking I'd say.

I still think about this and i'm not sure what I'd do now. I had good reads on both villains but it just so happens Button woke up with a monster instead of his usual K9o or whatever. Still, I don't know, folding and letting the two of them go at it would have been better probably.

If they both had that hand range, and they only call with QQ, KK, AA or AK, the chances you bust are about 25+%, the chances you double up are about 5+%, and the chances you steal the pot are about 70-%. (If they call with something like AJ, these probabilities improve while if they call with JJ or TT, it will suffer a little).

If you look at it from a pure risk/reward standpoint, it averages out to a minimal gain. If you think you could have outplayed them in the long run, you might have wanted to just let it go.

I would've folded. I know 3 handed A/Q is good but I stick to what I know, raise and a reraise can't mean your hand is good. It's behind and putting your money behind is NEVER good.

those people who are giving one-line answers saying "ooohh, raise and reraise means definite fold!" obviously didn't read the original post. is it coincidental they all have less than 50 posts?

Originally Posted by jyow

those people who are giving one-line answers saying "ooohh, raise and reraise means definite fold!" obviously didn't read the original post. is it coincidental they all have less than 50 posts?

I would shove and hope to pick up the blinds and antes. If you get called by the loose player, there is a good chance you are ahead like you felt.

After reading your entire post, I think you played it as best you could given the information you had about your opponent.
I probably would have played it in a similar way but that being said maybe not all in.

A re-raise may have given you opportunity to get out of the hand and depending on what happened a red flag may have gone up.

If I was at a table with a player who appears to being pushing his chips around maybe an all in.

AQ is a powerful hand but I've seen so many players (myself included) play it WAY too much only to be beat by a smaller pair, and AK etc.

Without actually being there it's hard to say but I wouldn't beat yourself up over it, you made a decision, stuck with it and now you have to live with the outcome.
That's poker isn't it?
Good luck next time.

i would probably go call the bet just to see the flop or in the event that the cards come my way if i had that hand i would bet as smooth as possible just to see if someone had it higher than i. then again they could try and buy the pot but i would just go smooth the first person that raises might have something or could be bluffin if the have they would go all in to get others to fold

but i think you played it the way you thought it would had one my calls are the most dangerous calls

sometimes you would have to be there or in it to win it just commenting without impression or live its pretty hard but i guess if it was online then my first suggestion-live it'll probably different go with your gut feeling if you don't think you got fold it

well based on what you just said, the move seems good against the small blind. I still just think its always going to be a risk. I wish you could do a sample on some hands in this similar situation (say about 25 hands). And see what the success rate of the shove would be.

I'm kind of confused tho, are you shoving because you think you have the best hand, or were you shoving because you thought you can make everyone fold based on your image and if they happened to call you wouldn't be dominated?

Its a good hand to discuss, tough one to figure out man. I just still think, regardless, if these 2 guys are going crazy with the raise and reraise, I would try to let one of them explode on each other in those situations rather that get caught in the middle of one of their explosions with AQ; thats just me though. If they were really going at it I'd figure one of them is bound to make a mistake, and like I said your M is still good for this particular level for you to do that if you choose. Meanwhile, I'd take my chances stealing when its folded to me, here and there or sometimes in the blinds raising it up trying to steal. Because, I'm thinking the small blind will be the one to make a mistake soon. So I'd just try to make discreet plays so those two don't really think I'm much of a threat and let them blow up, than I'd completely flip the script when one of them knocked the other out.

Without actually being there it's hard to say but I wouldn't beat yourself up over it, you made a decision, stuck with it and now you have to live with the outcome.
That's poker isn't it?
Good luck next time.

he' couldn't have said that any better

this late of a tourney with AQ odds of them having anything better is pretty low. He Did flip OVer QQ its like wat... 3 outs. It's hard to give up on hands like those this late in the tourney. You made the right decision I would've put him on QK or something iunno lol

I'd say 'trust your first instincts'... you were on that table playing against that guy,.. you witnessed how he was playing and what he was playing, etc. With your super tight image, maybe he'd figure you'd lay your hand down even.. who knows.
Your gut was giving you the know how,.. our subconcious minds sometimes piecing things together for us and arriving at our 'first instinct' (one that's been developed over a period of time from many situations, etc.).
I'd say just shove it in there if you shoved it in there. Easy for many to say to just fold here but with the way your opponent was playing, I think you need to take a stand and just shove it in.
Unlucky... he woke up with a real hand this time. I'd say to just try to let it go and again trust your first instincts again in the future (it's a big part of what got you that deep in that tourney in the first place so I'm pretty sure you were doing something right... obv ).
GL!!

[quote=young hova;1013175] if these 2 guys are going crazy with the raise and reraise, I would try to let one of them explode on each other in those situations".


Just curious if you've witnessed many of the final tables in decent-sized buyins? (or when it's down to say 20 or so players). Not going to survive long if you're not getting real aggressive. jmo

wp ul gg gl

Just curious if you've witnessed many of the final tables in decent-sized buyins? (or when it's down to say 20 or so players). Not going to survive long if you're not getting real aggressive. jmo

I didn't say don't be aggressive, I said I just wouldn't jump to get in on the action of a bet and raise, as I said in that post that you are referring to:

Meanwhile, I'd take my chances stealing when its folded to me, here and there or sometimes in the blinds raising it up trying to steal.

my point is, I would try to initiate aggression. His M was fine, a few blind steals here and there and he is going to be okay without question. As long as I can steal a few times here and there or maybe raise an original person's bet once in a while I am maintaining, while the other 2 players are seemingly going at each other like wolves, one of them is bound to make a mistake, tilt, get trapped, etc. A double up at this point between pretty much any of the stacks is gonna make the winner of that pot the chip leader and as long as that is the case the villain is good. You don't have to be aggressive every single hand, this is just one hand he posted and he's facing a raise and a reraise in my hand. I didn't say don't be aggressive, I basically hinted at the idea of if I can't be the initiator of the aggression (or resteal once in a while, even though I don't feel thats necessary all the time; at a table like this it probably is) than I'll let that particular pot/hand go preflop.

Hero is not INITIATING the aggression here, he's got 2 other people doing that before him. At this point I don't think aggression is the point, the point becomes who thinks they have the best hand, only thing aggression really matters here imo is fold equity, If you can't make both players fold, than there is no real AGGRESSION to this hand.

Originally Posted by msjoker999

i would probably go call the bet just to see the flop or in the event that the cards come my way if i had that hand i would bet as smooth as possible just to see if someone had it higher than i. then again they could try and buy the pot but i would just go smooth the first person that raises might have something or could be bluffin if the have they would go all in to get others to fold

Originally Posted by msjoker999

but i think you played it the way you thought it would had one my calls are the most dangerous calls

Originally Posted by msjoker999

sometimes you would have to be there or in it to win it just commenting without impression or live its pretty hard but i guess if it was online then my first suggestion-live it'll probably different go with your gut feeling if you don't think you got fold it

Expert analysis IMO ^^

I ran into an almost identical situation this morning with AQo. It wasn't at the final 3, though, it was the last two tables of a 385 player $24+2 tournament at FT.

Just as before, Button and SB have been very active, running over the table at my expense and stealing my BB every orbit. They've been in several reraising wars with each other. I was prepared to shove over the Button's raise here but the SB shove gave me pause. I remembered all the talk about mucking AQo in this situation and was ready to fold. But my instincts were again telling me that SB really had nothing and was just restealing from Button, as she had several times previously. I called and prayed Button didn't have QQ this time.

--------------------
HAND #1
--------------------

Full Tilt, 2,000/4,000 blinds, 500 ante NL Hold'em Tourney, 6 Players
http://www.stoxpoker.com/hand_history_converter/ by http://www.stoxpoker.com/

UTG: 78,244 (19.6 bb)
BTN: 138,275 (34.6 bb)
SB: 153,064 (38.3 bb)
Hero (BB): 82,324 (20.6 bb)
MP: 28,470 (7.1 bb)
CO: 4,602 (1.2 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with Q A
3 folds, BTN raises to 12,000, SB raises to 152,564 and is all-in, Hero calls 77,824 and is all-in, BTN folds

Flop: (178,648) K 5 8 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
Turn: (178,648) 3 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: (178,648) Q (2 players, 2 are all-in)
Results: 178,648 pot
SB showed T J (high card King) and lost (-82,324 net)
Hero showed Q A (a pair of Queens) and won 178,648 (96,324 net)

like others have said this judgement lies in how you have seen the opponents play. IMO playing 3 handed AQ is a great starting hand, if both players are in the hand with raises i would fold the hand in hopes of gaining another place in prize money

from your description, it seems to me that should sit out and let the two protagonists fight it out and take second place. The 1K difference is probably worth waiting since you indicate that there is a very good chance that they will do so. Then heads up, who knows, you might catch good cards. IF, on the other hand the 1K doesn't mean that much to you...go all in like you did. AQ is a top ten hand. Three handed, that's pretty good preflop, either way, congrats.

Well glad the AQ worked out for you this time.

In this situation i fold it reluctantly just because if the other guy with 300k is reraising 80k that is a large part of his stack. At the least I put him with tens which really only gives you six outs. I dont know bout you but i dont want to risk my tourney life with just six outs i want to go in with hand I know i am favored to win. it is a tough situation but even if the other 300k stack doubles up u are not the short stack and can still wait for hands.

Honestly, I believe whatever decision you made was the right decision. This is an example of a case specific decision. You are the only one who has been playing in the same tournament for 5 hours or so with these people. You are the best person to decide whether or not you made the correct decision. And you did.