$2.25 NLHE: Playing 8-8 vs new player to table

[ryodejaneiro]

$2.25 NL HE: Playing 8-8 vs new player to table

Hey all - I wanted to get some feedback about this hand below. Specifically, I'm wondering if I should've done something different pre/post-flop. Just to add a bit more info, the player that I was up against was recently moved to my table. I only saw him play 4 hands (3 limp/calls, 1 fold) after he was moved to my table.

Stacks:
* BB with 7404
* UTG with 4800
* UTG+1 with 7157
* MP1 with 4305
* MP2 with 1780
* CO with 6838
* BTN with 3963
* SB with 5521

Blinds:
Site: full tilt poker
* * Dealt to MP1:8♠ 8♣
* * Sklansky group 4
Preflop:
* * UTG raises to 240
* * 1 players fold.
* * Hero calls [240]
* * 5 players fold.
* * BB calls [120]
* * Total folds this street: 6
* * Potsize: 780
Flop:
* * Q♣ 5♣ 9♦
* * BB checks
* * UTG bets [240]
* * Hero raises to 600
* * 1 players fold.
* * UTG calls [360]
* * Total folds this street: 1
* * Potsize: 1980
Turn:
* * K♣
* * UTG bets [960]
* * 1 players fold.
* * Uncalled bet of 960 returned to UTG
* * UTG wins the pot (1,980)
* * Total folds this street: 1

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edit: edited title

 

[Jillychemung]

Preflop, raise this to ~1080 since UTG has limped so much.

As played the almost min-raise does nothing for you other than tell UTG you have a middle pair.

 

[ryodejaneiro]

So you would suggest a 4.5x preflop raise, as opposed to anything smaller like 2.5x to 3x (600 to 720)? I ask because 1080 is about 25% of my stack and that seems to be quite a bit for middle pocket pair.

 

[Jillychemung]

If you don't account for limpers when you make your raises then that is a hole you need to plug. My standard raise into an unopened pot from all positions is 3.5xBB when no antes are involved. If there are limpers then it is 3.5xBB+1BB/limp. If you don't account for the limpers then you give great odds for the LP players to play a wider range of hands.

You only posted a read for the UTG player so there is nothing to tell us to treat the LP players anyway other than 'typical' for this buyin level.

You have a known limper and we assume that everyone else knows that UTG is a limper. So your choice here is to fold/call/raise. 88 is too good to fold here for anyone other than a huge nit. If you call then you a practically limited to set mining (hitting your 2 outs) and you open yourself up to one of the LP players to squeeze you with a raise.

So that leaves us with raising. Now how much?
3xBB or smaller only inflates the pot and gives LP players good odds to call with a very WIDE range thus gaining you no info as to thier hand strength - scratch this.
Shoving is a huge overbet and screams 'Please don't call me' and at this level you will very often get players with overcards calling you since they have no decision other than call or fold - scratch this.
Standard raise of (3xBB-3.5xBB + 1BB/limper) disguises your hand strength other than saying 'I have a big hand' plus with 3K behind you are well set up to naturally shove a lot of flops. You are at a point in the tournament with stack sizes and blind levels where you need to be accumlating chips instead of waiting around to get into a push/fold mode. This is the time to build your stack or go home.

 

[djsneak]

I ask because 1080 is about 25% of my stack and that seems to be quite a bit for middle pocket pair.

I agree you should be think that is also 25% of the villains stack. Is middle pair worth your entire stack because if he call 1080 what C-bet will he fold?

 

[Melkor]

I completely disagree that only a huge nit would fold 88 even to an UTG limp. However, UTG hasn't limped, he has raised, and that worries me if he has shown even in 4 hands that he likes limping.

For me, this is a muck preflop. I consider folding even if I am opening with 88 in MP1 at a full table and probably mix between folding and raising. To an UTG raise I dislike calling and raising, especially raising, for three reasons:

1. The amount of players still to act behind us. We can't raise to 700-1000 and then fold to a shove. The amount of players to act behind us, 6 in total if we call and 7 if we raise (goes back to UTG) stinks and we are in awkward land if someone raises after the limp and we have tossed in 250 to fold when UTG calls and we get 3 or 4:1. Not good.

2. The gap concept. 88 is simply not strong enough to be raising UTG and we need a stronger hand to call. 88 isn't it.

3. What flop are you wanting to see. We have two eights left in the deck. Overcards are very likely to fall, at least one more likely two. We are stuck when they do. Q 9 x on the flop like we got is pretty good and look how awkward it is. Imagine if we raise to 750 preflop and UTG calls. Pot is over 1500. We are checked to on the flop and only on a silly dangerous board can we not c-bet. We c-bet 1000 and get shoved all-in. Do we fold leaving half our stack in there on 88? Or do we call and be ahead really rarely.

Also, if we raise, UTG folds about never. How many UTG raisers in tournies are doing it with cards that can't take a reraise? Few.

This poor flop thing goes for calling too. We can see so few flops we like. Even three unders and we get action means 99-AA are well within an UTG raisers range. That is providing we get to the flop without some squeezing us preflop.

In this spot, 88 is a clear fold preflop, whether UTG raised, like he did here, or even limped.

As for how its played, I fold flop as we have no reads, stats or inclination he is doing this with air and we have to fold turn.

 

[Jillychemung]

I completely disagree that only a huge nit would fold 88 even to an UTG limp. However, UTG hasn't limped, he has raised, and that worries me if he has shown even in 4 hands that he likes limping.

Well, dang, did I mess this one up I guess this is what we get when the blinds are not explicitly listed but they are easily deduced from the HH so no excuse there for me. My apology to the OP. Given that it is a minraise UTG folding 88 preflop is easy.

 

[Melkor]

Well, dang, did I mess this one up I guess this is what we get when the blinds are not explicitly listed but they are easily deduced from the HH so no excuse there for me. My apology to the OP. Given that it is a minraise UTG folding 88 preflop is easy.

I kinda guessed that actually from how you were talking, haha, but I had just written that long ass post and cba changing it. Either way I was just letting OP know why not to do either preflop after the raise.

 

[Aaronftw]

After watching a decent amount of wsop, PPT and things like that online and on television you pick up a few hints. One thing i remember after watching howard lederer folding pocket 3's from utg2 was a small helpfull piece of imformation stating "The oods of someone holding a bigger pocket pair are %40" could be worded wrong but it was along those lines.

Melkor put it perfectly, no information best you can hope for is flopping a set, you have NO idea where you are even if you raise 3.5XBB. Call praying to hit one of your other two 8's or fold here.

Jillychemung also had a great point stating about taking limpers into accounts of your raising its stated 1bb extra per limper.

You definetly need more info on this guy, id fold.

 

[ryodejaneiro]

Thanks for the feedback guys - some good points that I will be sure to consider next time around. This was my first buy-in poker game in a long time (not that it's an excuse) and up until this particular hand, I was doing okay. I had a good feel for the table, but I was definitely cautious of going up against the new guy. I didn't give too much consideration to folding my hand preflop (probably would've done so if it were smaller pocket pairs) but given the lack of information, I agree that a fold here was likely the best option. BTW, no need for an apology Jillychemung - I appreciate you taking the time to give feedback.