Battle Of Blinds, Just After AK Hand

C

ColdDeckCity

Rock Star
Hi all, a bit after the AKs hand in the previous thread i had this hand. I am pretty sure i played it badly but thoery or grounding would be usful, thanks

I dont reeally know a lot about the villian but he did call an all in re-raise after he raised with QK but he had a big stack and the pusher was short

Maybe i felt he was stealing since the rasie came from a big stack in the SB which lead me to play the hand like that.

Cheers

Stacks:
MP1 with 16822
MP2 with 21225
MP3 with 10225
CO with 14370
BTN with 19870
SB with 20590
BB with 6400
UTG with 12297
UTG+1 with 6505

hand.pl

Blinds: 300/600
Site: Party Poker
Dealt to BB:9♦ 7♦
Sklansky group 5
Preflop:
7 players fold.
SB raises [900]
Hero calls [600]
Total folds this street: 7
Potsize: 1500
Flop:
3♦ 2♦ 4♥
SB checks.
Hero bets [1,500]
SB raises [3,000]
Hero calls [1,500]
Potsize: 6001
Turn:
5♠
SB bets [3,000]
Hero is all-in.
Potsize: 6004
River:
Q♠
 
S93

S93

Legend
Raise more preflop if u whant to steal(might even consider pushing at this level), a min raise doesent scare any one.
After the steal fails u get a good flop with 2overs and a flush draw,with your stack im open pushing this flop. But u bet 1500 in to a 1800 pot(a good c-bet but your stack really doesnt allow it) and get raised to 3000 if your going to play this hand just go all-in.
Other then that not much to say u just missed your draw.
 
P

p0K35

Rock Star
You've got to be kidding me???? And I have read your AK sissy post...

Maybe i felt he was stealing since the rasie came from a big stack in the SB which lead me to play the hand like that.

I'll have to assume, you're referring to this hand, but why oh why would a much bigger stack be stealing your BB here? Thee olde maxwell smart steal the BB from the SB move? Why would they do that?

Ok, ok, here is where the stupidity starts. Ok, the BB, much bigger stack, is stealing your BB, and you have 97d, and you choose to defend? Why? Just fold. Period. 97 sooted sucks, but wait, you have position to the big stack SB raising you preflop? Fine, minor mistake, and you have a sooted 1 gapper, perhaps with pos, you can outplay them on the flop...

[3d 2d 4h]

That flop almost misses you completely, except for your 9 HIGH fl draw with 2 middle card overs??? How can you possibly think you are remotely good here?

But wait, the SB check raises you, and you seem to think you still good here???? wtf? ok, you weakly call, why? Fold preflop, this never happens.

Turn is NOT a blank, is 5s, SB bets, and you call allin? Why? What cards do you think you can beat here?

Do you possibly think your 9 high flush DRAW might be good? Really?

Seems to me, you donked off your stack playing like a flusher idiot...
 
B

BrewDoug

Guest
Harsh... But true... a flusher. POK35 is a wise man.. but harsh.

BTW -
contrary to popular belief...
The "Just after a blah blah" doesn't matter. It seems like it should but I like the thought of roulette... The wheel hit black the last 7 times. Chances of 8 blacks in a row is now... Still 50/50!... (ignore 0/00)
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

Cardschat Elite
That flop almost misses you completely

roflmao... except for the fact that's one of the best flops 97s could possibly hope for. But then, you folded to the min raise steal preflop, so you would never be in a position to make such a mistake.

op:
Get it all-in on the flop-- he was nice enough to re-open the betting for you, and you don't really have enough chips behind to call. You want to see both cards here with a possible/probable 15 outs twice, so just shove.
 
V

viking999

Visionary
Wow, ok. Some really bad advice flying around here. It sounds like some people don't understand probability and expected value at all. I think the post-flop play is ok. I'd probably shove to the raise, because you're absolutely committed to call any bet on the turn, anyway. I don't necessarily mind the moderate sized opening bet on the flop. You're going to get called by Ax or 5x a good portion of the time, and then you can get him off it with an all-in on the turn.

If you thought he was stealing preflop, why just call? You put in a tenth of your stack calling against a "steal" with a hand that is worse than a random hand. IMO, it's all-in or fold preflop. You definitely still have fold equity, so if you really think he's full of it, get the chips in there. If you're wrong, 97s is a good hand to have if he ends up calling with a monster. And of course, a fold isn't a bad idea either, because 97s is a below average heads up hand. I think calling is probably the worst preflop option.
 
P

p0K35

Rock Star
roflmao... except for the fact that's one of the best flops 97s could possibly hope for. But then, you folded to the min raise steal preflop, so you would never be in a position to make such a mistake.

One of the "best" flops? Surely you jest. That flop gives you a 9 high fl draw, and what? Maybe my 9 and 7 are clean outs? RIGHT...

At best, you have the ULTIMATE flop with 15 outs. But, realistically you have a 9 high, hardly showdown quality, imo. As posted, the BS is stealing your measly BB, so they must have, what, air? They raised preflop, and they just check-raise you postflop, they must be bluffin? Let's put them on a hand:

pp, two d, set, weak Ax, heck any Ax? What do you have, 9 friggin high fl draw, and MAYBE 6 outs to pr, right?

Wow, ok. Some really bad advice flying around here. It sounds like some people don't understand probability and expected value at all.

Ok, fair enuff. What is the expected value here? Lose stack to a weak drawing hand? That is what pot odds and implied odds are all about, value, right?

The original poster, converted HH, not sure why, but never posted result.

Whats to do?

Fold prefop, OOP.
Iffin you call the PF raise, and see that FLUSHER flop, then, but, of course get check raised, and push allin. brilliant....
 
vanquish

vanquish

Legend
you're supposed to trade ur cards for charizard and decimate ur opponent with fire attacks obviously.
sigh its like no one reads poker books anymore :mad:
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

Cardschat Elite
One of the "best" flops? Surely you jest.

Surely I do not? Do you think flopping a nine or a seven is a better result than this?

That flop gives you a 9 high fl draw, and what? Maybe my 9 and 7 are clean outs? RIGHT...

RIGHT... cause the guy who steal min-raised probably has AA right?

At best, you have the ULTIMATE flop with 15 outs. But, realistically you have a 9 high, hardly showdown quality, imo. As posted, the BS is stealing your measly BB, so they must have, what, air? They raised preflop, and they just check-raise you postflop, they must be bluffin? Let's put them on a hand:

pp, two d, set, weak Ax, heck any Ax? What do you have, 9 friggin high fl draw, and MAYBE 6 outs to pr, right?

Right. Yes, you can discount the pair outs, especially the seven.

Ok, fair enuff. What is the expected value here?

Well let's see: we will give him any pair, any broadway, any ace:

Odds

So, with the money in the pot already giving us an overlay this is a clear shove.

Lose stack to a weak drawing hand? That is what pot odds and implied odds are all about, value, right?

The original poster, converted HH, not sure why, but never posted result.

Whats to do?

Fold prefop, OOP.

It's not oop.

Iffin you call the PF raise, and see that FLUSHER flop, then, but, of course get check raised, and push allin. brilliant....

Ok Mr. Brilliant, time to do some math: there will be 6k in the pot after our call and we have 3k behind: that's 2:1, which is... wait for it... ODDS TO DRAW TO THE FLUSH EVEN IF THE PAIR OUTS ARE NOT CLEAN!!


see above.
 
Dwilius

Dwilius

CardsChat Regular
Awards
34
Why are your posts so hostile pok35? OP said he thought he played it poorly and wanted help, not to be berated.
 
F

feitr

Legend
You should just fold this preflop in this situation, since you can't outplay a big stack with a hand like 97s when you are severely shortstacked (ie. you have to hit the flop pretty hard to play back). However, seeing as you did call preflop, just shove the flop.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
see above.

Well adding broadway and even Ax to his range is a little silly. What makes you think he's stacking QJ here?

Even so, you are right in that getting it in is absolutely standard here as played pf. We have a little bit of FE and good equity.

Postflop is clear.

PF should be too - fold or raise. I say just fold.
 
P

p0K35

Rock Star
Why are your posts so hostile pok35? OP said he thought he played it poorly and wanted help, not to be berated.

My posts are not hostile, they are mobile and honest. My analysis is the best I can do, sorry if it fails to meet your standards... Seems:

Ok Mr. Brilliant

Is being rude and hostile, name calling like. Even if one is an 'aliengenus'?????

Fold preflop. OR

stack off, on flop, with your coin flip "BEST FLOP EVER" 46% to win, brilliant!

We may even be missing a river redraw, if you are truly a frusher..
 
un-diluted

un-diluted

Visionary
pok35 certainly has 'critical' posts...

pro imo

with a gentlemans attitude to players seeking advice...well...
 
Last edited:
P

p0K35

Rock Star
score it TKO in rd3 via 'rear naked choke', tapout, for all I care.

But, cmon.... For all we know, villian folded?

There are valid criticisms of the play here (which is what OP wanted)

Sure, I voiced mine. Getting hammered for it, and tone, but I'll go to my grave thinking this is a pretty poor play. Stacking off in the BB with a middle 1 gapper, sooted connector, defending my blind, with a 9 high fl draw???

Why defend in first place?

Seems to be an issue here. I wouldn't, OR maybe I would, if I had a great read... If you can play them Negreanu like, go ahead, defend.

With that flop, which is nowhere near a 'perfect' flop for 97d...

...but wait, you have position to the big stack SB raising you preflop...

Why not take free card instead of committing yourself on the flop?

umm, well, that is a little baffling. But, getting CR and calling is a huh, what? Need feedback from OP on that one?

When OP says, "I am pretty sure I played it badly, but theory or grounding would be useful", why would you mock him? I'm not saying you aren't trying to be helpful Pok35 (although ignoring pot odds) but I reiterate, the tone is hostile.

my bad, I apologize iffin I hurt anyone's feeling, but, this is poker, get over it, deal with it, or play tetris, or chess. backgammon has an element of luck, so you may want to stay away from that, lol.

The problem with pot odds, oops, fundamental problem with pot odds, is:

Drum roll please....

When you make the pot big enuff, with mostly your "used to be MYchips", by playing stupid, one, can make good pot odds reasoning to throw away your last chips into a pot, one, has little chance of winning.

Just some extra fyi, pot odds, big reason why man can program kompewter to beat hooman chess champion, but can't program kompewter to beat poker anyone????

Ok, I share too much
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
I don't get the converted Hand History (I wish the site would either fix it or ditch it)

Blinds are 300/600 and only SB and BB are playing so that's 900. SB raised 900 which makes 1800, and BB called 600 which makes 2,400.

So why is the pot size 1,500?

Preflop, you've not got enough chips to take a speculative flop. Fold, and steal the blinds yourself when you can be first in the pot against a BB with the correct sized stack.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
Ok, ok, here is where the stupidity starts. Ok, the BB, much bigger stack, is stealing your BB, and you have 97d, and you choose to defend? Why? Just fold. Period. 97 sooted sucks, but wait, you have position to the big stack SB raising you preflop? Fine, minor mistake, and you have a sooted 1 gapper, perhaps with pos, you can outplay them on the flop...

[3d 2d 4h]

That flop almost misses you completely, except for your 9 HIGH fl draw with 2 middle card overs??? How can you possibly think you are remotely good here?

But wait, the SB check raises you, and you seem to think you still good here???? wtf? ok, you weakly call, why? Fold preflop, this never happens.

Turn is NOT a blank, is 5s, SB bets, and you call allin? Why? What cards do you think you can beat here?

Do you possibly think your 9 high flush DRAW might be good? Really?

Seems to me, you donked off your stack playing like a flusher idiot...

Preflop I agree with you, but postflop I think you are way off. OP is putting the pressure on here, opponent folds to the flop bet and this HH wouldn't be analysed. Flush draw + fold equity + low stack size means you've got to make a stab at the pot. After he calls the flop bet you've got no choice but to take the hand to the end, even if you know you are drawing thin. You can't fold and leave 3K or 4K chips, you need to close your eyes and take a punt.

And H2H, hitting a diamond will be enough. You can't worry about opponent having 2 higher diamonds.
 
P

p0K35

Rock Star
And yet you say nothing.

Where does this come from? What do you have to say? I see no comments on the hand from you. Did I miss something? No.

Preflop I agree with you, but postflop I think you are way off.

Ok, think what you want, the prefl call, taint bad, see last post. Everything postflop is where the OP loses, er, wait, stacks off with a 9 high fl draw? Postflop is where this hand went all wrong, read the HH.

you need to close your eyes and take a punt.

yeah, ignore the fact there may be better fldraws, only 5/13d have you beat, iffin you even get there. sure, let's discount that other players may have fl draws? are you joking?

WVHillbilly would know...

huh, what? a punt may be different to soccer than NFL, but, then:

preflop: reraise
postflop:allin, no check, get raised, call, wtf?

That is not what happened...

The OP played this hand poorly, imo, get over it.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
yeah, ignore the fact there may be better fldraws, only 5/13d have you beat, iffin you even get there. sure, let's discount that other players may have fl draws? are you joking?

End Game of an MTT is very different to early game (I'm assuming from your post that you haven't played many MTTs or at least gone deep in them). OP has got into a situation that, after preflop call he only has 5,200 chips, between a half and a third of the average stack on the table. Blinds are 300/600, he is not going to be able to play a hand in the future without being pot committed from now on. So with a flush draw, this hand needs to be played to the end - there is no point counting outs, the MTT has not gone to plan so far and you are in a bad situation (and why talk about "other players" having higher flush draws - there is only one opponent in the pot, read the HH more carefully).

Post flop, you've got to bet - 2 ways of winning the pot, opponent folds, or he calls / raises and you catch a card to win. if you check it down, you've only got one way to win - standard MTT theory. OP bet 1,500 and was raised, but how can he fold now? Folding leaves 3,700 chips, that isn't enough. You've got to put the rest of the chips in, knowing you are probably a fair bit behind, and try and catch an out to double up.

Read Harrington on Holdem - Volune 2 - i think you'll find it invaluable in improving your game.
 
P

p0K35

Rock Star
End Game of an MTT is very different to early game...

assume what you want, but donking off your chips with a marginal hand, works both ways. Not a good idea, early, middle, late, in an MTT, or anytime, fyi.

The hand was played poorly. I'm not gonna debate this much further, unless WVHillbilly offers some useful content, which, having a good read, won't happen, lol.

Post flop, you've got to bet - 2 ways of winning the pot...

[deleted][/deleted] Well, that didn't happen. No need to skool me, and I think it is spelled "volume". If you discount the chances, that you are crushed here, well, there is always another tourney...
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
I'd bet you haven't had a good read since Moby Dick in the 7th grade and if I had to guess that was probably last year.

You really should shut up once in a while and listen to those who have forgotten more than you'll ever know. People like:
AG, who ran the pokerstove numbers earlier.
ChuckTs, who agreed with postflop play.
robwhufc, who even suggested further reading to help you further your game.

You dismissed them all. I ask you what's more likely that you're the only person in this thread who is right or the other way around?

Now before you spout off any further nonsense (your post really are nearly unintelligible, hence my earlier post), please post your super awesome tourney results. I'm sure you've made the money in some freeroll somewhere along the way.

Until next time.
 
P

p0K35

Rock Star
lol^3 they posted more than insults, lol...

that's cubed, lol.

yeah, that, I'm a 46% favorite pokerstove analysis, just proves my point.

your post really are nearly unintelligible, hence my earlier post

That is merely your opinion. I can't find a live person, who disagrees with my drivel analysis of this hand.

What's your analysis, btw? I guess I missed that somewhere...

lol^3
 
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