AQ vs utg raise, costadel league game

[ChuckTs]

Nicoiko is tight aggressive so far, and I've been a little active at this table.

Game # 577934950 - Texas Hold'em No Limit 150/300 - Table "Tournament Table CardsChat League Saturday Tourney 2878555 1"

Players(max 9):
beardy71 (5,985.00 in seat 1)
ChuckTs (7,835.00 in seat 2)
MackemRob (4,559.00 in seat 5)
AnnoDomino (3,526.00 in seat 6)
Alevera (3,865.00 in seat 7)
nicoiko (9,230.00 in seat 8)

Dealer: MackemRob
Small Blind: AnnoDomino (150.00)
Big Blind: Alevera (300.00)

ChuckTs was dealt: Qh - Ad

nicoiko Raise (975.00)
beardy71 Fold
ChuckTs ...

 

[tosborn]

Personally I raise to 1950 and fold to a re-reraise. You are probably up against a similar hand. With Nicoiko being the bigstack, even though he is TAG, I think that his raising range has to be opening up a little.

 

[joeeagles]

Interesting, because you have position and its a six-handed table. In these conditions I think AQo is a powerful hand, and IMO folding isn't an option. So, the question becomes: call or reraise?

You say nicoiko has been tight aggressive, and his raise is from UTG. The reraise is certainly more powerful than the call, but you'd have to to make it to about 2500. It depends on how comfortable you feel about doing it, if not just call.

 

[tenbob]

Fold. Put in a standard raise on the next hand with 32o.

First in raises at this stage of the game are much more important. Calling isnt an option, re-raise is ok(ish) if you get re-raised though you almost have a pot odds call, your getting into serious trouble here. I perfer keeping the pressure on, especially against a player whos been currently playing tight.

 

[beardyian]

Ooh Ooh i was there - can i answer lol

 

[joeeagles]

Fold. Put in a standard raise on the next hand with 32o.

I strongly disagree with both those statements.

1) AQo most times is not a hand to fold in this situation, even if raiser is UTG and has been playing tight. The combination of position, strong hand and short table makes this at least a call, although other things need to be factored in, like how this opponent plays post flop, how do you plan to continue if you miss the flop, etc.

I do, however, like the raise better, as mentioned before. If original raiser shoves, you DON'T have to call. I view folding here as very weak, and something to consider only in few circumstances.

2) Although first in is important, it doesn't necessarily happen in real life when you make a standard raise, position or not. A raise is different than a shove. Most players tend to call, reraise or shove standard raises with their better hands, even if many times they get in trouble because of it. Unless you're exploiting a certain table image, or you're read on table indicates you have a high % of getting away with it, either pre- or post flop, I wouldn't make such random "standard" raises.



There probably are some things that I'm missing on this hand, not being there and watching what has happened until that point adds up to valuable info you're missing, particularly if you are an observant type of player. In general though, I'll concede that this fold can be made a few times, but certainly not every time. That, IMO, is very weak.

 

[Bombjack]

I don't like re-raising here because you might get shoved on, especially if you've been active. I don't much like calling because obviously you're unlikely to flop a pair and versus a TAG you're not really ahead of his range. That said, you do have position on your side, although you could get squeezed. I think folding is fine.

 

[joeeagles]

I don't like re-raising here because you might get shoved on, especially if you've been active.

That is a perfect example of what I mean when I say I'm missing valuable pieces by not being there. Every hand is different because played in a different context. Your table image and how you are percieved is just as important as the image of original raiser. If you've been very active, the chances you get shoved are higher, viceversa, your reraises will get tons of respect. This will have a great influence in deciding what is better to do, and in conclusion there is no correct one way to play this.

 

[ChuckTs]

Well this was an interesting one. I've found myself waiting more for first-in chances rather than getting aggressive in spots like this lately, and tbh it's really helped.

I won't disagree with reraising here. We can repop, then fold to a shove, but if he just calls I could lose a lot of chips either on an ace-high flop, or even just with a c-bet (which would be all in I think).

A call is pretty ugly if you ask me. 6-handed, we should be reraising or folding. We don't want to cold call for that much, then face a c-bet on a rag flop or Kxx flop.

I folded with the thinking that my small pot poker PF was working more than good enough for me, and nico never showed down his hand here. Not sure if he wants to enlighten us with what he had but as I said, I folded and kept pressuring the blinds.

 

[blankoblanco]

I fold here against a player that's been pretty tight, (i.e. most of the time), only call if the range is considerably looser.

This may seem to go against what I said on your other UTG AQ topic (that I'd shove if it were six-handed), but what makes this a fold is how ugly the stack sizes are for a re-raise. As opposed to the other situation where you had like 10 big blinds, and could make a good-sized shove, here we've got like 25 big blinds.

If you re-raise, nico has a perfect stack to shove over it and make an ugly decision for you. If you make an over-raise and just shove all your chips in, you're risking your whole stack for a minor increase and you're pretty much exclusively getting called by hands that crush you. 2nd biggest stack doesn't really need to get involved with the big stack raising UTG here, IMO.

 

[tenbob]

I strongly disagree with both those statements.

1) AQo most times is not a hand to fold in this situation, even if raiser is UTG and has been playing tight. The combination of position, strong hand and short table makes this at least a call, although other things need to be factored in, like how this opponent plays post flop, how do you plan to continue if you miss the flop, etc.

I do, however, like the raise better, as mentioned before. If original raiser shoves, you DON'T have to call. I view folding here as very weak, and something to consider only in few circumstances.

2) Although first in is important, it doesn't necessarily happen in real life when you make a standard raise, position or not. A raise is different than a shove. Most players tend to call, reraise or shove standard raises with their better hands, even if many times they get in trouble because of it. Unless you're exploiting a certain table image, or you're read on table indicates you have a high % of getting away with it, either pre- or post flop, I wouldn't make such random "standard" raises.



There probably are some things that I'm missing on this hand, not being there and watching what has happened until that point adds up to valuable info you're missing, particularly if you are an observant type of player. In general though, I'll concede that this fold can be made a few times, but certainly not every time. That, IMO, is very weak.

First off nice post. To address a few issues, first off i wasnt playing the game so i dont know the table conditions either.

First off, AQo is a very marginal hand after facing a TIGHT and KNOWEDGLEABLE player who has raised UTG, even 6 handed, and even more so against a player that has us covered. Calling is terrible, if we raise and get called, do we c-bet on a rag flop ? (I dont reraise here with AA against a position raise btw esp 6 handed). Too risky and marginal, especially if we can play some effictive short handed small pot poker.

2) First in happens lots in real life. Come on, the cardschat crew tend to be as tight as a fishes arse at this stage of forum games, first in, and stealing with random 2 is the norm for the ppl that cash in them on a regular basis. Re-steals, meta game considerations and all that jazz comes into play on a level you wont achieve online until you reach much much higher buyins. Good players dont call raises unless they have a reason to in general, I raise with 23o from MP 6 handed occasionally, if i get reraised i fold, if i get called its usually by one of the blinds and i have position. Ok if you reraise properly and get shoved on, your not calling ?? I need to have a proper look at it but a call should be standard here.

 

[joeeagles]

First off nice post. To address a few issues, first off i wasnt playing the game so i dont know the table conditions either.

First off, AQo is a very marginal hand after facing a TIGHT and KNOWEDGLEABLE player who has raised UTG, even 6 handed, and even more so against a player that has us covered. Calling is terrible, if we raise and get called, do we c-bet on a rag flop ? (I dont reraise here with AA against a position raise btw esp 6 handed). Too risky and marginal, especially if we can play some effictive short handed small pot poker.

2) First in happens lots in real life. Come on, the cardschat crew tend to be as tight as a fishes arse at this stage of forum games, first in, and stealing with random 2 is the norm for the ppl that cash in them on a regular basis. Re-steals, meta game considerations and all that jazz comes into play on a level you wont achieve online until you reach much much higher buyins. Good players dont call raises unless they have a reason to in general, I raise with 23o from MP 6 handed occasionally, if i get reraised i fold, if i get called its usually by one of the blinds and i have position. Ok if you reraise properly and get shoved on, your not calling ?? I need to have a proper look at it but a call should be standard here.

Let me start by saying that you may not think so, but I respect your opinions. I'm going to have to give a better look at this hand and put some more thought into it. The biggest issues here are 2, I believe. The first 1 is the strength of Chuck's hand. In general, I think AQo in the CO is very strong in a 6-handed game. Now, you didn't say it isn't strong, but you think its marginal in this situation, because you're facing a raise from a tight and good player UTG. All this is certainly reasonable, UTG raises from tight players should get respect. But, if he has been tight, now that the table is 6-handed, shouldn't we assume that his range is loosening, also because he has given this image? Lets be honest, tight is not a winning strategy on the final table of a tourney once players start getting knocked out and the table gets smaller. That's not to say you turn it into a crapshoot, but if you don't make a stand with AQ in the CO, then when? The one thing I agree with is that this is very situational, and your image also needs to be taken into account, hence, that means there isn't a cold dry answer to this IMO, but perhaps I'm wrong.

The 2nd issue here is more of a strategic one, where I'm understanding that you would rather not call or reraise pots but play some effective shorthanded small pot poker. I don't think I can argue this if some conditions are met, i.e. if table actually allows you to do so. Its a great strategy when its effective. But this brings up the same question again. When and how do you stop opponents from doing this? Is AQo in the CO not a good hand to repop and try to stop it? You say first in and stealing with random 2 is the norm, so when do we make a stand against it? It seems to me that the arguement for folding this is mostly because the raise is coming from a tight player UTG, but Chuck then adds that nico never actually showed down his hands?!?!?! So, if first in and stealing is the norm, why are we assuming that nico has to have a big hand?

Even if it might not sound like it, I actually don't want to argue your post. What has me the most perplex here is the fact almost everyone, not only you, considers the call terrible. TBH, I actually like to reraise much more than smooth call, but even if so I struggle to see why this is such a terrible call. I can understand the whole point that you'd rather play small pot poker, but the 2 things are not and can't be mutually exclusive. I think in order to win the final table at some point you also need to make a move to get more chips, small pot is great but can only take you so far and the advantage will go to whoever piles up chips at a faster pace than you. Again, this doesn't mean turning it into a crapshoot, but when exactly do you make a move, since I'm sure you agree that we can't sit and wait for aces to do it?

In total honesty, I admit that my shorthanded game needs to improve. I'm not very good at it, I'm much better than I was before and have realized some of the mistakes I used to make and I'm having better results ever since, but I'm far from having achieved "expert" status. Therefore, I'm reading all this with interest and trying to make sense of it, and I'm doing so in good faith and not because I want my opinion to win, I really couldn't care less about that. The true purpose is to understand and learn, in order to improve your weak areas, and unfortunately shorthanded is not exactly my strong so this type of HA are the ones I follow with alot of interest.

I will, as I said, give some more thought on this hand and might post more about it later.

 

[tenbob]

Nice post, its 4am now though, im after playing 1000 nl ring hands, ill post my thought tomorrow, when im more coherent.

 

[joeeagles]

Nice post, its 4am now though, im after playing 1000 nl ring hands, ill post my thought tomorrow, when im more coherent.

I'm looking forward to it, TB.

 

[NineLions]

I can sneak in a (probably misguided) thought before tb returns.

Joe, I think you're right in that nico's range may be loosening at this stage of the tourney, as is everyone else's. How much of a range I'm not sure; pairs gain in value while connectors, including AQ, lose in value. The problem for me is those 66% or whatever of the time you miss the flop, even though you're in position. Nico is going to pressure you to make a decision. For me even hitting an Ace on the flop is scary because there's a good chance he's either on AK, or he's going to represent as such and I don't know if I want to risk my chips to find out. The only good flop is Q high rainbow.

As for how to stop AQ in cutoff not being good enough in this situation, I don't think you stop it, you just have to be first in with it. If not, nico will put you in a situation that you're got a difficult decision to make.


I haven't played nico a lot myself as I usually manage to donk away my chips before the final table. When I do get there though it's a lot of fun as the cards don't matter as much as stack size and how aggressive you want to be with your holdings.


I too look forward to tb's further elucidations.

 

[ChuckTs]

@joe:

You make a fair point about nicoiko probably not being as tight as we would think, saying as how if he's playing 'proper' strategic poker, he should be loosening up due to the number of players diminishing. Even so, his range is something we're not a huge favorite over with our AQo (at least in my and TB's opinions).

I think the biggest reason we shouldn't be playing this hand here is because of the risk-reward difference between playing this, and just folding and continuing to play small-pot PF poker.

We'll be risking either our whole stack, or at least half of it if we reraise here, and we won't be much of a favorite over his range (especially if he sticks us in). Should we stick to stealing blinds, which was working very well for me in the later stages, we only risk a fraction of our stack and are very much the favourite for taking the pot down. Do this again and again vs tighter players, and we can really build on our stack, and hopefully get action when we do hit a big hand.

Getting first-in vigourish is the key I think. I would really like to see one of our more experienced posters (elbows tb) write a thread/article about it.

 

[nicoiko]

hey nice post really.

I gonna tell you what hand I got and how i should have reacted to either a call or a raise from Chuck as I think it should be very interesting to continue the discussion and could help my game too.
I'm just gonna wait for a while that TB (and some other CC if they want to ) posts his thoughts about that one before giving you some more elements.

 

[tenbob]

Lets look at a few different options.

1) Fold, we very adquetly stacked, we know the players and we have decided we can play effective small pot poker againt them. This strategy becomes more and more effective as the blinds increase, and especially as we reach the bubble. For this game plan to work we need a stack that can damage or bust another player. If we think our skill advantage is under doubt, then folding may not be the best option.

2) Re-raisiing, lots of things can happen. We have to committ a nice protion of our stack for the raise to be effective. If we get shoved on, we fold and lose a lot of the potential damage our stack can do.
UTG has shown considerable strength, the raise is sized nicely, and it really put us to the test.

If we reraise and get called, we are in no better position, we only discount the big pair hands, and not always even that, and astute player may just let you hang yourself on a rag or Q high flop.

We reraise, he folds, well its the best we can hope for really, and we still only win a smallish pot, after putting ourselves in significant danger.

this is the old adage of losing a big pot vs winnign a small one. I feel that reraising here puts us directly into this category. UTG on a 6 seated table is still the equivelent of an EP raise on a full one, I give respect here.

Why do I assume that villian has opened up his range because its shorthanded. I dont assume in poker, i need information to make mysefy aware of this, if he has been playing tight, why just assume now hes playing loose ? Assuming things in poker is bad, give the credit where its due, and only change that credit once you have information that counters it.

Calling, now that i think about it more has merits. If you have good knowledge of the way the villian plays post flop you may be able to get him to fold out hands like AK/QQ/JJ 1010 even AA or KK dependant on the flop texture, calling with the idea of snapping off a c-bet may be fine.

I keep using shorthanded aggression and keep my stack however, cardschat players are notorious for tightening up once the blinds increase.

Disjointed post, soorry.
-TB

 

[nicoiko]

So I'm gonna revealed my hand for now : i was raising UTG with As Js.

That is definitely a special hand for me : although it gave some nice possibilities (pairs with high kicker, straight and flush...) this one gets me into a lot of troubles.

Playing that hand UTG really depends of the moment of the tournament and the read i've got on the players : early I will be very cautious with this hand and probably fold moreover if i got some loose players after me.
At the bubble on final table i willl be more inclined to push a bit with it.

Here there is 2 things that justify the choice i've made : Firstly they're 6 players left for 4 places paid. Moreover players finishing from 9th to 5th get the same CDP league points. So they is no difference for me finishing 6th or 5th.
Secondly my chipleader situation, the fact that the 2 smallest stacks are on the blind and as TB said the fact that the most part of the CC's tightened their game once we arrive in bigger blinds.

Those are the facts that made my decision to raise about 3.5 BB UTG with this hand as it is a good occasion to devitalize more and more the smallest stacks and take a huge lead and control of the table.
Then if I've been called this hand gives me a lot of amelioration possibilities.

The last point which with Chuck's hand sounds very likely is : what if i've been reraised ?

I'll let you discuss about what would you have done at my place.
Fold it because you're beaten there ?
Take advantage of both your chip lead and image at the table and shove ?
Just flat call to see if the flop shows something good for you ?

Then i will tell you what is my point of view and what i've probably done if Chuck would have reraise me

 

[tiltboy]

Personally i would have called with A-Q (i guess its easy to say now). 3.5 BB in position against a TAG player is not a problem for me. I dont consider a smooth call that terrible considering the chip stacks. Chuck says he folded with the thinking that his small pot poker PF was working more than good enough for him. So this allowed him to walk away from this as he had better spots to accumalate chips.

I cannot see the point in reraising here, i dont want to get too heavily involved in a hand with A-Q but quite happy to see the flop in position and get a feel for a my opponents holdings.

AJ reraise - it would depend on the raise and the callers but to be honest AJ UTG after a reraise i would be happy to throw away i have enough chips to wait for a better spot. I would have been worried about Chuck T esp if he was active on that table.

I think you would have had to fold if chuck reraised - it would not be a godd idea to play against another big stack out of position when the big stack is a little active.