$215 NLHE MTT: Line check early sunday mill

[duggs]

11th hand so no real reads, has limped once from cutoff before, previous hand indicated he is fish

thoughts on turn check and river bet

poker stars $200+$15 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t20/t40 Blinds - 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

UTG+2: t10520 263 BBs
MP1: t10040 251 BBs
MP2: t10020 250.50 BBs
CO: t9880 247 BBs
Hero (BTN): t10060 251.50 BBs
SB: t10020 250.50 BBs
BB: t9940 248.50 BBs
UTG: t9500 237.50 BBs
UTG+1: t10020 250.50 BBs

Pre Flop: (t60) Hero is BTN with Q A
UTG calls t40, 5 folds, Hero raises to t160, 1 fold, BB calls t120, UTG calls t120

Flop: (t500) A 4 K (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets t250, BB folds, UTG calls t250

Turn: (t1000) J (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: (t1000) K (2 players)
UTG bets t1000, Hero folds

Final Pot: t1000
UTG wins t1000

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

Looks like an OOP float. I would probably be calling his bet here. Why are you check folding when you hit TPGK? I'm generally happy if a fish calls my c-bets OOP when I've hit.

 

[Colbefc]

I would be calling all day, specially as you had a read on him being a fish.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

if we've got a read on him being a fish, why can't he have a K here?

especially since he pots it..

he's a fish, perfectly capable of showing down K7o when we call, I say good fold.. although i dunno why we're checking back the turn when we're value-owning him 90% of the time.

 

[BlueNowhere]

I don't like checking turn to fold river with TPTK. Not the best of rivers but he still has plenty of Jx, Ax and air that are value betting themselves for you .

 

[dwbrown7680]

Lead turn and check river or check turn and call the river, def one of those lines. Don't fold to this though.

 

[baudib1]

showing suits would help.

Turn check is bad imo, river fold is fine given he's probably not sophisticated enough to try to push you off a chop.

 

[BlueNowhere]

if we've got a read on him being a fish, why can't he have a K here?

especially since he pots it..

he's a fish, perfectly capable of showing down K7o when we call, I say good fold.. although i dunno why we're checking back the turn when we're value-owning him 90% of the time.

He can and I think he does do quite abit, but he needs to have us beat like 2/3 of the time to fold. Pot bet is a bit worrying but he was probably just mashing buttons.

 

[dwbrown7680]

Why is betting turn bad and then checking river when K pairs?

 

[duggs]

pokerstars - $200+$15|20/40 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

MP: 10,520.00
MP+1: 10,040.00
LP: 10,020.00
CO: 9,880.00
Hero (BTN): 10,060.00
SB: 10,020.00
BB: 9,940.00
UTG: 9,500.00
UTG+1: 10,020.00

SB posts SB 20.00, BB posts BB 40.00

Pre Flop: (60.00) Hero has Qd As

UTG calls 40.00, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 160.00, fold, BB calls 120.00, UTG calls 120.00

Flop: (500.00, 3 players) Ad 4s Kc
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets 250.00, fold, UTG calls 250.00

Turn: (1000.00, 2 players) Jc
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: (1000.00, 2 players) Ks
UTG bets 1,000.00, fold

UTG wins 1,000.00

 

[duggs]

I should clarify that this guy wasnt playing a wide range, but was just playing his range pretty passive pre and post flop.

I dont like betting turn as i dont think he has and Ax below 8-9s and 10o.
and i doubt we can get 3 streets against most of his range, as i gave him a continuing range on flop of like KQ KJ K10 AJ A10 AQ AK KK QQ JJ 1010 99 that is weighted towards AQ AJ and KQ KJ. of which QQ 1010 99 K10 all fold to a second barrel
I intended to bet the river on blanks but the K is a terrible card for us. and i would have called river had he not bombed it.
i think bet check bet gets looks fos and get looked up more often than bet bet.

 

[duggs]

Why is betting turn bad and then checking river when K pairs?

i just think we fold out so much that we can get value from on the river,

 

[duggs]

He can and I think he does do quite abit, but he needs to have us beat like 2/3 of the time to fold. Pot bet is a bit worrying but he was probably just mashing buttons.

given he is so passive i dont see him potting there with worse nearly enough

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

and i doubt we can get 3 streets against most of his range, as i gave him a continuing range on flop of like KQ KJ K10 AJ A10 AQ AK KK QQ JJ 1010 99 that is weighted towards AQ AJ and KQ KJ. of which QQ 1010 99 K10 all fold to a second barrel
I intended to bet the river on blanks but the K is a terrible card for us. and i would have called river had he not bombed it.
i think bet check bet gets looks fos and get looked up more often than bet bet.

AJ improved and thats about it, bet bet check over bet check bet.. he'll let you know if you're behind.

even if he's a TAPfish, he can and mostly will have worse and by checking back your missing value.

you hate a K,Q,J(?) river and a 10's going to lose you value.. as well as if a club peels off on the river your hand loses a bit more strength.

don't think its the best turn to pot control tbh.

 

[duggs]

if i check the river tho, after betting the turn, im getting called by better at the same frequency but less of what i beat is calling a second bet, so im losing value, as im basically never getting 3 streets of value once this turn comes off

 

[duggs]

Also i dont really hate J and Q rivers as much as i hate K, as a Q allows me to value bet and expect KJ KQ AQ AJ to call, and a jack doesnt really improve or weaken either of our ranges imo (apart from counterfeiting my kicker but i dont really see that as a big issue. K pretty much puts me ahead of AJ but nothing else that gets to the river let alone bombs it.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Him being passive should give you more of a reason to bet the turn. You miss a ton of value by checking turn and if he check/raises you on the turn or donks big into you on the river you have an easy release. I prefer betting 600ish on turn.

 

[BEERM4N]

i bet 300 otf then b/f turn ~600 and c/f river

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

if i check the river tho, after betting the turn, im getting called by better at the same frequency but less of what i beat is calling a second bet, so im losing value, as im basically never getting 3 streets of value once this turn comes off

what are you scared of him showing up with? I don't understand why TPTK isn't good vs a calling station.

I'm probably triple barreling here for value, bar the K showing up on the turn/river.

I doubt he folds an A ever, and yes you lose value from K's but make up for it the times he has a worse A and you own him for half his stack.

Also i dont really hate J and Q rivers as much as i hate K, as a Q allows me to value bet and expect KJ KQ AQ AJ to call, and a jack doesnt really improve or weaken either of our ranges imo (apart from counterfeiting my kicker but i dont really see that as a big issue. K pretty much puts me ahead of AJ but nothing else that gets to the river let alone bombs it.

obv K is the worst river, but a Q? do you think he pays you off with worse 2 pairs.. do we not prefer a brick river so we can value bet for more instead of having to bet small and give him the odds to make the call?

 

[duggs]

blanks are def preferable rivers to Q, I just dont see anything below A10 in his range really.
I just expect him to show up with KJ KQ AQ AJ A10(?) AK when we barrel the turn, and we are only ahead of KQ and A10, he isnt a calling station he just doesnt bet often, i labelled him a fish for only open limping, not for having a wide wide preflop or postflop range. where as bet check bet on blank, he shows up with the above range plus maybe QQ, 1010, and even 99 hero calling

 

[duggs]

obv K is the worst river, but a Q? do you think he pays you off with worse 2 pairs.. do we not prefer a brick river so we can value bet for more instead of having to bet small and give him the odds to make the call?

i think he does as i shouldnt have many 10s in my range compared to air+thin value bets with this line on that runout of cards

 

[duggs]

Lead turn and check river or check turn and call the river, def one of those lines. Don't fold to this though.

yea i would have called river if it was a normal sized bet

 

[duggs]

i bet 300 otf then b/f turn ~600 and c/f river

do you bet bigger into two opponents? i tend to bet smaller so i can balance it more cheaply when i am cbetting air. is this thinking wrong?

 

[BEERM4N]

do you bet bigger into two opponents? i tend to bet smaller so i can balance it more cheaply when i am cbetting air. is this thinking wrong?

Now i think about it i prob bet around 275 into single opponent on this board and like 325-350 into two opponents. Nope I like you thinking. But you really have to b/f this turn. roud: GL

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

ahh duggs too many posts! I really can't keep up.

bluffing into 2 or more opponents isn't too good imo, even with backdoor draws you're gonna have to bet big or get there to win the hand a fair bit of the time.

but this isn't the problem, we're betting for value aren't we?! bet bigger, we're 250bb deep, no point smallballin! personally I bet 400, he rarely has us beat on the flop.

and how ever bad he is, QQ/TT/99 doesn't call 2 barrels on this board, regardless of what line you take.

better to DB/TB and own the worse A's and K's that hang on, on top of the fact that if you were bluffing you'd TB instead of taking your line.

I hate the turn check against THIS player (I dunno how to bold) because even if he's got a tight range, atm we're crushing it and in the long run we'll make more by TBing.