Donk Move or did I calculate my risk/reward correctly?

[RichKo]

I know this info wasn't part of my post, but these 2 guys where going all-in almost every hand for 10 hands straight.

UUUUHHH, thats the exact definition of donk move, not thinking outside the box. Yeah you might get lucky sometimes, but thats not a winning strategy.

 

[BrentD22]

If someone could post some information about ICM please do so.

I WOULD LIKE THE CC MEMBERS TO KNOW THAT I WOULDN'T NORMALLY CALL OR EVEN PLAY A HAND LIKE Q6. MY HOPE WAS TO GAIN MORE INSIGHT INTO ICM AND THE MATH OF POKER. Please CC don't fail me by becoming a flame post similar to what goes on 99% of the time on 2+2. I would like to learn more about the advanced math of poker. I don't need to be told it was a bad call "just because".

 

[p0K35]

Ok, I'll flame, r troll, whatever, but this thread is kinda...

What's ICM? I'll call off a much of my stack with absolute crap, and hope to get lucky? Seems to be your style? Did you use ICM to get your stack? Nevermind.

To those that read the post and gave their gut reaction to seeing me call with Q6 as a really bad thing need to start looking at this game in a different way.

REALLY!!! ... Ok, er, ah, Ok... Had to think about this for awhile... Oops, I may have missed something...

...but these 2 guys where going all-in almost every hand for 10 hands straight...

...I WOULDN'T NORMALLY CALL OR EVEN PLAY A HAND LIKE Q6...

Ok. I missed something. What did you have the last 10 hands, hole card like?

Because, if you waited 10 hands to call with Q6o, you are not getting ICM(whatever that is), and you have missed the much bigger picture. How can you understand a system(or tool) to play poker, when you play lucky poker? Seriously, how would you know it works?

You think Q6o is a good call there? Would ATC work also, seeing as you seemed to lay down the last 10 hands?

But if ICM(what is that?) tells you to call, must be right!

 

[S93]

Ok, I'll flame, r troll, whatever, but this thread is kinda...

What's ICM? I'll call off a much of my stack with absolute crap, and hope to get lucky? Seems to be your style? Did you use ICM to get your stack? Nevermind.



REALLY!!! ... Ok, er, ah, Ok... Had to think about this for awhile... Oops, I may have missed something...





Ok. I missed something. What did you have the last 10 hands, hole card like?

Because, if you waited 10 hands to call with Q6o, you are not getting ICM(whatever that is), and you have missed the much bigger picture. How can you understand a system(or tool) to play poker, when you play lucky poker? Seriously, how would you know it works?

You think Q6o is a good call there? Would ATC work also, seeing as you seemed to lay down the last 10 hands?

But if ICM(what is that?) tells you to call, must be right!

ICM stands for Independent Chip Model.
In its simplest form ICM is a way of representing your current equity in a prize pool based on the relative stack sizes of the remaining players and the distribution of that prize pool among them.

And yes actualy from a ICM stand point calling with crap like Q6 is sometimes the right play.
I punched this hand into 2diffrent ICM aplicators and they bouth said call against BTN but i had a hard time adding the SB call to the hand so thats obvs. skewed.
So i still thing the call is the wrong move(until some one shows me how to add the third player to calculation atleast ).


And p0K35 how can u take the high and mighty additute every time and write post like your the poker god and not know what ICM is?

Any way can any one who is good at working a ICM programe punch in this complete hand with the SB included?

 

[BrentD22]

I typed it in on this site http://www.poker-tools-online.com/icm.html - I thought I read the numbers correctly showing me that called seemed better. Then I doubted if I was understanding these numbers correctly.

pOK35 - it's very funny your post. I can only amagine that you where acting silly. I mean if you where seriously acting like that without even knowing what ICM stands for hmmmm lol no you wouldn't do that.

 

[Double-A]

ICM stands for Independent Chip Model.
In its simplest form ICM is a way of representing your current equity in a prize pool based on the relative stack sizes of the remaining players and the distribution of that prize pool among them.

And yes actualy from a ICM stand point calling with crap like Q6 is sometimes the right play.

The ICM is a great tool to use when deciding on a range of hands to shove. When it's folded to us on the button, we can compare our equity in the hand (are current hand vs. two random hands) with our equity in the tournament. If our equity in the hand is greater than our tournament equity then we can shove. If it's not then we can think about doing something else.

But, that's not the case...OP is trying to use the ICM to justify a call.

I punched this hand into 2diffrent ICM aplicators and they bouth said call against BTN but i had a hard time adding the SB call to the hand so thats obvs. skewed.
So i still thing the call is the wrong move(until some one shows me how to add the third player to calculation atleast )..

We don't know all the details so, we'll have to make some assumptions...

His tournament equity is around 36% before the pre-flop call. It's really tough to find that kind of equity with Q6 in a three way pot. The BTN and SB would have to have ATC which is probably not the case.

If we fold then we keep the chip lead 100% of the time and when SB knocks out the button we guarantee ourselves more prize money. At worst, the BTN cripples the SB.

 

[BrentD22]

Double-A - TY very much... that is the best I've seen ICM explained. Before I never understood it correctly. I always assumed it was used to show u what your best chance of winning was per the chips stks and equity you have in the tournament. Thank you...

 

[p0K35]

ICM stands for Independent Chip Model.
In its simplest form ICM is a way of representing your current equity in a prize pool based on the relative stack sizes of the remaining players and the distribution of that prize pool among them.

Brilliant! But they had an M > 20??? So I guess this is another system for people who don't know how to play poker, to get an edge on those that can play some poker... Wonder what Sklansky thinks of ICM? Maybe he came up with it?

Regardless, this is a DONK move on so many levels, I need not explain.

If you need tools to play poker, you can't play poker. Once you learn to play poker, the tools, may be useful, or not. But at least you'll have some understanding about what the tool will offer you.

Donking off preflop, and then on a missed flop, is SO stupid, ICM should be required for every fish that plays poker.

Any way can any one who is good at working a ICM programe punch in this complete hand with the SB included?

Haha, can't even get the tool to work, BRILLIANT! Now you tool too.

This is such a useless post, BB with Q6o, just fold, so obvious.

 

[Double-A]

Double-A - TY very much... that is the best I've seen ICM explained. Before I never understood it correctly. I always assumed it was used to show u what your best chance of winning was per the chips stks and equity you have in the tournament. Thank you...

Thanks, but I left part of it out! You'd use the ICM just like you assumed...

In the OP situation, you'd use an ICM calculator to find your current tournament equity. Then you'd find what your equity would be if you call and win or call and lose. You'd assign a percentage chance of winning/losing based upon your opponents ranges. Eventually you'd wind up with three different equitys: fold, call and win, call and lose. Average the call and win with the call and lose. Pick the higher equity. If you haven't already, see this.

My point was, we don't need to rely on ICM thinking for the hand in your OP. There's no need for us to risk doubling someone else up with our Q6.

 

[BrentD22]

Ya know what I was playing much better before I started worrying about ICM calculations. I'm going back to good old TAG poker.

 

[p0K35]

follow the link Luke and use the 'FORCE'...

The problem with using only chip stacks and chips to determine the correct play in a single table tournament or SnG is that the chips do not correlate to their actual value on a one-to-one basis.

That is wrong.

SNGs can be MTT.

Chips are chips and they match exactly the chips your opponents have. They don't have to correlate, they just chips, and the values of the chips, match, exactly, until you color up, and even then, the chips match.

That is just plain old dumb arse, goobly gook. What do you mean my chips don't correlate on a 1-1 basis? Then on what basis "do they correlate?". Is that legal?

 

[S93]

If u have 1chip is that chip worth more then 1chip out of some ones stack that haves 100chips?
Ofcourse it is

 

[Inscore77]

Rickh, I'm not sure who you are or where you came from, but please stfu. That goes for pok and anybody else downgrading the OP. He came to ask a question about pot odds and if it was the right move, no reason for name calling. Thats not what we are about, if you like that kind of stuff, go elsewhere.

As for the hand itself, just fold it without risking another chip. These kind of hands will most always get you into trouble, especially against 2 ai's. Unlikely the Q is live, so youre just relying on the flush or the 6

 

[diamond_06_06]

Chips are chips and they match exactly the chips your opponents have. They don't have to correlate, they just chips, and the values of the chips, match, exactly, until you color up, and even then, the chips match.

That is just plain old dumb arse, goobly gook. What do you mean my chips don't correlate on a 1-1 basis? Then on what basis "do they correlate?". Is that legal?

He means that for every chip you loose the rest of the chips in your stack become just that little more valuable compared to all other chips in the tournament. mistakes will become that little more costly etc. And for every chip you gain, the rest of your chips become a little less valuable compared with the rest of the chips in the tournament.

For example if two players are contesting a 2,500 pot and one player has 30,000 remaining chips and another has only 2,000 then the chips in the pot are much more valuable to the shorter stack obviously

 

[diamond_06_06]

To those that read the post and gave their gut reaction to seeing me call with Q6 as a really bad thing need to start looking at this game in a different way. I know this info wasn't part of my post, but these 2 guys where going all-in almost every hand for 10 hands straight. The split 2 pots when they both had the same hand J10 then A9. I assumed that I had 2 live cards (hoped) and I knew that vs. 2 players Q6 about a 2:1 dog. Against a lot of hands I'm exactly that a 2:1 dog (or close to it - except AQ, AA, KK, QQ). For those that just type only "donk move" and
criticize others for thinking outside the box of the card nazi's thinking open your mind to the game. I'm trying to learn ICM and understand what it all means.

I inputed your hand into SitNGo Wizard, and even after openning both the pushing ranges of both villians to 50%+ it still says it is a clear fold. The blinds were only 150/300 right? With both villians pushing 50%+ you would still have to wait another 4 levels (or until 400/800) before the fold turns to a push.

As played the person who gains the most equity from this hand regardless of the result is the short stacked UTG that folded preflop.

 

[Double-A]

That is just plain old dumb arse, goobly gook. What do you mean my chips don't correlate on a 1-1 basis? Then on what basis "do they correlate?".

It depends on the pay out structure...

For instance, in the PStars 9 man SnGs you have to collect all of the chips to win but you only get 48% of the prize money.

At the beginning of a tournament each chip is worth x% of the prize pool. As things play out that relation changes. If you squeek past the bubble w/ one chip then that chip is worth at least the lowest payout. If you gave that same chip to the chip leader it wouldn't change his situation at all.