78s early in OFC event

[dg1267]

No real reads on JHARRI1821 as it was pretty early in the tourney, but AAAAS111 had already proven himself worthy of a very laggy bully by raising/calling raises every hand in the tourney.

Stage #1413753953 Tourney ID 4033799 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $10 - 2009-01-17 15:04:59 (ET)
Table: 123 (real money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 1 - DCRYS1979 ($2220 in chips)
Seat 2 - DENNISFRANKS ($1485 in chips)
Seat 3 - JUSTWICKED69 ($1480 in chips)
Seat 4 - ISA60JM1 ($1485 in chips)
Seat 5 - JHARRI1821 ($560 in chips)
Seat 6 - KIDSALL1 ($1490 in chips)
Seat 7 - AAAAS111 ($1780 in chips)
Seat 8 - PAVEL2005RO ($1500 in chips)
Seat 9 - KINGDEATH ($1500 in chips)
KIDSALL1 - Posts small blind $5
AAAAS111 - Posts big blind $10
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to DCRYS1979 [7s 8s]
PAVEL2005RO - Folds
KINGDEATH - Folds
DCRYS1979 - Calls $10
DENNISFRANKS - Folds
JUSTWICKED69 - Folds
ISA60JM1 - Folds
JHARRI1821 - Raises $20 to $20
KIDSALL1 - Folds
AAAAS111 - Calls $10
DCRYS1979 - Calls $10
*** FLOP *** [Kd 8c 10s]
AAAAS111 - Checks
DCRYS1979 - Checks
JHARRI1821 - Bets $65
AAAAS111 - Calls $65
DCRYS1979 - ????

 

[baudib1]

um...fold

 

[S93]

Fold or raise preflop,open limping usualy just turns your hand over and tells them u have SC or a small PP imo.
On the flop its a easy fold,u might be good but u dont really play SC to continue after the flop with bottom pair,u need 2pair+ or some kind of combo draw to continue.

 

[chukky88]

fold,sure...only way to win this hand is to come another 7 or an 8 but i think you dont wanna pay for this cards...if you call and turn dont come a 7 or 8 i'm sure you will fold then,cous will be a big bet,so if you call now you will lose some chips.

 

[hbkmad]

that is a quick fold

 

[dg1267]

Well, I got two folds and a raise/fold. I know I've got to have a set of brass balls to be playing 78s this way, but I don't have the kajones to raise it preflop like that. And I've been reading a lot more about early tournament strategy and more and more I'm reading to be a little more aggro. So what I'm doing is playing about a 50/15 game up until the BB is at 50. Then, I back off a little. It seems to either knock me out or put me in the 6k-8k range in chips, so I think the risk is worth it.

Will post the rest of this hand later today.

 

[hbkmad]

hopefully in a week i can post some hands i have a thousand save, now if ur stragey works do u get more aggresive or more conservative

 

[shinedown.45]

Well, I got two folds and a raise/fold. I know I've got to have a set of brass balls to be playing 78s this way, but I don't have the kajones to raise it preflop like that. And I've been reading a lot more about early tournament strategy and more and more I'm reading to be a little more aggro. So what I'm doing is playing about a 50/15 game up until the BB is at 50. Then, I back off a little. It seems to either knock me out or put me in the 6k-8k range in chips, so I think the risk is worth it.

Will post the rest of this hand later today.

How many times do you get knocked out compared to how many times you double your chipstack?

 

[dg1267]

hopefully in a week i can post some hands i have a thousand save, now if ur stragey works do u get more aggresive or more conservative

I try to go to ~20/5. Hardly ever works, but I normally sit in the 30/5 range.

How many times do you get knocked out compared to how many times you double your chipstack?

I never really kept score, but I would say that 50% of the time I at least double up. But out of those times, I might go deep about 10%. And this is in f/r's only. I don't play this way in buy-in tourneys.

 

[S93]

What are your postflop stats?
maybe post a screenie?

 

[dg1267]

I'll try to post one of those in the next couple of days. I haven't had a reason to take a screenshot since I bought HEM.

But guessing...

C-bet ~ 50%
FC-bet~ 50%
W$SD~ 70%

These are the only ones I keep. The W$SD might be a little high, but it stays close to there because if I make it to the SD I've usually got 2 pr or better.

 

[cardsDontMatter]

Suited connectors are played for implied odds in Position, because having position gives you the best idea of what your implied odds might be. Seeing a cheap flop is your best case scenario.

Suited connectors, OOP are a great semi-bluff hand, if you have the chips and you must raise. If you connect (two pair, OESD with a baby flush, trips), most likely you will stack your opponent, but you're not looking to flop bottom or middle pair...

Suited connectorsd are also known as chip bleeders.

Which fits here?

 

[Dwilius]

Fold or raise preflop,open limping usualy just turns your hand over and tells them u have SC or a small PP imo.
On the flop its a easy fold,u might be good but u dont really play SC to continue after the flop with bottom pair,u need 2pair+ or some kind of combo draw to continue.

Basically agree with this, although it is a freeroll and turning your hand face up often won't help your clueless opponent at all. You have 220 big blinds, it doesn't take cajones to put in a 3-4bb raise. If the table lets you limp and pays off when you hit its not so bad, but since you know there's someone that's either going to raise or call a raise, better off putting the raise in yourself.

This isn't a good flop for your hand, and even though you might be ahead of the active player, there's someone else in the hand too. Cheap flop, this is the kind of situation where you could hit 2 pair and fill someone's straight draw.

Also, might want to start raising your suited connectors, and smaller pp to disguise your best hands a little. 30/5, what is that JJ/AQ+ raises?

 

[dg1267]

Okay, here's the hand from the flop. And I guess I'm misunderstanding some of the things I'm reading here and there. D'wilius says, along with others, to raise preflop here to "disguise" my hand. I think I'm actually playing in reverse order.

*** FLOP *** [Kd 8c 10s]
AAAAS111 - Checks
DCRYS1979 - Checks
JHARRI1821 - Bets $65
AAAAS111 - Calls $65
DCRYS1979 - Calls $65
*** TURN *** [Kd 8c 10s] [7c]
AAAAS111 - Checks
DCRYS1979 - Checks
JHARRI1821 - Checks
*** RIVER *** [Kd 8c 10s 7c] [5s]
AAAAS111 - Checks
DCRYS1979 - Bets $130
JHARRI1821 - Folds
AAAAS111 - Calls $130
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DCRYS1979 - Shows [7s 8s] (Two Pair, eights and sevens)
AAAAS111 - Mucks
DCRYS1979 Collects $520 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($520)
Board [Kd 8c 10s 7c 5s]
Seat 1: DCRYS1979 won Total ($520) HI$520) with Two Pair, eights and sevens [7s 8s - P:8s,B:8c,P:7s,B:7c,B:Kd]
Seat 2: DENNISFRANKS Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: JUSTWICKED69 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: ISA60JM1 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: JHARRI1821 (dealer) Folded on the RIVER
Seat 6: KIDSALL1 (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: AAAAS111 (big blind) HI: [Mucked] [9c Kh]
Seat 8: PAVEL2005RO Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: KINGDEATH Folded on the POCKET CARDS



I'm not saying I'm right by any means, even though this hand works out for the best. But I posted three hands from this tourney for a reason. All three of these hands are typical of sticky situations that I get into with my style of play.

I know about odds and such, but the other player doesn't always hold the cards that best match the odds for the given situation. In my limited experience, what I run into if I raise this hand 3x preflop is basically I'm gonna have the same amount of callers that are in this original hand. The only difference is that now, when the flop comes out, there's more money in the pot making it a little easier for players like AAAA111 to want to raise 2x or 3x the pot and steal it. At that point, I'm definitely folding and I've lost everything that I put into it.

If I fold preflop, I haven't really lost anything, but I haven't gained anything either. And if this is a hand that could really show some value out of a raise in this position, why would I fold it?

The way I played it is exactly what gets preached on here all the time (or so that the way I feel). "Long Term" not the "Short Term". I can let these hands go if I believe I'm beat. If I don't, I may donk into another call here and there, but I'm not going broke with hands like this. And plays like these, I feel, are enough to keep people who are paying attention wondering what I've got in my hand.

These are my thoughts on the matter and I really did expect a lot of criticism, so let me have it. If I'm wrong then so be it.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Well, I got two folds and a raise/fold. I know I've got to have a set of brass balls to be playing 78s this way, but I don't have the kajones to raise it preflop like that. And I've been reading a lot more about early tournament strategy and more and more I'm reading to be a little more aggro. So what I'm doing is playing about a 50/15 game up until the BB is at 50. Then, I back off a little. It seems to either knock me out or put me in the 6k-8k range in chips, so I think the risk is worth it.

Will post the rest of this hand later today.

OK this is going to sound like I'm just being a dick but...

Being loose does NOT equal being aggressive. Limp-calling with suited connectors / small pocket pairs is about the most passive way you can play. At 50/15 you're a fish, no 2-ways about it. You might occasionally get lucky or suckout but make no mistake you're playing badly. Same at 30/5. You really need to work on your game. Those stats are BAD.

 

[dg1267]

Here's that screen shot I was promising. It is during a buy in, but the table was mainly pretty tight, so I'm playing a little loose. But my numbers are close to what I was saying.

 

[ChuckTs]

OK this is going to sound like I'm just being a dick but...

Being loose does NOT equal being aggressive. Limp-calling with suited connectors / small pocket pairs is about the most passive way you can play. At 50/15 you're a fish, no 2-ways about it. You might occasionally get lucky or suckout but make no mistake you're playing badly. Same at 30/5. You really need to work on your game. Those stats are BAD.

This.

Your hand you posted, you limped in a terrible position, called a flop bet with the worse hand, again OOP, and sucked out. Not quite winning strategy.

As WVH said, playing aggressive does not mean limping a lot of hands and calling flop bets with bottom pair no draw. That's called playing loose passive and it's the typical characteristic of a fishy player...

 

[dg1267]

OK this is going to sound like I'm just being a dick but...

Being loose does NOT equal being aggressive. Limp-calling with suited connectors / small pocket pairs is about the most passive way you can play. At 50/15 you're a fish, no 2-ways about it. You might occasionally get lucky or suckout but make no mistake you're playing badly. Same at 30/5. You really need to work on your game. Those stats are BAD.

This.

Your hand you posted, you limped in a terrible position, called a flop bet with the worse hand, again OOP, and sucked out. Not quite winning strategy.

As WVH said, playing aggressive does not mean limping a lot of hands and calling flop bets with bottom pair no draw. That's called playing loose passive and it's the typical characteristic of a fishy player...

Okay! I give! I guess I'm misinterpreting certain aspects of what I've been reading. Especially the aggressive parts.

I'm just having a hard time seeing it the way I need to on the table. When I drop HA hands in here it becomes as obvious as night and day after a few comments to me, but applying it at the table is where I run into problems.

Do I need to start back at your 10K post, Chuck, and start playing only the opening hands you suggest in there and then try to add on later? I think I'm trying to digest way too much information all at once and it's overwhelming me when I try to apply it.

 

[ChuckTs]

It all comes with practice, dg. The starting hands I posted in that 10k post are probably a good starting point. Never stick to a set guideline though - there are always times when you can deviate and play trash (like for a button steal against very tag blinds), or play tighter hand ranges if the players behind you are too loose, etc.

Just keep playing and remember to play WAY more hands in the cutoff and button than you would in earlier position or the blinds, and play them aggressively, meaning you usually raise or fold them preflop. Limping in general is a bad idea.

 

[WVHillbilly]

It can be hard to assimilate everything you read here and everywhere else into your game quickly, but the real key to playing winning poker long-term is that Position + Aggression = $$. Yes there can be times to limp behind or even rarely limp 1st in (so I've heard anyway, never really tried it myself), but in general if we get to be the aggressor (meaning we've raised or 3bet) and we have position on any remaining opponents we're going to win WAY more than our fair share.

Just keep working at your game. Work to make the difference between your VPIP and PFR small (somewhere between 2 and 4 depending on how loose you end up being I would think). Keep posting those hands and you'll see that the more times people point out your mistakes the less often you'll be making them at the table. It's not instantaneous and it takes effort but it's definately worth it.

 

[baudib1]

I would shoot for something like 13/10. Play super-aggressive with the hands you do play and don't slowplay.

 

[AZE]

This is a pretty standard shove PF. No one is going to expect you to shove with 78s and thus they won't call correctly.

 

[dg1267]

This is a pretty standard shove PF. No one is going to expect you to shove with 78s and thus they won't call correctly.

 

[JoeDi]

I would say fold .. I think double the blinds pre flop wouldnt be careless but a call is as reasonable too.. With a hand like that your looking for score.. bottom pair against 2 other callers isnt going to make it worth your while to call. Chances are at least one of them has hit the K.

 

[silverslugger33]

FOLD FOLD FOLD FOLD FOLD. A big bet and a call and you actually think your bottom pair is good? Don't fool yourself into thinking that you are making an aggressive play by staying in. A call is simply chasing and a raise will almost certainly get called by at least one of them. FOLLLLDDDDD