$5 NLHE: QQ gets 3bet

[S93]

$5 NL HE: QQ gets 3bet

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 23/9/3

(125/250 blinds, 25 ante) NL Hold'em Tourney, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

UTG+1: 4,910 (19.6 bb)
MP1: 4,752 (19 bb)
Hero (MP2): 7,935 (31.7 bb)
BTN: 10,153 (40.6 bb)
SB: 12,720 (50.9 bb)
BB: 8,630 (34.5 bb)
MP3: 7,510 (30 bb)
CO: 26,067 (104.3 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP2 with Q

Q

MP3 folds, CO calls 250, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls 250, Hero raises to 1,250, 2 folds, BB raises to 3,750

Villain is 23/9/3 after 91 hands with 0% 3bet.
Where some way from the bubble and im about average stacked.
Kinda akward spot, do i just get it in, call and shove non A,K flops or fold?

 

[RhiNy]

I think just call and see if an A or K hits on flop... if you put him on AA or KK preflop, fold it...

 

[sky4ever]

Don`t you have any info about this player ? What is his 3betting range ?
Would he 3 bet you with a medium pair ?
In this cases, if I don`t have any information on the player I would just call and fold if a A or a K hits the flop, if I saw him 3-bet with 88 to JJ or any weaker hands I would shove preflop.Folding is something I would do just in case he plays really tight.

 

[vanquish]

all-in! you have 30 BBs and there a bunch of limpers and antes to make the pot extra juicy and the dead money worth the shove

 

[JohnnyFronts]

First of all, what's with the positions? MP acting first then the CO acting next?... Assuming this is an error with the HH converter or a typo (and assuming each player acts in turn) you have 2 limpers, a raise it to a large but standard amount, and a raise by a tight player that has you covered. This range REEKS of a JJ+ and AK, with more weight on the top of that range, making this a fold.

0% 3bet + tight PFR% + a bigger stack than you = fold. You have a good stack. Keep it. Pick off shorties and chip up without risking your tourney life.

 

[vanquish]

First of all, what's with the positions? MP acting first then the CO acting next?... Assuming this is an error with the HH converter or a typo (and assuming each player acts in turn) you have 2 limpers, a raise it to a large but standard amount, and a raise by a tight player that has you covered. This range REEKS of a JJ+ and AK, with more weight on the top of that range, making this a fold.

0% 3bet + tight PFR% + a bigger stack than you = fold. You have a good stack. Keep it. Pick off shorties and chip up without risking your tourney life.

you can't expect to win a tournament when you're folding the 3rd best starting hand in a v juicy pot during ante period 30 BBs deep, esp in a spot like this where villain's range is widened by the extra money in the pot and the dynamic that hero could be bluffing (given the limpers, etc)

edit: and remember that just bc villain's 3bet % is 0% over 91 hands doesn't make his 3bet range JJ+, AK. it's almost certainly wider

 

[JohnnyFronts]

you can't expect to win a tournament when you're folding the 3rd best starting hand in a v juicy pot during ante period 30 BBs deep, esp in a spot like this where villain's range is widened by the extra money in the pot and the dynamic that hero could be bluffing (given the limpers, etc)

edit: and remember that just bc villain's 3bet % is 0% over 91 hands doesn't make his 3bet range JJ+, AK. it's almost certainly wider

Ugh, I must be drunk. My last like 3 posts were done with little thought. You are right, it can be wider given all the dough in there. This would be a spot where a good read wil help lots. Ill change my rply. I can see shove call or fold.

 

[robert_wrath]

This hand has truly bothered me for 10 minutes. After long deliberation, I've come up with conclusion to this problem. Your raise of 5 times the big blind usually tells good players your holding a pair which doesn't want a caller to go in with a weak to mid marginal hand. Here's the catch, Villian three bet you 2.5 times you initial raise. If indeed he had a top tier 1 hand, wouldn't a raise to 2,450 - 3,150 be more applicable of a trap call? His reraise is to prevent you from seeing the flop. It is proper to shove at this point. Get ready for a race, I belive your ahead.

 

[S93]

This hand has truly bothered me for 10 minutes. After long deliberation, I've come up with conclusion to this problem. Your raise of 5 times the big blind usually tells good players your holding a pair which doesn't want a caller to go in with a weak to mid marginal hand. Here's the catch, Villian three bet you 2.5 times you initial raise. If indeed he had a top tier 1 hand, wouldn't a raise to 2,450 - 3,150 be more applicable of a trap call? His reraise is to prevent you from seeing the flop. It is proper to shove at this point. Get ready for a race, I belive your ahead.

Im raising here with a pretty wide range since i have postion and both limpers are tight/passive fish with like 50%+ limp/call and 75%+ fold to cbet, so if been trying to iso raise them when i could and take it down with a c-bet.
If villain has noticed that he might be widening his 3-bet range but the question is how many micro mtt players actualy pay attention to that?

Oh and the HH converter has obvs. messed up since i have postion on both limpers and 3bettor.

 

[robert_wrath]

Im raising here with a pretty wide range since i have postion and both limpers are tight/passive fish with like 50%+ limp/call and 75%+ fold to cbet, so if been trying to iso raise them when i could and take it down with a c-bet.
If villain has noticed that he might be widening his 3-bet range but the question is how many micro mtt players actualy pay attention to that?

Oh and the HH converter has obvs. messed up since i have postion on both limpers and 3bettor.

No offense, but are your intentions to scoop the limper calls/blinds or to win this tournament. Yes, you are taking a chance with minimal risk of losing on the preflop showdown, however, it seems your uncomfortable knowing his statistics of play. Yes he's a solid player, but why the big 3 bet re raise? I'm sure you have encountered this situation in the past ( perhaps not with Queens ), back track predicaments similar to this and compare the results. Notice anything?

 

[S93]

No offense, but are your intentions to scoop the limper calls/blinds or to win this tournament. Yes, you are taking a chance with minimal risk of losing on the preflop showdown, however, it seems your uncomfortable knowing his statistics of play. Yes he's a solid player, but why the big 3 bet re raise? I'm sure you have encountered this situation in the past ( perhaps not with Queens ), back track predicaments similar to this and compare the results. Notice anything?

Iso raising a pair of weak players that fold to much post flop and play fit and fold is alot saver and more profitable then trying a straight up blind steal(because at this table i had a aggresive player on my direct left, he is not involved in this hand) imo.
To win a tourney u have to scoop up blinds to maintain your stack, not that any of this has anything to do with this hand, just mentioned it cause that dynamic might be playing in.

As for the 3bettor i wouldnt call him a solid player, i didnt notice him much but looking through my DB he was calling way to much OOP and was to sticky postflop.

I also dont consider his 3bet big, its actualy on the small side since its giving my decent odds to call.
He is just 3betting a standard 3x my raise(if stacks where deeper and i was in his shoes i would have maked it 4x do to beeing OOP and that dead chips in the pot).

And yes if been in this situation many time before and looking at similar hands villain shows up with anything from AT,KQ,22 to AA.

 

[vanquish]

Iso raising a pair of weak players that fold to much post flop and play fit and fold is alot saver and more profitable then trying a straight up blind steal(because at this table i had a aggresive player on my direct left, he is not involved in this hand) imo.
To win a tourney u have to scoop up blinds to maintain your stack, not that any of this has anything to do with this hand, just mentioned it cause that dynamic might be playing in.

As for the 3bettor i wouldnt call him a solid player, i didnt notice him much but looking through my DB he was calling way to much OOP and was to sticky postflop.

I also dont consider his 3bet big, its actualy on the small side since its giving my decent odds to call.
He is just 3betting a standard 3x my raise(if stacks where deeper and i was in his shoes i would have maked it 4x do to beeing OOP and that dead chips in the pot).

And yes if been in this situation many time before and looking at similar hands villain shows up with anything from AT,KQ,22 to AA.

basically he should be 3betting you here with a range you're ahead of. you should shove because he will talk himself into calling with a wide range anyways, and even if his actual 4b-shove-calling range is super tight (such as JJ+, AK), you still have equity against it and there's a ton of dead money in the pot.

calling his 3bet sucks because you'll often lose action from hands you beat (such as when he has 99 and flop comes QJ3) and you'll often be faced with a tough decision for your stack (such as when he cbets on a board of KJ9 two tone).

save yourself the hassle and just 4bet shove

 

[FreezerJumps]

If you call, he's likely to put you all in on a wide range of flops, whether he hits or not, just because the pot will already be so big. If there's any A, K, flush or straight cards, you're going to have to fold half your chips away. I say push, you're quite likely ahead, and if not, that's life.

 

[robert_wrath]

Iso raising a pair of weak players that fold to much post flop and play fit and fold is alot saver and more profitable then trying a straight up blind steal(because at this table i had a aggresive player on my direct left, he is not involved in this hand) imo.
To win a tourney u have to scoop up blinds to maintain your stack, not that any of this has anything to do with this hand, just mentioned it cause that dynamic might be playing in.

As for the 3bettor i wouldnt call him a solid player, i didnt notice him much but looking through my DB he was calling way to much OOP and was to sticky postflop.

I also dont consider his 3bet big, its actualy on the small side since its giving my decent odds to call.
He is just 3betting a standard 3x my raise(if stacks where deeper and i was in his shoes i would have maked it 4x do to beeing OOP and that dead chips in the pot).

And yes if been in this situation many time before and looking at similar hands villain shows up with anything from AT,KQ,22 to AA.

I appreciate the posts and furthermore love the argument Sindri. I know you're in an irrational state of mind, but ask yourself this question: Do I want to play small ball pots all the way up till I'm dealt pocket Kings/Aces, out play my opponent on the flop or take my chances of winning a huge pot with a Tier 1 made solid hand all in?

 

[KoRnholio]

Folding would take a really solid read, which we don't really have after so few hands. Calling would make the pot nearly 6k and we'd have 4k left behind. Even if an ace or king flops, we're still pot committed. I'd just get it in preflop.

 

[baudib1]

Shove or fold, and we need such a good read to be folding that shove is easily the better play.

I'd totally flat AA here and shove QQ+/AK.

JJ is close but unless we have a good read that he's a loose squeezer, fold is best.

Here's the thing: The BB SHOULD be 3-betting with a reasonably wide range that we just destroy. Because calling and playing fit or fold OOP with AQ/TT-JJ is just horrible. However, this is a $5 tournament so very often these types of players can avoid playing their hands face up. On the other hand, it increases the chance that he ends up with something really stupid like AQ/AJ or 99-.

 

[ImolAyrton]

There are a lot of limpers and the BB might think youre on something like Q or K high with a medium kicker.. I should rerais all in or fold.. no call

 

[viking999]

I like a shove.

IMO calling is pointless, because you are going to be getting 3:1 on an all-in after the flop. I'm not folding with an A or K on the board. Hell, I'm not even folding with both A and K on the board if there's a J or T giving me usually 6 outs. The pot odds are going to be too sick to get away. And I don't buy that "preserving tournament life" crap. This is nowhere near the big money, therefore I'm playing straight up +EV.

I also dislike a fold. If he's as tight as his stats indicate (which isn't much of a sure thing after only 91 hands), then his range may be close to as strong as QQ. However, there's already a hell of a lot of juice in that pot, and that means even if it's a close match-up you should shove.

 

[jdeliverer]

basically he should be 3betting you here with a range you're ahead of. you should shove because he will talk himself into calling with a wide range anyways, and even if his actual 4b-shove-calling range is super tight (such as JJ+, AK), you still have equity against it and there's a ton of dead money in the pot.

calling his 3bet sucks because you'll often lose action from hands you beat (such as when he has 99 and flop comes QJ3) and you'll often be faced with a tough decision for your stack (such as when he cbets on a board of KJ9 two tone).

save yourself the hassle and just 4bet shove

I agree.

 

[vanquish]

also this is one of those things where in a purely theoretical vacuum of all vacuums, it looks close, but when you look at it at face value, you have a really really good hand, get chips in plz

 

[chop]

what were the last hands he shown? if he's a tight player he could definitely have KK AA (which would totally dominate u) or even AK which is a coin flip.
I'd just call to see the flop, if u flop a set you're good, if not, and he keeps betting heavily i think i'd just fold. A good way to loosen up a tight player i guess, they can get frustrated when after waiting for so long for a good hand - people just fold to their bets and they get a small pot.
Shoving would be a good option if you had him covered, but as this is not the case, i wouldnt risk it.

 

[bolda3]

Looks like AA or KK. You could plain flat call this and if an A or K flops get away but even if board is 3 unders there is still the tought of the AA or KK. I flat call this and see how he plays it post flop.

 

[Implied Odds3]

If you can put him on AA or KK then i would fold, but, that's hard to do..
It makes it more likely since it is the first time he's 3-bet.

I push all in and hope he doesnt have aces or kings.. because you would be pot commited anyway on the flop.

 

[only_bridge]

I would put him on AA or KK, and fold.

 

[only_bridge]

But of course, it all depends on how the bidding has been going. What hand do you think he puts you on, is he a little bit tilted by something and so on.