$26 NLHE: Do I have choices?

[HomeBrewer]

$26 NL HE: Do I have choices?

full tilt poker Game #22587886120: $42,000 Guarantee (174234556), Table 122 - 500/1000 Ante 125 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:12:43 ET - 2010/07/25
Seat 1: HomeBrewin (10,698)
Seat 2: skydiveoslo (38,122)
Seat 3: iastep (23,854)
Seat 4: RicardoGranja (31,940)
Seat 5: Kolven123 (6,411)
Seat 6: snark17 (24,460)
Seat 7: kwkramer (34,471)
Seat 8: Endri_AA (17,395)
Seat 9: FranzenFischenF (28,464)
HomeBrewin antes 125
skydiveoslo antes 125
iastep antes 125
RicardoGranja antes 125
Kolven123 antes 125
snark17 antes 125
kwkramer antes 125
Endri_AA antes 125
FranzenFischenF antes 125
FranzenFischenF posts the small blind of 500
HomeBrewin posts the big blind of 1,000
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HomeBrewin [5s 5c]
skydiveoslo raises to 2,000
iastep folds
RicardoGranja calls 2,000
Kolven123 folds
snark17 folds
kwkramer folds
Endri_AA folds
FranzenFischenF folds
HomeBrewin...............................?

What now?

 

[HomeBrewer]

Oh and there are just under 600 people left with 365? getting paid of probably 4k+...in case that affects your opinion

 

[NL08_Rob]

With an M of about 4 if you jam I think you'll take this down preflop often enough to make it profitable. If called by both youve about 25%. Not bad to get over 30K

 

[HomeBrewer]

Any other thoughts? I did shove it all in, but was wondering if it is a poor play to consider flatting or laying this down.

 

[Zybomb]

I just dont think a 38k and a 30k stack r going to be folding to 8k more after investing 2k. I'd probably flat and then CRAI safe flops, and c/f scary ones. If the flop checks thru I'd open shove a blank turn

 

[No Brainer]

This is a fairly tough spot.

I don't think it is bad to shove if you think the two player's in the pot already could fold but with an UTG raise and early position call I don't think that will happen very often. Generally someone min raising UTG will have a decent hand to call you with and if he does then the ep caller will be getting a pretty good price to come along as well. Against two callers our pocket 5's are pretty much toast unless we hit our set.

Our other option is to fold. We leave ourselves with about 10 bbs after we post small blind next hand. We have a fairly nice button seat as when we get it the big blind only has about 20bbs so we could be shoving almost any two cards into him and hoping that we get past the small blind ok.

Out of the two I think I would prefer to fold this hand and wait for a better spot to shove.

 

[Rldetheflop]

This is a fairly tough spot.

I don't think it is bad to shove if you think the two player's in the pot already could fold but with an UTG raise and early position call I don't think that will happen very often. Generally someone min raising UTG will have a decent hand to call you with and if he does then the ep caller will be getting a pretty good price to come along as well. Against two callers our pocket 5's are pretty much toast unless we hit our set.

Our other option is to fold. We leave ourselves with about 10 bbs after we post small blind next hand. We have a fairly nice button seat as when we get it the big blind only has about 20bbs so we could be shoving almost any two cards into him and hoping that we get past the small blind ok.

Out of the two I think I would prefer to fold this hand and wait for a better spot to shove.

As I was reading the OP I was getting an Idea of how to respond but then I read Stubzy's post and he said everything already so +1 here.

 

[Xavier]

No way u can fold here because u only have to put 1000 in to a pot of 6625, 6.6 to 1.
Ur like 8 to 1 to hit a set on the flop so I think u have the odds to set mine as u might well double through another player if u get the set.

Shoving all in is also reasonable. You have some fold equity as the other players will have to put in another 8000 to call having only put 2000 so far.
You could also get called by overcards which would make you slight favourite.
You're risking being called by an overpair though.

I think I shove here and take a chance because ur M is dropping to about 3 if you just call and miss the set ( likely ) which would put you really short stacked.

 

[HomeBrewer]

I did shove as I said earlier, and UTG tanked and ended up making the call with KTo. The other guy also thought it out a while and then made the call with AJo. I was surprised to see what they turned over, but pretty much accepted my fate as I didn't see how I could fade that many cards. Sure enough a lot of paint and an ace on the flop showed me the door.

I thought this was a good hand to discuss. I honestly wanted to fold here, and just hope to pick up a decent hand in the next rotation. Just thought it could be a good spot to double/triple.

 

[Rldetheflop]

No way u can fold here because u only have to put 1000 in to a pot of 6625, 6.6 to 1.
Ur like 8 to 1 to hit a set on the flop so I think u have the odds to set mine as u might well double through another player if u get the set.

Shoving all in is also reasonable. You have some fold equity as the other players will have to put in another 8000 to call having only put 2000 so far.
You could also get called by overcards which would make you slight favourite.
You're risking being called by an overpair though.

I think I shove here and take a chance because ur M is dropping to about 3 if you just call and miss the set ( likely ) which would put you really short stacked.

You certainly can fold here and imo you should. Look with your M below 5 you are looking to get it in but you want to be first in or at least over an LP raise with a pair of 5's not over a EP raise and a call. You are not getting both to fold here and probably getting called by both which means at best your looking at 3 overs possibly 4 or worse an overpair or 2. You will be better off shoving with ATC from the button.

flatting as you mentioned is really no good cause basically we are set-mining and we shouldnt be doing that with an M this low becuase we have to save the little fold equity we have. .

 

[jaded848]

Not sure how icm applies to MTT's but I feel like this is a fold because it is likely at least one player will call your shove and I don't think you are ever ahead, either flipping or crushed.

 

[Zybomb]

While I agree (as per my first post) shoving is bad bc we dont have enough to make either player fold given their stack sizes, I catn imagine how FOLDING is better than calling. Even from a pure setmine perspective we are getting 6.6:1 on a call, just under what we need in direct pot odds to setmine, and factor in implied odds when we hit our set it clearly brings it over the top. We can also "play poker" and get it in on non set, safe flops

 

[HomeBrewer]

With 5's, what do you consider a "safe" non-set flop?

 

[Zybomb]

With 5's, what do you consider a "safe" non-set flop?

Flops that give us a pair and a straight draw (234 236 346 347 467 468 478) are all good -- we can probably expand this to all Non broadway boards and hope we arent up against a PP

 

[Xavier]

You certainly can fold here and imo you should. Look with your M below 5 you are looking to get it in but you want to be first in or at least over an LP raise with a pair of 5's not over a EP raise and a call. You are not getting both to fold here and probably getting called by both which means at best your looking at 3 overs possibly 4 or worse an overpair or 2. You will be better off shoving with ATC from the button.

flatting as you mentioned is really no good cause basically we are set-mining and we shouldnt be doing that with an M this low becuase we have to save the little fold equity we have. .

If I got it right your M is 3.5 after this hand if you fold.
If you're M was a bit bigger I wouldn't shove but the trouble with folding in these spots when you're this short stacked is you may not get a better hand before the blinds come right round again and blind you off.

Very often we will end up heads up as one player will fold and being in a coinflip is fine with dead money in the pot. Getting called by 2 players and 3 or 4 overcards isn't terrible either as we would have the best equity of the 3 players.

I think you have to take a chance here and shove hoping neither player has an overpair to call you.

Shoving All In >> Calling >> Folding

 

[Rldetheflop]

I guess this is where we differ. I would rather be heads up with ATC than 3 handed with 5's.

However let me say that I dont think shoving is horrible, Just that I prefer a fold here. I do however think flatting is bad we are only calling to set-mine and we just dont want to do that being this low on chips.

 

[No Brainer]

If you're M was a bit bigger I wouldn't shove but the trouble with folding in these spots when you're this short stacked is you may not get a better hand before the blinds come right round again and blind you off.

You're right, we may not get a better hand but there is a very good chance that we will get a better spot to do it.

Against an early position raiser and caller, considering that we do not have much fold equity the best we can hope for is 3 over cards, against A,Q and A,T we are 40-44%. Against 4 overcards, A,Q and J,K we are 30%-33%. Against an overpair and two overcards, 9,9 and A,J we are at just 18%, basically drawing to two outs.

Now if we shove any two cards next time it is folded around to us we will have to dodge 3 or 4 completely random hands. Obviously if one of them wakes up with a big hand then so be it but we could not miss that.

I think what I'm getting at is that with only 10bbs we have basically no fold equity over someone who has already shown strength but we will have fold equity against the people in the blinds.

 

[Xavier]

You're right, we may not get a better hand but there is a very good chance that we will get a better spot to do it.

Against an early position raiser and caller, considering that we do not have much fold equity the best we can hope for is 3 over cards, against A,Q and A,T we are 40-44%. Against 4 overcards, A,Q and J,K we are 30%-33%. Against an overpair and two overcards, 9,9 and A,J we are at just 18%, basically drawing to two outs.

The best we can really hope for is to be heads up against 2 overcards, which gives us 55% with dead money in the pot.

I don't see why you think its almost certain that both players will call.
If UTG just calls the second player will likely fold a lot of medium strength hands, rather than put another 8000 in when hes probably behind or just flipping.
The second player could fold hands like 77, 66, KQ, AJ, KJ, A10 etc in that spot.

In the example UTG surely shouldve mucked K10 after a call and all in after his UTG raise. Then the other player shouldve folded AJ after UTG called, but you're unlucky to be against such terrible players.

 

[Mr Whatever]

I was in a similar situation like this a few yrs ago in a tourn where I was dealt the same hand -exactly 55 in a 26$ guarantee not once but twice within a go around with a similiar chip stack to urs. ive been thinking about it for yrs. ive been thinking about it for awhile because at the time I wasn’t practicing good bankroll management skills and had like only 2 tokens. Lol.

It was funny because I was dealt 55 within less than 1 time around the table. The 1st time I got dealt the 55 I folded it. Because I knew at best the guy doing the raise had an ace or king ten suited or better and I knew the caller might have a similar hand or a pair, so at best im in a coin flip for my tourn life or im dominated with an over pair. At a best- they both are sharing the ace or king that justified the raise and all I have to do is avoid their kicker. But even then with 5s its gonna be in trouble because their kicker is gonna be better than a 5.

The 1st time I folded 55 it would have been aq and kj vs my 55. The board came with little cards, they checked it down and I woulda won.

The next time I was dealt this hand (like 4 hands later) I let the results of the previous hand influence my decision and shoved. Bad idea. This time the initial raiser had 88 and the caller had aj su. I lost the hand and I was upset because I coulda just kept it simple and played it like a cash game situation and shoulda just called trying to hit the 5 on the flop and fold if I missed it or even better -just fold it because like in a cash game with little pairs ur gonna be in la la land if u don’t hit the set.

I believe 5s are just too low to shove with still a few times to go around like in ur situation. Id rather shove with a ace or king X with a little less chips than pray for a coin flip or be dominated. I say this because I like playing smallstack poker and it doesn’t bother me, but I don’t know if ur comfortable about that. and isnt funny sometimes after we do shove with lil pairs lose and get crippled that aa, kk or any premium hand alllll of a sudden shows up?

overall no matter what, it depends on what u think ur opponents are holding? are ur opponents rocks and gonna check it down if they miss that flop or aggressive? And it also matters on ur outlook on playing smallstack poker.

But if ur practicing good bankroll management (unlike me lol) it really wouldn’t matter either way because u got plenty more times to play in that tourn anyway.

gl

 

[HomeBrewer]

Thanks for the replies. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't way off base for thinking this wasn't an automatic all-in play for everyone.

 

[Zybomb]

I don't see why you think its almost certain that both players will call.
If UTG just calls the second player will likely fold a lot of medium strength hands, rather than put another 8000 in when hes probably behind or just flipping.
The second player could fold hands like 77, 66, KQ, AJ, KJ, A10 etc in that spot.

In the example UTG surely shouldve mucked K10 after a call and all in after his UTG raise. Then the other player shouldve folded AJ after UTG called, but you're unlucky to be against such terrible players.

The original raiser has almost 2:1 with no further betting (player is all in) on a call with a hand he opened UTG with. He also has 38k to start the hand so claling and losing still leaves him with 28k. To expect him to fold any hand he opened UTG with is wrong -- it's very unlikely. The 2nd villain is a little closer. He has only 30k to start to the hand, and he chose to just call the raise preflop, but if UTG calls he has almost 3:1 on a call and his call closes the action preflop -- it's slightly closer but he likely isn't folding either.

Had either of these players had less chips (say 20k stacks) or we had more, now it becomes a better scenario for us since calling and losing represents over half of their stack which might overcome favorable pot odds, thus our fold equity goes up

Bottom line is we arent getting close to the folds we need for this shove to have the fold equity that we want it to. We have nearly 7:1 on a call. Flat

 

[Rldetheflop]

The original raiser has almost 2:1 with no further betting (player is all in) on a call with a hand he opened UTG with. He also has 38k to start the hand so claling and losing still leaves him with 28k. To expect him to fold any hand he opened UTG with is wrong -- it's very unlikely. The 2nd villain is a little closer. He has only 30k to start to the hand, and he chose to just call the raise preflop, but if UTG calls he has almost 3:1 on a call and his call closes the action preflop -- it's slightly closer but he likely isn't folding either.

Had either of these players had less chips (say 20k stacks) or we had more, now it becomes a better scenario for us since calling and losing represents over half of their stack which might overcome favorable pot odds, thus our fold equity goes up

Bottom line is we arent getting close to the folds we need for this shove to have the fold equity that we want it to. We have nearly 7:1 on a call. Flat

you keep saying 7-1 on a call. We only call to set-mine here. we dont set-mine on pot odds we set-mine on implied odds which you do not have here you never will with an M this low thats why we dont set-mine in these situations it just costs us some of the very little FE we have left.

 

[Zybomb]

you keep saying 7-1 on a call. We only call to set-mine here. we dont set-mine on pot odds we set-mine on implied odds which you do not have here you never will with an M this low thats why we dont set-mine in these situations it just costs us some of the very little FE we have left.

Couple of points

1-We arent exclusively set mining here. There are favorable flops that we are going to commit the rest of our stack on that dont include a 5

2- You dont set mine on exclusively implied odds. Its a combination of both pot odds and implied odds. If we have 10:1 for example, we dont need to make an extra dollar to come out ahead in the long run...yes for large raise amounts in a tournament pot odds can be overlooked sometimes for stack preservation but Its a MIN raise which reps 1-10th of our stack to call. folding a hand that 1 - could be the best at the moment and 2 - can flop a monster to a min raise which only represents 1\10th of your stack w 7:1 is bonkers even if were JUST set mining here... but like I said were not. Were looking for favorable flops to get it in on, rather than shove pre when we anticipate being called by multiple opponents

3- Our fold equity is not effected by calling. Our fold equity by shoving preflop is the exact same with 8 and change BBs than it is with 9 and change BBs. If someone is calling 8.5 BBs allin pre, there are no hands in their 8.5BB calling range that they are folding for 9.5 BBs

4- blinds are high and were looking for opportunities to double up. flatting and picking up the pot uncontested after the flop is 2-3rds of a double up for us, while we arent risking our tournament life without seeing the majority of the board first

 

[Rldetheflop]

by this logic we should flat ATC hoping for a favorable flop to jam on.

There is a reason with an M this low we are in shove/fold mode. Because our decision is simple All-in or Fold.

 

[Zybomb]

No, bc ATC will show up with a pair 33% of the time. With 55 we will have a pair 100% of the time....slightly higher. Well also have a set 12% of the time,

also since it as brought up the whole "push-fold" thing isnt always accurate. Theres a lot of times saving a bullet (Stop n go) is more effective, as it can produce folds out of hands that missed the flop