AKo faced with allin reraise

[Shandy]

villain was fairly reckless, had seen him all in before with less than adequate holdings, i think once was with 74o where he sucked out, and had seen him call allins with A9o, the bb was sitting out at the time, and both of us had been at the table for a long time, at least 7 circuits, and it just so happened that quite a few of my pf raises fell when villain was in bb or sb (i think 4 or so times). Am fairly confident i am ahead of his range, do i make this call, or do i keep my reasonable stack and not risk giving the biggest donkey on the table a decent stack to bully with?
Think my image was probably TAG, raised about 1 or twice a circuit and almost everytime everyone would fold, so hadnt shown down many hands, the ones i did show down i had the goods.

*********** # 12 **************
pokerstars Game #10256738957: Tournament #51167518, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit -
Level XIII (1250/2500) - 2007/06/03 - 20:07:11 (ET)
Table '51167518 399' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Zpaceman (72672 in chips)
Seat 2: Donkey5layer (20100 in chips)
Seat 3: nkmayers (115300 in chips)
Seat 4: RocLUFC (53550 in chips)
Seat 5: StackChipz71 (49458 in chips)
Seat 6: bud82656 (46734 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: GameOverXXX (29150 in chips)
Seat 8: Phaedrus (18885 in chips)
Seat 9: 222shay222 (95822 in chips)
Zpaceman: posts the ante 250
Donkey5layer: posts the ante 250
nkmayers: posts the ante 250
RocLUFC: posts the ante 250
StackChipz71: posts the ante 250
bud82656: posts the ante 250
GameOverXXX: posts the ante 250
Phaedrus: posts the ante 250
222shay222: posts the ante 250
StackChipz71: posts small blind 1250
bud82656: posts big blind 2500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 222shay222 [Ks Ad]
GameOverXXX: folds
Phaedrus: folds
222shay222: raises 5000 to 7500
Zpaceman: folds
Donkey5layer: folds
nkmayers: folds
RocLUFC: folds
StackChipz71: raises 41708 to 49208 and is all-in

 

[Shandy]

Just for a little more context this is about 100 people away from the money, so even if i do call i can still just coast into the money. And one of his earlier suckouts had been against me, which had cost me about 20k (which may or may not have effected my decision)

 

[Ronaldadio]

I think at that stage it depends on how many left in tourny and the result you want. If u r in the money but you want to win the tourny u call, if u feel that u will get higher up by folding do that.

I suppose its the normal stuf, QQ or less u r about 50/50, AA/ KK u r done, any worse u r ahead.

Having said all of that, I don`t play those stakes!!!

For me to make a real call I would need to know how many left in tourny and if u r in the money

 

[stormswa]

villain was fairly reckless, had seen him all in before with less than adequate holdings, i think once was with 74o where he sucked out, and had seen him call allins with A9o, the bb was sitting out at the time, and both of us had been at the table for a long time, at least 7 circuits, and it just so happened that quite a few of my pf raises fell when villain was in bb or sb (i think 4 or so times). Am fairly confident i am ahead of his range, do i make this call, or do i keep my reasonable stack and not risk giving the biggest donkey on the table a decent stack to bully with?
Think my image was probably TAG, raised about 1 or twice a circuit and almost everytime everyone would fold, so hadnt shown down many hands, the ones i did show down i had the goods.

*********** # 12 **************
PokerStars Game #10256738957: Tournament #51167518, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit -
Level XIII (1250/2500) - 2007/06/03 - 20:07:11 (ET)
Table '51167518 399' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Zpaceman (72672 in chips)
Seat 2: Donkey5layer (20100 in chips)
Seat 3: nkmayers (115300 in chips)
Seat 4: RocLUFC (53550 in chips)
Seat 5: StackChipz71 (49458 in chips)
Seat 6: bud82656 (46734 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: GameOverXXX (29150 in chips)
Seat 8: Phaedrus (18885 in chips)
Seat 9: 222shay222 (95822 in chips)
Zpaceman: posts the ante 250
Donkey5layer: posts the ante 250
nkmayers: posts the ante 250
RocLUFC: posts the ante 250
StackChipz71: posts the ante 250
bud82656: posts the ante 250
GameOverXXX: posts the ante 250
Phaedrus: posts the ante 250
222shay222: posts the ante 250
StackChipz71: posts small blind 1250
bud82656: posts big blind 2500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 222shay222 [Ks Ad]
GameOverXXX: folds
Phaedrus: folds
222shay222: raises 5000 to 7500
Zpaceman: folds
Donkey5layer: folds
nkmayers: folds
RocLUFC: folds
StackChipz71: raises 41708 to 49208 and is all-in

I bolded a extemly good player.


you have way over 10bb left this is pretty easy fold for me.

 

[tenbob]

Depends on what your goals for the tourney are. If you entered with the idea of simply cashing then folding is your best option. If you want to make a run for the big bucks of the final table then these are the hands that you need to work for you. AK is a nice hand but not necessialary a monster, I call against this maniac and hope that it holds, you ahead of his range, just hope that only one of his cards is live.

Personally against a maniac, I happily call this every day of the week.

 

[stormswa]

what

Depends on what your goals for the tourney are. If you entered with the idea of simply cashing then folding is your best option. If you want to make a run for the big bucks of the final table then these are the hands that you need to work for you. AK is a nice hand but not necessialary a monster, I call against this maniac and hope that it holds, you ahead of his range, just hope that only one of his cards is live.

Personally against a maniac, I happily call this every day of the week.

this is surprising me you would say this, this is a kind of hand you want to shove one someone not call a all in with. Look at your stack in relation to the blinds. 2500 BB and you have 90k....36 big blinds, no reason to put yourself in marginal situation. If the dude is a maniac like you say you can wait for better spot.


I honestly don't even think I would think about this too long I would just auto muck. If I had less big blinds then yes its auto call but this just isn't worth it. I don't think this is a +ev call at all.

he is not desperate this is not a desperation push he has 20bb left. This is a coin flip at best.

 

[Shandy]

Should the fact that this is a fairly maniacal player come into your thought process on this hand, when blinds are getting to this level you really dont want some one around who is going to keep stealing your raises with allin pushes, so AK is a fairly good hand to try to get rid of this player, and to demonstrate to the rest of the table that you won't be pushed around. Or is this thinking too metagame, and at this stage we should we really just be playing solid straight forward poker?

 

[joeeagles]

This is really borderline between calling and folding. To win or FT this type of huge field tourney its true that you need to win some coinflips, AK is a good hand to attempt just that, but a fold is also understandable.

The read on this guy is that he makes loose plays, but you didn't say what his stack was when he pushed with 74o or called a shove with A9o. Storm is right here, he does have 20BB, so he's not desperate. Was he desperate when he made those plays? Looking at his stack I'm guessing yes.

I think either way you go can't be considered right or wrong and what TB and Ronaldo say about your tourney goals plays a major role in deciding this. Given a choice you would prefer to be the shoverer rather than the caller.

Having to give an answer, I think I call this all things considered (loose player, good hand to call an all-in, a stack big enough to make the money even if I lose this hand, chance of getting rid of this maniac and having an even more comfortable stack).

 

[stormswa]

yes

Should the fact that this is a fairly maniacal player come into your thought process on this hand, when blinds are getting to this level you really dont want some one around who is going to keep stealing your raises with allin pushes, so AK is a fairly good hand to try to get rid of this player, and to demonstrate to the rest of the table that you won't be pushed around. Or is this thinking too metagame, and at this stage we should we really just be playing solid straight forward poker?

yes it plays a big part and I would be willing to shove on some raise he made but calling a all in I think is silly here.

even if we are ahead to say something like JQ or JT or ever 23 we are not a lock here by any means. Against players like this I like to play more postflop because they are easy to outplay at that stage. Or if im going to play them preflop I will but not with AK.

 

[mrsnake3695]

There is only one goal in a tourney and that is to win it, not just finish in the money. Just finishing in the money doesn't even double your buy-in which is better than bubbling out but not by much after hours of play. Do you really want to be laying down the 3rd or 4th best hand after a shove by someone with half your stack? Especially someone who has shown a tendency to put all his money in with marginal holdings? I think there is a better than 50% chance you are way ahead here than way behind. In other words, figure any pocket pair QQ or lower to be a coin flip, that leaves you with him having AA/KK vs having any other 2 non-paired cards. I think there is a way better chance he has some other unpaired holding than AA/KK. Therefore, you are better than 50% to win and I call.

Now I understand the agrument that you shouldn't take the chance, etc. but I still argue that it;'s about winning the tourney not squeaking into the money and you will never win the tourney without accumulating lots of chips especially has the blinds get higher and higher. You cannot accumulate lots of chips without taking a few chances and gamble a little. AK against a manics BB reraise shove when you raised should really be a fairly easy call in my opinion.

I actually had a pretty similar situation in last sundays million. I was on the button with AK. I raised and the player in the BB with half my chip count reraised all-in. I called and he had KQ so I was dominating him. The fact that a Q came out and I lost isn't really important since I was dominating him when the money went in.

I think there is a much better chance you are up against KQ than AA. Even if he has KK you can still win with an Ace and how many times have you seen an ace hit when you have KK?

I think the choice is Call-add 50K to your chips stack and go to the final table or fold-play weak/tight/scared as you eeck your way to the money and then be forced to shove with J-10 since the blinds are eating you up.

I know this is going to be unpopular, but I think folding AK here is way weak.

 

[stormswa]

ummm

by folding this here you are not saying im tryng to skate in the money. If you had like maybe 12-15 bb it would be easy call but seeing as you have tons you can wait till better spots to accumulate chips. If you were the one pushing all in it would be totally different.

I repeat I always try to win the tourneys and by folding this you are not conciding the tourney.


how is folding here eeking your way into the money? I dont get that.


he has over 30 BB if he folds and that is enough to make a run at final table its plenty.

 

[stormswa]

another thing

you guys are all basing your answers on reads or the fact tha you are crippled if you fold. Which you are not by any means.

this should be based on chip stack in relation to blinds as much as your read. If a fold here would totally cripple you then yes its easy call but seeing as you can fold and have plenty of chips.


there is no way you are going to convince me folding is weak here.

 

[joeeagles]

There is only one goal in a tourney and that is to win it, not just finish in the money. Just finishing in the money doesn't even double your buy-in which is better than bubbling out but not by much after hours of play. Do you really want to be laying down the 3rd or 4th best hand after a shove by someone with half your stack? Especially someone who has shown a tendency to put all his money in with marginal holdings? I think there is a better than 50% chance you are way ahead here than way behind. In other words, figure any pocket pair QQ or lower to be a coin flip, that leaves you with him having AA/KK vs having any other 2 non-paired cards. I think there is a way better chance he has some other unpaired holding than AA/KK. Therefore, you are better than 50% to win and I call.

Now I understand the agrument that you shouldn't take the chance, etc. but I still argue that it;'s about winning the tourney not squeaking into the money and you will never win the tourney without accumulating lots of chips especially has the blinds get higher and higher. You cannot accumulate lots of chips without taking a few chances and gamble a little. AK against a manics BB reraise shove when you raised should really be a fairly easy call in my opinion.

I actually had a pretty similar situation in last sundays million. I was on the button with AK. I raised and the player in the BB with half my chip count reraised all-in. I called and he had KQ so I was dominating him. The fact that a Q came out and I lost isn't really important since I was dominating him when the money went in.

I think there is a much better chance you are up against KQ than AA. Even if he has KK you can still win with an Ace and how many times have you seen an ace hit when you have KK?

I think the choice is Call-add 50K to your chips stack and go to the final table or fold-play weak/tight/scared as you eeck your way to the money and then be forced to shove with J-10 since the blinds are eating you up.

I know this is going to be unpopular, but I think folding AK here is way weak.

No, to me its not unpopular you make some very good points which I tried to also make but didn't explain as well. I agree with all this and I'm quite sure, wrong or right, that I'd make this call too against a loose maniac.

That said, even if I'm for the call I don't argue those who think the fold is better because they prefer a different strategic approach. Alot has to do with your confidence in being able to build a big stack without risking this much, but I'm convinced to win a 7000 field tourney you have to win some coinflips and 70/30s at some point and time.

 

[stormswa]

ok

there is not going to be a clear call or fold here, it all depends. On alot.

like I said im a good postflop player so I feel I can get this guy all in, in a better spot. I can also see the spot you all are taking so im not closed minded and I did read snakes post and he did make some good points except for his last one.

 

[mrsnake3695]

I understand you points storm, and i know you to be a very good player so your points are given even more credence. I would like to point out anouther thing here. If you fold, yes you have 36X BB now, but pretty soon (less than 20 mins, poster didn't say when the next blind level is) the blinds will go up giving you about 20X the BB (assuming you don't win a hand before that which is going to be pretty hard if you are folding AK)which doesn't give you much room to play without pot commiting yourself. A this stage of the tourney the blinds go up big and you may feel your comfortable now and get a cold deck for 15-30 mins and find yourself shortstacked and trying to hang on. It's very possible to not have very many playable hands in this time especially if other players see you folding to reraises. If later on you get AQ or 10-10, are you going to fold to reraises then too. What hands are we going to play AA and KK only. Remember at this stage there are alot of reraise pushes since alot of players see that a call or standard raise will leave them with less than 10X BB anyway, so if you are going to raise a hand it's rare at this stage to just get a call. Most likely you will get all folds or a reraise shove by someone.

The point about it's better to push with AK than call a push with it is true to a point. Fold equity is good to have and it's always better to be the pusher than the caller. But with AK the more important thing is to see all 5 cards which you do either way if you are all-in if you push or call the push isn't has important with AK as seeing all 5 cards is.

 

[stormswa]

I understand you points storm, and i know you to be a very good player so your points are given even more credence. I would like to point out anouther thing here. If you fold, yes you have 36X BB now, but pretty soon (less than 20 mins, poster didn't say when the next blind level is) the blinds will go up giving you about 20X the BB (assuming you don't win a hand before that which is going to be pretty hard if you are folding AK)which doesn't give you much room to play without pot commiting yourself. A this stage of the tourney the blinds go up big and you may feel your comfortable now and get a cold deck for 15-30 mins and find yourself shortstacked and trying to hang on. It's very possible to not have very many playable hands in this time especially if other players see you folding to reraises. If later on you get AQ or 10-10, are you going to fold to reraises then too. What hands are we going to play AA and KK only. Remember at this stage there are alot of reraise pushes since alot of players see that a call or standard raise will leave them with less than 10X BB anyway, so if you are going to raise a hand it's rare at this stage to just get a call. Most likely you will get all folds or a reraise shove by someone.

The point about it's better to push with AK than call a push with it is true to a point. Fold equity is good to have and it's always better to be the pusher than the caller. But with AK the more important thing is to see all 5 cards which you do either way if you are all-in if you push or call the push isn't has important with AK as seeing all 5 cards is.

hmmmm.....

those are real good points, I dont know now. Maybe it is better.


ok so against a good Tag player are you still calling?

 

[bw07507]

Wow, that is a pretty tough decision you have here. If it were me and I had the read on the player that you did, I think Id call. My postflop play is not as good as I would like and I have a tendency to bluff too much, so I think Id stick it in here. Your going to see all 5 cards and I highly doubt that he has AA or KK. I used to play scared towards the money in MTTs and always finish just in the money. Now I tend to take more risks like this and try to make final tables. Im very curious to see the results of this hand.

 

[stormswa]

well

Wow, that is a pretty tough decision you have here. If it were me and I had the read on the player that you did, I think Id call. My postflop play is not as good as I would like and I have a tendency to bluff too much, so I think Id stick it in here. Your going to see all 5 cards and I highly doubt that he has AA or KK. I used to play scared towards the money in MTTs and always finish just in the money. Now I tend to take more risks like this and try to make final tables. Im very curious to see the results of this hand.

this isnt about playing scared this is about value.

by the way snake after alot of thought on this, yea I have been thinking about it all night actully I like your line. I like your reasoning for taking the line also and I do agree. Well played sir.


998 posts

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

Snake hits the nail on the head. You have a good read on this guy. You want to make the final table. You have one of the top hands. Poker may be a game of skill but it is also called gambling. There comes a time in the tourney when you have to take that gamble to move on to the next level. If not now, when? If you lose you still have time to recoup but if you hit it you've made a major jump in your placement.

 

[stormswa]

Snake hits the nail on the head. You have a good read on this guy. You want to make the final table. You have one of the top hands. Poker may be a game of skill but it is also called gambling. There comes a time in the tourney when you have to take that gamble to move on to the next level. If not now, when? If you lose you still have time to recoup but if you hit it you've made a major jump in your placement.

yep after snakes last point, even though I hate admitting I might be wrong in this situation I believe I'am.

 

[shinedown.45]

you guys are all basing your answers on reads or the fact tha you are crippled if you fold. Which you are not by any means.

this should be based on chip stack in relation to blinds as much as your read. If a fold here would totally cripple you then yes its easy call but seeing as you can fold and have plenty of chips.


there is no way you are going to convince me folding is weak here.

I'm with storm (in part) on this one.
I almost always look at my stack in relation to the blinds when considering someones all-in, so if he had made the call and lost then he still has a chance to compete.
I will also say that if villian was playing loose and showing down marginal hands, folding AK to his all-in is a weak play considering the read that was made on villian.

 

[joeeagles]

I'm with storm (in part) on this one.
I almost always look at my stack in relation to the blinds when considering someones all-in, so if he had made the call and lost then he still has a chance to compete.
I will also say that if villian was playing loose and showing down marginal hands, folding AK to his all-in is a weak play considering the read that was made on villian.

Shine what you say makes sense, and I don't think you're wrong, but here is why I agree to make this call.

I've never played the SM but as I said before I do watch some of it almost every week during the late stages. Last week when they were down to about 100 players the avg stack was ~700k. At that point the sum of SB+BB+antes was around 96k. That gives an M of barely over 7. This sounds weird for a tourney that starts with 10k for each player but its true, you can check it yourself next week. As Mrsnake said the blinds rise every 15 minutes or so but they rise in a pretty big fashion. 36 BB now means 20 for the next level and probably 12 for the level after. I forgot who posted this before (I think it was MrDaMan, can't find the thread though) but believe it or not this big tourney is very card dependant (ok, maybe not totally since good players are stronger than the adversities, but you get the idea).

Now throw into this other considerations: the fact the shover is a loose maniac, its not for all your chips and you'll still probably make the money, you have AK against a wide range, a chance of knocking out this player, you're playing to make the FT not just to go ITM, and most of all in a 7000 field you know you have to take some chances to survive deep, win some coinflips, some 70/30s and perhaps a couple of 30/70s.

You know you have to risk at some time, when can it be better than this with AK against a maniac whose range is predictably wide? Think this, it is very improbable he has AA or KK, so if he even has a PP you're coinflipping, and the chances are very good you're actually dominating him with 3 to 1 odds. When could it get any better knowing you have to do this at some point and time?

All this said, I won't argue it if you think you'd fold here, I understand it. I just wanted to share my thoughts on why I'd call this.

 

[Ronaldadio]

A few points that keep coming out here.

1. Read on the player - because he is very loose I call. Most of the other players I would fold AK to an all in raise.
2. Your aim in the tourny - I do not know a tourny I have played in that I have won or placed where I have had to come from well behind in a showdown, let alone 50/50!!! (My KK v AA and hitting K on river, that kind of thing )
3. Blinds structure - If you fold at this stage where will you be in relation to the blinds.

Using the old Harrington formula for point 1. He is ahead 5% it`s a coin flip 40% (being cautious) I am ahead 55% = CALL

I want to win the tourny = CALL

Blinds structure - He wins hand u still have over 10 times bb left so then you might want to limp into the cash or wait for that final all in. = CALL

So, based on the above, in my very basic opinion, I call.

I know all of the contributors to this post are good players, so I respect all of your decisions on this hand - and I can understand why some would fold.

However, I am more in agreement with mrsnake, who in the main seems to be saying, if you are going to fold AK to a maniac what hands are you going to play? Fold KK to an all in from a steady player because he might have AA or his 1010 might hit trips? (This is my thought pattern guys, not a slur on anyones decision to play this hand or not )

For what its worth, my guess to putting this guy on a few exact hands would be AK, AQ, JJ, 1010 - what did he have, out of interest???

 

[Shandy]

Well thank you all for the replys, it is now looking like you all agree that a call was probably the best action, and as it turned out when i saw it fold around to this player i was 90% sure he was going to shove, which made the call a little easier, as knowing that this was the sort of player to do something like that, opened up his range by a fair amount. And since this was only my second time in the million, i was quite happy to just cash and get a little more than the buyin back, which i could do easily even if i lost. Well results are posted below, and as it turned out i did recover and get back upto over 300k so wasnt so bad.
*********** # 12 **************
PokerStars Game #10256738957: Tournament #51167518, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit -
Level XIII (1250/2500) - 2007/06/03 - 20:07:11 (ET)
Table '51167518 399' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Zpaceman (72672 in chips)
Seat 2: Donkey5layer (20100 in chips)
Seat 3: nkmayers (115300 in chips)
Seat 4: RocLUFC (53550 in chips)
Seat 5: StackChipz71 (49458 in chips)
Seat 6: bud82656 (46734 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: GameOverXXX (29150 in chips)
Seat 8: Phaedrus (18885 in chips)
Seat 9: 222shay222 (95822 in chips)
Zpaceman: posts the ante 250
Donkey5layer: posts the ante 250
nkmayers: posts the ante 250
RocLUFC: posts the ante 250
StackChipz71: posts the ante 250
bud82656: posts the ante 250
GameOverXXX: posts the ante 250
Phaedrus: posts the ante 250
222shay222: posts the ante 250
StackChipz71: posts small blind 1250
bud82656: posts big blind 2500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 222shay222 [Ks Ad]
GameOverXXX: folds
Phaedrus: folds
222shay222: raises 5000 to 7500
Zpaceman: folds
Donkey5layer: folds
nkmayers: folds
RocLUFC: folds
StackChipz71: raises 41708 to 49208 and is all-in
bud82656: folds
222shay222: calls 41708
*** FLOP *** [Qd Th 5c]
*** TURN *** [Qd Th 5c] [4s]
*** RIVER *** [Qd Th 5c 4s] [6c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
StackChipz71: shows [Js Qh] (a pair of Queens)
222shay222: shows [Ks Ad] (high card Ace)
StackChipz71 collected 103166 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 103166 | Rake 0
Board [Qd Th 5c 4s 6c]
Seat 1: Zpaceman folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Donkey5layer folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: nkmayers folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: RocLUFC (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: StackChipz71 (small blind) showed [Js Qh] and won (103166) with a pair
of Queens
Seat 6: bud82656 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: GameOverXXX folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Phaedrus folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: 222shay222 showed [Ks Ad] and lost with high card Ace

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

You nailed the guys play correctly. The cards didn't come your way. It happens. The next time it will. Good call.