$5 NLHE STT: TT preflop early game decision

[OzExorcist]

$5 NL HE STT: TT preflop early game decision

This is probably a basic question but I think it's an area where I've still got leaks so looking for some opinions. What do we do in this spot, and does the answer change at all if we make our range 77-JJ instead?

Second hand of the game, no reads.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 5.5 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t1485)
Hero (SB) (t1470)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1545)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 10

, 10

UTG calls t30, 3 folds, MP3 bets t135, 2 folds, Hero wonders WWKLD

 

[WiZZiM]

meh. not a good spot... i dont really like calling here as were oop and only just getting the right price to set mine.. i really dont like raising.. and folding seems to weak.. its so very borderline here.. 135 is a significant raise, it would be like the max bet id call in this situation i wouldnt call any higher amount and to be honest id probably fold to this bet.. 10 10 really has the same value as 22 in early blind play in a sng.. i dont think raising is ever a good idea here..

answer really doesnt change with pairs 10's or lower.. they are all small pairs that were looking to set mine with in the early game.. later blind levels this becomes a raise or fold situation... with JJ it becomes trickier and id lean toward raising.. QQ+ and its def a raise..

pokerstars with the structure there are two levels we can call with pairs to set mine 10/20 and 15/30 once it hits 25/50 its no longer profitable.. so i believe the next level is 2/40 so thats pretty close to being unprofitable so there is only one level we can call with pairs 10's and lower to setmine..

135 is like a max max bet id call in this situation.. i still dont think its a very good call and id fold this sometimes.. early on we can afford to miss out on value here as we should have a huge edge by the time the bubble comes or in late blind stage play.. were looking to conserve to be able to steal blinds later..

 

[Western mail]

Ive been getting plenty of hands like this all time latley when the blinds are small and insignificant.Calling is probably a little spewy here especially as he will have position over you.Its probably a fold for me but then its so easy to say that after the heat of the battle.I dont think calling is terrible but there will certainly be better spots than this.

 

[Jillychemung]

This is one of the most difficult decisions I face too. I'm starting to lean more toward folding here. The chips won here are less valuable than chips won later in the game but chips lost here are more valuable than chips lost later in the game, if that makes any sense. I don't want to be OOP against a big raiser and really we're only looking for 2 cards on the flop since we can't be comfortable with an all undercard flop either. IMHO SNGs are won from the 75/150 blind level on and so I think we can toss TT here and preserve our stack. Would love to run this by Moshman.

 

[Makwa]

Simply put, you want to be able to win 20X your bet or call when set mining w lo pr, position or no (unless u r planning c bet or float to steal from position). In this case you can win only 10X the bet roughly, implied odds are too low to call. Wait for premium spots/hands in early stages of these things. 10s OOP facing a significant raise is not it.

 

[Western mail]

This is one of the most difficult decisions I face too. I'm starting to lean more toward folding here. The chips won here are less valuable than chips won later in the game but chips lost here are more valuable than chips lost later in the game, if that makes any sense. I don't want to be OOP against a big raiser and really we're only looking for 2 cards on the flop since we can't be comfortable with an all undercard flop either. IMHO SNGs are won from the 75/150 blind level on and so I think we can toss TT here and preserve our stack. Would love to run this by Moshman.

Good point there about the chip value.A few hundred chips here wont give you much of an edge early on.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

OTB we could make a case for calling, but OOP with no reads and a strong but vulnerable hand isn't really a situation we want to be getting into in early SNG play. Just toss it.

 

[Numbah 0ne]

Folding seems so weak here. I'm thinking raise this to about 325-350. Create some position for yourself and bet a smart flop. qq-aa is liable to reraise here which you would of course then let go. Calling seems like the worst decision here cuz most likely your folding to a continuation. Pretty much either take control of the pot and gain some info by raising or fold. I think calling here is horrid.

 

[Western mail]

Folding seems so weak here. I'm thinking raise this to about 325-350. Create some position for yourself and bet a smart flop. qq-aa is liable to reraise here which you would of course then let go. Calling seems like the worst decision here cuz most likely your folding to a continuation. Pretty much either take control of the pot and gain some info by raising or fold. I think calling here is horrid.

Reraising here is criminal especially 350,thats almost a third of your stack with a weak pair.Sorry dont agree with that.You could already be crushed by bigger pairs or flipping against aq,ak.You dont want to be flipping at level one of an sng.

 

[Numbah 0ne]

Reraising here is criminal especially 350,thats almost a third of your stack with a weak pair.Sorry dont agree with that.You could already be crushed by bigger pairs or flipping against aq,ak.You dont want to be flipping at level one of an sng.

True, but if you do reraise here your gonna find out a lot more and possibly save yourself from getting stacked on later streets. You are at best on a coinflip on the flop but if that flop comes 8 high after a flat call I'm gonna be pretty confident I got this hand. On the other hand if it comes A or K high and I just flat called I could get myself into trouble floating and maybe overthinking the hand. IDK, for me I wanna raise this up. It's tough just because ur in the SB but I hate to give up on a pot with a decent hand by folding or flat calling here. I'm more against the call then the fold though.

 

[Western mail]

Surely sticking a third of your stack in to see a flop with likely overcards then folding is spewy

 

[WiZZiM]

True, but if you do reraise here your gonna find out a lot more and possibly save yourself from getting stacked on later streets. You are at best on a coinflip on the flop but if that flop comes 8 high after a flat call I'm gonna be pretty confident I got this hand. On the other hand if it comes A or K high and I just flat called I could get myself into trouble floating and maybe overthinking the hand. IDK, for me I wanna raise this up. It's tough just because ur in the SB but I hate to give up on a pot with a decent hand by folding or flat calling here. I'm more against the call then the fold though.

raising for information is almost always a mistake... especially here... 10 10 pretty much has the same value as 22 in this situation and should be played like a small pocket pair... in later blind rounds sure this becomes closer to a push.. and also we have some more reads on players.. whos active whos tight whos a reg etc..

with no reads we have to assume his range here is 77+ aj+ KQsuited... 10's do "ok" against this range but not really good enough to justify reraising.. and his raise should be stronger here too as he raised a limper..

so if we raise to 350 like you suggest and get called.. what info have we found out? its likely his range is around about what i mentioned.. then we get to play post flop OOP when theres likely to be over cards which hit his range quite well..

 

[baudib1]

At what point do you guys feel comfortable playing pairs at this level for overpair value?

 

[cardplayer52]

ugly spot here.but judging by his raise size this guy doesnt seem to know what he doing. i think i'm snap shoving JJ+ AK here but TT is iffy. you need 55% equity vs his range to get in here. i think i'm folding TT here.

 

[OzExorcist]

Thanks heaps guys. Results are kinda anti-climactic in this one: I folded, largely based on the reasoning Jilly provided.

I figured if I raise and everybody else folds I'm only winning a tiny pot, if I raise and the villain shoves I've probably got to fold, if I raise and the villain (and potentially UTG as well) flat calls I'm hating life in general because I'm OOP in a big pot with no reads to go on. I thought briefly about set mining but the bet seemed a little large for that unless I can count on UTG calling and both of them stacking off if I hit.

So we risk a bunch of chips when most of the time either we'll a small pot (which really doesn't help us much at this stage of the game) or we'll be forced to fold. I just figured it was all too hard and threw the hand in.

I've run into a few spots lately similar to this (more often with JJ than TT or lower) where I've either flat called or three-bet and been flatted then been stacked on an undercard flop because the villain was holding KK/QQ so avoiding that situation altogether was probably weighing on my mind too.

 

[dufferdevon]

Personally I would have re-raised it pre-flop as well. Fold to an over the top raise. If he flat calls, I hate it. See below.

PokerStars Game #40535339123: Tournament #248352902, $30+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2010/03/01 21:40:08 ET
Table '248352902 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: djgolfcan (2945 in chips)
Seat 2: Iron Air (1360 in chips)
Seat 3: HellRayzer55 (2030 in chips)
Seat 5: zadignose (1770 in chips)
Seat 6: MJstud (1390 in chips)
Seat 7: gastonb111 (2210 in chips)
Seat 9: richyrich365 (1795 in chips)
HellRayzer55: posts small blind 50
zadignose: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to djgolfcan [Tc Ts]
MJstud: folds
gastonb111: raises 100 to 200
richyrich365: folds
djgolfcan: raises 400 to 600
Iron Air: folds
HellRayzer55: folds
zadignose: folds
gastonb111: calls 400
*** FLOP *** [Jh 2c 8d]
gastonb111: checks
djgolfcan: checks
*** TURN *** [Jh 2c 8d] [4s]
gastonb111: checks
djgolfcan: checks
*** RIVER *** [Jh 2c 8d 4s] [6s]
gastonb111: checks
djgolfcan: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
gastonb111: shows [9s Ks] (high card King)
djgolfcan: shows [Tc Ts] (a pair of Tens)
djgolfcan collected 1350 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1350 | Rake 0
Board [Jh 2c 8d 4s 6s]
Seat 1: djgolfcan showed [Tc Ts] and won (1350) with a pair of Tens
Seat 2: Iron Air (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: HellRayzer55 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: zadignose (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: MJstud folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: gastonb111 showed [9s Ks] and lost with high card King
Seat 9: richyrich365 folded before Flop (didn't bet)