duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
I think open folding 99 is waaaay too nitty even on the bubble. And I think open jamming 99 has reverse implied odds.
But that's just me.
did you read my post?
I think open folding 99 is waaaay too nitty even on the bubble. And I think open jamming 99 has reverse implied odds.
But that's just me.
I'm not trying to be overly critical, this was actually one of my leaks that I had to fix, but there's no continuity to your train of thought. You have all these different factors that affect your decision at certain spots only.
Example, you're worried about the bubble when facing the 3-bet, but you weren't worried about the bubble when you raised with a mid-pair in EP. I'm not worried about the bubble when facing a 3bet. I'm not sure where you got that from. I actually planned on 4bet jamming until the 3rd player came in. My only concern with the bubble has to do with open jamming 16bb (a workable stack when average is only 20bb). Which I feel has reverse implied odds. You're worried about what hands call you, AK and JJ+, but you've completely thrown your read on the guy out the window, and oddly enough, your decision and read on the guy was completely thrown off when a non-factor 2nd villain decided to call for all his chips. I'm worried that only premiums call me when I open jam 16bb...which has nothing to do with my read on the guy because I had no read on him at all until I raised and he 3bet me. But I think you're correct that my plan was derailed when the 3rd player jammed for less which really should have no affect on my decision how to play with the 3bettor.
If you're worried about the bubble, fold pre. Mid pair in EP puts you in a really tough spot when facing a 3-bet that could potentially force all your chips in. LP is a different story but in EP, just give it up. Whenever you have a short stack in EP, before you raise, ask yourself if you're comfortable getting all your chips in pre with the hand. If you're not, then let it go.
Now, I'm assuming you were quick to type this up so I'll see if I can get the facts straight. As played, I'll start where you're deciding on the 19k call:
Pot: $94,000
So you're getting 4.5:1 if you call, which means you just need somewhere around 22% equity to justify the call. Let's check out Pokerstove, I have villain I (All-in) as a tight nit, shoving with premiums and pairs. I have villain 2 with a wider range, capable of 3-betting with suited connectors:
Equity:
Hero - 38%
Villain I - 38%
Villain 2 - 25%
So now you're getting the right equity, GREAT, but wait, that means villain 2 is getting the right odds too, AND he doesn't even have to make a decision. So if you call, you're playing a mid pair, out of position, basically giving free equity to villain 2. Yea we can't do that, so jamming is the right move. You mentioned that villain 2 likes pot odds, GREAT, let's hope he calls with Ax, KQ, suited connectors, basically what I'm saying is if he calls your shove, considering his range, you're a 1.5:1 favorite and getting 1:1 on your money for the side pot, with the favorable equity shown above in the main pot.
But let's say you shove, and he folds, considering Villain I's range, you're basically looking at a coin flip but you're getting 4.5:1 on your money. I think this is the real pearl in your post. I should use my read to attempt to get the 3bettor to fold and instantly win the small side pot and take a coin flip with the short stack with great pot odds.
TL;DR - If you're worried about the bubble, don't open and fold pre-flop in EP. I wasn't considering opening and folding preflop. But depending on how the hand developed I might fold post flopAs played pre-flop, insta-shove. As played on the flop and turn, check folding is fine, you can't do much on that flop.
did you read my post?
13.1%, 22+ A9s+ AJo+ K9s+ KQo QTs+ JTs. this is a nash shoving range ignoring ICM, from UTG+2 16bb deep.
we can tighten it a bit because people will be calling too widely, ICM makes us somewhat risk averse. but lets say people only call with JJ+ AK so 6 people left to act and JJ+ AK which is 3% of hands, so we win the pot without showdown .97^6 =83% of the time. the other 17% of the time we get it in with 33.3% equity. so our EV is .83*13500+.17(.333*213500+-100000*.667)=11205+12086+-11339=11,952 or about 2bb+ when they call that tightly we can actually shove any pair with roughly the same profit and can. 2bb is also a huge edge when we have 16bb. I can't imagine anyway we get a higher EV than that
.97^6 =83%
I'm no math wiz, but isn't your forecast of how often I get called off just a bit?
3% of hands are calling me, so if there were only 1 person left to act I would only get called 3% of the time, but with 6 people left to act I'm pretty sure the odds go up of 1 person holding a top 3% hand...right?
..0,97*0,97*0,97*0,97*0,97*0,97=0,83*100=83%
Which means 17% has chance someone has actually that 3% to make that call!
But against top3% we do not have equity 33,3%. We have 23,7%.
JJ+ AK so 6 people left to act and JJ+ AK which is 3% of hands
Against top 3% we do not have 33,3% equity!
Your range is 2,11% of the hands!
Used PkrCruncher to calculate it, which is slightly better then pokerstove!
thats why i went 1-.03=97% the chance any given opponent folds, and multiplied it by it self 6 times, i.e. the odds of everyone folding
I suppose I should just go with my initial plan and 4bet jam preflop.
I have history with the 3bettor and was about 70% confident that he was 3betting light to isolate me in position.
I'm not worried about the bubble when facing a 3bet. I'm not sure where you got that from. I actually planned on 4bet jamming until the 3rd player came in. My only concern with the bubble has to do with open jamming 16bb (a workable stack when average is only 20bb). Which I feel has reverse implied odds. I'm worried that only premiums call me when I open jam 16bb...which has nothing to do with my read on the guy because I had no read on him at all until I raised and he 3bet me. But I think you're correct that my plan was derailed when the 3rd player jammed for less which really should have no affect on my decision how to play with the 3bettor.
I wasn't considering opening and folding preflop. But depending on how the hand developed I might fold post flop
I think open folding 99 is waaaay too nitty even on the bubble. And I think open jamming 99 has reverse implied odds.
But that's just me.
You don't know what reverse implied odds means...and it's a trivial shove unless you are on a big bubble or something...it sounds like you aren't even really on the bubble, so whatever.
Pile them in.....and there is no way in hell the LAG is folding JJ here; that was good for laugh though.
I don't mind you opening, but your damn close to point where I just ship.....like right on the edge if there are antes, etc. Also, why are we opening so big if we are folding to a 3b by a LAG here?
he assumes you're flatting a good % in a spot like this?