Fighting off the donks

elfmanvt07

elfmanvt07

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I was involved with a hand earlier where I checked my option with Q7 off. Flop comes 232 rainbow. A couple of guys checked, villain bets, I call just to see another card. Me and villain heads up to turn. An ace hits. I decide to represent an ace/test the waters and bet a little more than the pot. The villain calls. 5 on the river...

Now here's what happened. I checked. I figured this guy had a hand and that his call meant I was beat. He checked right behind me and turned over 8 5 offsuit, winning with 5's and 2's. I want to say that his call on the turn was poor. He wasn't getting nearly good enough odds to stay in. My question then is this, how do I defend against someone who makes this play?
 
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lottomode777

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DONT bluff DONKS AND CALL STATIONS. Wait for strong/good hand, value bet as much as you think they'll call, without going over the top.
 
elfmanvt07

elfmanvt07

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Well, the thing is, I didn't have any knowledge of the guy. My point is, not having any knowledge on the guy, what could I have done better/differently?
 
Dotde

Dotde

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I decide to represent an ace/test the waters and bet a little more than the pot.

Poor play here. There are too many hands that could beat you, and if you were going for a continuation bet (make him pay to see the next card/find out where you stand), why would you over-bet the pot?

My play here would have been check/check, regardless of knowing the outcome. bluffing is always risky, but you need to know when to and when not to bluff. This was a no-bluff situation.

And yeah I know I'll probably get criticized for my advice. x_x heheh
 
elfmanvt07

elfmanvt07

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I see what you mean, it could have looked like I was buying the pot with a crap hand, enducing a great player to want to PLAY, but CALL?
 
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Dotde

Dotde

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I never said that he made a good move, either. I'm just saying, with a poor hand like the one you had, without any real draws, you'd have been better off resigning yourself to the loss of your BB. (Again, that's regardless of already knowing the outcome).
 
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xtreme_calibur

xtreme_calibur

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I was involved with a hand earlier where I checked my option with Q7 off. Flop comes 232 rainbow. A couple of guys checked, villain bets, I call just to see another card. Me and villain heads up to turn. An ace hits. I decide to represent an ace/test the waters and bet a little more than the pot. The villain calls. 5 on the river...

Now here's what happened. I checked. I figured this guy had a hand and that his call meant I was beat. He checked right behind me and turned over 8 5 offsuit, winning with 5's and 2's. I want to say that his call on the turn was poor. He wasn't getting nearly good enough odds to stay in. My question then is this, how do I defend against someone who makes this play?
Q7 or 85 offsuit neither one shoulda been in the hand to begin with!:)
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Me and villain heads up to turn. An ace hits. I decide to represent an ace/test the waters and bet a little more than the pot. The villain calls.

I think one of the reasons this failed is that you can't just decide on the turn to 'represent an ace' and expect the villain to believe you. A play like that needs usually to be set up on previous streets to work.

Think back to the start of the hand: you checked from the big blind. Sure, you could have checked an ace, but you could have checked any two cards. If you had have raised pre-flop, the villain might have been more likely to give you credit for a good hand when the ace hit.

Also, think about the size of your turn bet: if you actually had an ace, you'd probably be rooting for the villain a call - chances are you'd have had the best hand. Overbetting the pot tends to scream "Please don't call me!" to an opponent.

Put these two things together from the villain's point of view: your preflop play doesn't suggest a strong hand (nor does your flat call on the flop, BTW), and your bet on the turn doesn't seem all that plausible for an ace. Conclusion: you probably don't have an ace.

Granted, the villain's call with 85o was pretty terrible - dunno what they were thinking. And maybe they would've called even if you had have played differently - donks and calling stations are like that. But next time you consider representing a hand, think back to your play on previous streets and see if what you're representing will seem plausible to your opponent - then make the appropriate play and see if you have more success.
 
blankoblanco

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I was involved with a hand earlier where I checked my option with Q7 off. Flop comes 232 rainbow. A couple of guys checked, villain bets, I call just to see another card.

no pair, no draw, Q high, out of position, seems like a good time to peel one off...
 
elfmanvt07

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Yeah, I know I shouldn't have been in the hand anyway. But, me and the guy were the chip leaders at the table, plus there were 3 or 4 sit outs. I realize I may have bet too much on the turn for how we played the flop. My question then is, how do I salvage this hand?
 
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Shandy

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Your in the bb- the flop is 223- represent a 2- Please- i would call the flop bet with ATC, with the plan of representing the two as well- just because how could villian really get here with a 2- not many people play 2x. A 2 certainly doesn't overbet the pot on the turn just fire out a 1/2- 2/3 pot bet- and the same on the river- really you should be the only one with a 2 in the hand- if someone has 22/33- chalk it up to a cooler. But yeah if this guy is betting 8 high, and calling a gutshot draw then this probably isn't the type of guy to represent a hand against- he won't be thinking about what u have.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Salvaging the hand? Dunno that there's much to salvage at this point. Making a value-sized bet on the turn would also have had the advantage of saving you a bit of money if it didn't work. But as played:

Knowing the result, and that the villain checked his pair of fives on the river, it's possible that another biggish bet on the river might have convinced him to fold... but since he called your turn bet with just eight high, it's doubtful he'd fold now that he's actually made a hand (albeit a lousy one). So that'd probably be throwing good money after bad.

Pretending that we don't know the result, things probably look even worse - you're up against an opponent who lead out on the flop and called your substantial turn bet. You'd have to figure that for some kind of real hand (maybe 88-TT in the hole?) and while it's not glamorous, check-folding the river would probably have been the only logical course of action when you arrive at the river with just queen high.
 
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lottomode777

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Okay, I just looked at the hand more carefully instead of skimming it. Villain was on gutshot draw when Ace landed. Next time, I would make a half pot size bet on turn to represent an Ace, then bet the pot on the river to put a lot of pressure on reasonable players.
 
elfmanvt07

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Thanks for all your input, guys. I realized when I did it that I had bet too much, but I was frustrated at his check on the river. I appreciate your help.
 
TubaMark316

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Donks are terrible people...they need to be shot in the FACE!!!

THE FACE!!!
 
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gearmaker007

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you tried to represent the Ace, & did so, his check on the river was because he thought you had the Ace or a 4 & tried to trap him. If i start to bluff, I keep bluffing. Another big bet on the river would have applied pressure & possibly have gotten him to fold. As long as you didn't put him on a 4, I definitely would have bet on the river.
 
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viking999

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I don't think this is a good representation of an ace (why call the flop with nothing?), but it's a pretty good representation of a 2. In the BB, free flop, just call the flop, come out betting the turn. It's a very common way of playing flopped trips.

Some criticisms. I wouldn't ever try this play with several players in the pot. It's more of a heads up thing. It's generally better to be in position, because then you have the option to abort if he comes out betting the turn as well. I would have also bet less on the turn. You should get a 3 to fold versus most any bet, but you probably won't get an ace to fold even with a greater than pot sized bet. So you can get the same hands to fold without risking as much.

Still, it probably should have worked as played. Your opponent was just loony. As a side note, if I don't have a read versus a player with a big stack, I lean towards considering him loose. You're more likely to have a big stack if you're loose (but you're also more likely to be bust).
 
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lottomode777

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Lol, if you guys played against pro's and sharks all day, it would be a slow, grinding fold fest, waiting all day for a cooler situation just to get any chips from anyone.
 
OzExorcist

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Lol, if you guys played against pro's and sharks all day, it would be a slow, grinding fold fest, waiting all day for a cooler situation just to get any chips from anyone.

Maybe - but who on earth wants to sit at a table full of pros and sharks all day long?!? I'd much prefer a table full of donks and fish.

I'm not entirely sure how that comment is relevant to this hand either: if the opponent was a pro... hell, if the opponent was even 'reasonable', to use your term, the entire hand would have played out differently.
 
Cheetah

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This bluff has the following problems:
  1. You don't know the player
  2. You are out of position
  3. It wasn't setup properly. A bluff has to be believable.
  4. No need to overbet when bluffing.
We have all done terrible bluffs. I used to bluff a lot Now I bluff less and always try to be in position. I use the same betting patterns(including bet sizes) that I use when I have a hand. For example, when in position, I may bet top pair on the flop, if called, check behind the turn(to control the pot size in tourneys), and then bet the river after a river check(or call after a river bet). I use the same sequence for bluffs so observant opponents can't tell the difference. That way, you don't invest much when bluffing, and you always have the option for a 2nd barrel on the river depending on the board. Note that you cannot do that OOP.

Of course, your opponent's calls were even worse. A player like that should NEVER be bluffed. And when you don't know anything about them, don't bluff them until you find out what type of player they are.
 
Insomniac_1006

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To beat the donk, know the donk,
To know the donk, be the donk.
 
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nicolas65

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no offense, but i can't give much respect when someone bemoans a failed move. yeah, he had pretty much nothing, but in the context of your play, maybe you were making too many moves, or he simply read you as holding weak cards. if i think i have a read on someone, particularly if that person is running over the table, i'll look him up with weak cards. that does two things: verifies whether i really have a read, and shows the kind of cards the guy is playing. his check on the river denied you a chance to fold and exposed your move for what it was.
 
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lottomode777

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I was responding to TubaMark's comment and to Elfman's approval of this comment. And I've played in the higher buy in tournaments, they are difficult to get chips in. When you look at the leaders, they usually have close amounts of chips, where as in small buy in MTT's (more donks), you can often find chip leaders who have a much wider lead over the rest of the field. Clearly, I am telling Elfman and TubaMark that donkey's are good for poker, and without them, that would leave the pro's and sharks, which would make the games tough as nails. Obviously noone on earth wants to play in this type of game, which is why you can't take donkey's and bad players for granted.

Originally Posted by TubaMark316
Donks are terrible people...they need to be shot in the FACE!!!

THE FACE!!!
 
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