$2 NLHE Rebuy: Quadruple All-In

[Marginal]

This hand also takes place during the rebuy period in case anybody cares. OP does not know what he is saying when he said it didn't. Every 2$ rebuy period ends after level 6 and 50/1 is level 6.

 

[TPC]

Btw, what I wanted to add to this point is that if we fold in this kind of situation, we are not the type of player who uses their stack to command the table. Last post for me because I realize all I have to say has been said and I am beginning to spam this thread.

How is that? The hand in the OP, there is only two options. Fold or call. And calling is for most of our stack. You don't command a table by calling huge shoves. You three bet, possibly four bet shove in spots where you have FE.

 

[Marginal]

How is that? The hand in the OP, there is only two options. Fold or call. And calling is for most of our stack. You don't command a table by calling huge shoves. You three bet, possibly four bet shove in spots where you have FE.

The people who playing big stack bully are willing to take these situations because they are extremely profitable and dont mind taking some risks. The persons that are not willing are those that play 12/8 and not the person who steals constantly.

 

[TPC]

That's a very broad and wrong assumption.

 

[Marginal]

No, its actually correct most of the time but I am not going to go into why because I think it is pretty obvious.

 

[TPC]

Sigh, I'm done with this thread

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

questions!

for the people saying easy call, how deep do effective stacks have to be for you to fold (if you think that such a point exists)?

for the people saying easy fold, how short do effective stacks have to be for you to call?

 

[politude]

Alright, I did not expect this thing to blow up into five pages of readable material (which I thank everyone for), the only other thing I remember from this tourney (it was a few days back), was that the guy who shoved first (MP2), was playing loose at the time, when UTG+1 raised to 350, and the loose player shoved, I had a good chance at the win.

I guess you could argue that had the other guys not shoved, I would have lost to a pair of queens anyways, but AKo vs KQo looks a WHOLE lot better than AKo vs KQo vs AQo vs AJo

Keep this going, I'm learning a lot.

 

[Debi]

Sindri, what have the replies been like on stox?

There have been 2 replies. One from a member (goretexg) who admits he does not play MTT's but has a well thought out reply that should be respected:

I am not a regular MTT player so my input would be limited. hopefully some of the other guys who specialize in this can answer your question. Id also like to hear what others have to say because this is a spot which is very tough for me too.

You are pretty deep (50+bb) and getting it in + losing would still leave you with a healthy stack. THe main goal should be accumulate as many chips as you can and the question is whether in these tournies you dominate a range which shoves over an EP raiser and whether the EP raisers range is not QQ+ always. I would think that you do, as this is a 2$ rebuy. Hands like AQ or AJs should show up here, as well as quite a few other worse hands which would justify a shove from you.

The other reply is from the Lead MTT coach at Stox - Matt Matros whose opinion should clearly be respected as well:

I don't know what ranges the typical $2 player has, but the optimal play is clearly to fold. The jammer should never have a hand worse than AK here.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Regarding the actual hand i have to say all the arguing itt is hilarious to me because i think it's a really tough spot and a pretty close decision. If we were (effectively) 10bbs deeper I'd be relatively happy to say fold and if we were 10bbs shorter I'd be happy to say call. If you think it's an 'obvious' call/fold you're, well, wrong.

Also it's pretty hilarious that someone bothered to post the hand on stox in the anticipation of everyone there going "LOL WHAT A STUPID QUESTION CLEARLY YOU CALL WHAT AN IDIOT LOL" in light of the responses there so far. Keep on truckin', guys!

 

[Jillychemung]

The other reply is from the Lead MTT coach at Stox - Matt Matros whose opinion should clearly be respected as well:

I don't know what ranges the typical $2 player has, but the optimal play is clearly to fold. The jammer should never have a hand worse than AK here.

IMHO this is where experience at the $2 level really changes your play - AND - can lead to bad plays at higher levels.

 

[GeoffLacey]

Also it's pretty hilarious that someone bothered to post the hand on stox in the anticipation of everyone there going "LOL WHAT A STUPID QUESTION CLEARLY YOU CALL WHAT AN IDIOT LOL" in light of the responses there so far. Keep on truckin', guys!

well fwiw i intended to post on 2p2 just to get a bunch more opinions on the hand, seen as the mtt community is much bigger there than here, and i'm sure that was sindri's intention too but w/e...

IMHO this is where experience at the $2 level really changes your play - AND - can lead to bad plays at higher levels.

yeah i'm really pretty shocked at that advice tbh

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

nice damage control there bro

 

[S93]

Regarding the actual hand i have to say all the arguing itt is hilarious to me because i think it's a really tough spot and a pretty close decision. If we were (effectively) 10bbs deeper I'd be relatively happy to say fold and if we were 10bbs shorter I'd be happy to say call. If you think it's an 'obvious' call/fold you're, well, wrong.

Also it's pretty hilarious that someone bothered to post the hand on stox in the anticipation of everyone there going "LOL WHAT A STUPID QUESTION CLEARLY YOU CALL WHAT AN IDIOT LOL" in light of the responses there so far. Keep on truckin', guys!

I suck at MTT and seeing how this was turning into a huge argument I honestly wanted to see what other people thought.
My only post in this thread was me saying I posted it on Stox because im very curious about what the optimal line is here.

But yeah read what u want into my intention and stay on your high horse...

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

eh i didn't even know it was you who posted it, i skimmed the thread and just saw the posts from people who've spent 99% of their time itt deriding the fold people saying "oh hey what are the stox responses???" and automatically assumed someone like geoff or riley or the mysterious banned dude who can't possibly expect any plea of "genuine curiosity" to be taken seriously given that they've just been taking the piss out of anyone saying fold had made the topic.

maybe there's a lesson in actually reading topics thoroughly in there somewhere but frankly i just got bored after the first dozen no-content "you're stupid" and "no you're stupid" posts and skimmed the rest. if i was wrong then i apologize - can we play "stop the derail" now?

(plus you changed your name which causes my brain to explode)

 

[S93]

No worrys mate, consider derail ended, just kinda pissed me off beeing lumped in with one side or another when I actualy never stated my opinion.

As for the hand it self I call here but then again if never been very good at MTTs and if never won a big MTT and maybe the fact I call here is part of the reason, I honestly dont know.
But when alot of people I respect the opinions of alot say its a call and other people i respect say its a fold I get confused errgo it got posted on stox(I was kinda disapointed how litle activity seems to be in the stox MTT forum though).

 

[Sean Pilgrim]

1. We don't need to hit when we're ahead.
2. We're praying we're not up against AA/KK when we have QQ or any other hand, too. The nice thing is we're up against AA/KK a lot less often. Also, as I said, this sort of action is almost NEVER KK/AA. This is, in fact, a pretty ridiculous shove by a bad player. If you don't like your chances with AK in a huge pot vs. a bad player, you probably don't like money.
3. Are you seriously suggesting that shipping 100% of your stack with AK is not a totally standard move that happens literally dozens of times in every MTT?

1. Maybe you don't need to hit when you are ahead, but you have to dodge a lot of BS cards.

2. QQ is never an all in hand in a 4 way all-in pot.

3. I see people risk their tournament life shoving AKo in non-optimal spots way too many times to count with a UTG raiser, MP re-raise, and BTN Shove

This hand also takes place during the re-buy period in case anybody cares. OP does not know what he is saying when he said it didn't. Every 2$ rebuy period ends after level 6 and 50/1 is level 6.

That makes a big difference, but losing this hand against 6 random cards would we top up and have an M of 7.5 with a 2k stack with blinds at 50/100? Worth it? Then we get to see blinds at 75/150 shortly thereafter. It's just a crappy situation to risk 75% of your stack when you have the whole table covered at the moment and with the rebuy period about to end.

If OP has the hand history I'd like to see how it played out.

 

[GeoffLacey]

If OP has the hand history I'd like to see how it played out.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but... uh, read the OP?

 

[jernest]

"Well if the entire table shoves in front of us, our aces chances have dropped dramatically, however now the amount of chips on the table makes the reward much, much, much greater, Yeah Ill risk getting popped out of the tourney for that. If I win, my stack will be healthy beyond beleif."

Now do you fold AK in the OP?

With this kinda of potential now - with every single player at the table all in before action gets to me, yeah Ill call that, probably quicker than I would with AA. Course I will be assuming all other As and Ks are distributed evenly amongst everybody else, probabably up against pairs, but in this new fantasy situation we are looking to QUINTUPLE up for sure and the risk is now worth it.

If your question is, do I try to little more than double up, with no idea who will follow me for 75% of my stack in response to an EP raise that is shoved over by someone who will cripple me if the board does not cooperate? No I still FOLD.

It may be the wrong move but its the best move at this stage in the tourney (for me fwiw anyway), on the bubble for 1/2 my stack maybe, with triple up potential - all day long. Hell Yeah. But the reward does not merit the risk and in this situation, unless the other 7K stack shoves in with me, I am not offered the same incintive as every lucky F%&#r behind me who have far fewer chips and are given the option to try to double, triple, or (in the case of OP call) Quadruple up before they can make their decision.

Having the entire tables chips in the middle of the table infront of me, with AA on the button is nowhere the same as holding AK in early mid position with a raise and shove for minimal reward. The two situations are not comparable, or if they are I missed it.

 

[Sean Pilgrim]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but... uh, read the OP?

Sorry 2 hours of sleep last night... brain not functioning correctly earlier lol... 5 pages later totally forgot the results were in the OP

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

what did everyone get bored of this thread at the same time?

questions!

for the people saying easy call, how deep do effective stacks have to be for you to fold (if you think that such a point exists)?

for the people saying easy fold, how short do effective stacks have to be for you to call?

 

[Jillychemung]

for the people saying easy call, how deep do effective stacks have to be for you to fold (if you think that such a point exists)?

My M=400 Villains M=200+

 

[jernest]

questions!

for the people saying easy call, how deep do effective stacks have to be for you to fold (if you think that such a point exists)?

for the people saying easy fold, how short do effective stacks have to be for you to call?

not bored, but I dont care about how short/deep the stacks are; in as much as; to make a call like this... which will bring my stack down to a little more than starting stacks (i.e. we cant even rebuy without losing more chips).

I will call and or shove in two situations here:
1) Either the shover has same or more chips than us, or
2) all raises in front of us ,by themselves, would at least equal a double up (preferably more) for us to make it worth it at this point with these stacks IMHO.

I don't care about the risk, the risk would be fine for more reward. Just in this situation we could be crippled to an extent that is quite awkward, I would rather bust out and then double rebuy here, than to potentially get knocked down to ~2k at this time in the rebuy.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

what did everyone get bored of this thread at the same time?

Because it suddenly became painfully difficult to prance around talking about how LOLworthy it is.

The point is to lambast people who our heros think are stupid so it makes us look smart instead of discussing the merits of different plays. The moment the value of our own position becomes murky then there is no safety for lambastaments anymore and we go away.

To be honest I think it is a great thread and the topic has made me think a little more about poker situations and how two very extreme positions both have merit.

 

[S93]

I had to google what lambast means.
My english aperantly is worse then i thought .