$1.50 buy in stars limit game JJ in early position

[Ronaldadio]

I know it was only a small buy in, but do I just put this down to bad luck??? Could I or should I have slowed up???

PokerStars Game #9049689435: Tournament #45413068, $1.50+$0.15 Hold'em Limit - Level IV (100/200) - 2007/03/23 - 15:45:36 (ET) Table '45413068 9' 9-max Seat #4 is the button Seat 1: schellegerd (4875 in chips) Seat 2: saimasee (1240 in chips) Seat 3: Kittress (2403 in chips) Seat 4: limonka (2135 in chips) Seat 5: Loak08 (3545 in chips) Seat 6: xxxx35 (2830 in chips) Seat 7: Zonard Oudin (1730 in chips) Seat 8: ronaldadio (1155 in chips) Seat 9: iron54 (1100 in chips)
Loak08: posts small blind 50
xxxx35: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ronaldadio [Js Jh]
Loak08 said, "gg"
Zonard Oudin: calls 100
Loak08 said, ""
ronaldadio: calls 100
iron54: folds
schellegerd: calls 100
saimasee: folds
Kittress: calls 100
limonka: folds
Loak08: calls 50
xxxx35: checks
*** FLOP *** [Jd 4c 5s]
Loak08: checks
xxxx35: checks
Zonard Oudin: checks
ronaldadio: bets 100
schellegerd: calls 100
Kittress: folds
Loak08: folds
xxxx35: folds
Zonard Oudin: calls 100
*** TURN *** [Jd 4c 5s] [7s]
Zonard Oudin: checks
ronaldadio: bets 200
schellegerd: calls 200
Zonard Oudin: folds
*** RIVER *** [Jd 4c 5s 7s] [2h]
ronaldadio: bets 200
schellegerd: raises 200 to 400
ronaldadio: raises 200 to 600
schellegerd: raises 200 to 800
Betting is capped
ronaldadio: calls 155 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
schellegerd: shows [Ac 3h] (a straight, Ace to Five)
ronaldadio: shows [Js Jh] (three of a kind, Jacks) schellegerd collected 2810 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2810 | Rake 0
Board [Jd 4c 5s 7s 2h]
Seat 1: schellegerd showed [Ac 3h] and won (2810) with a straight, Ace to Five Seat 2: saimasee folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: Kittress folded on the Flop Seat 4: limonka (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: Loak08 (small blind) folded on the Flop Seat 6: xxxx35 (big blind) folded on the Flop Seat 7: Zonard Oudin folded on the Turn Seat 8: ronaldadio showed [Js Jh] and lost with three of a kind, Jacks Seat 9: iron54 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

 

[tosborn]

First off a minimum 3BB (300) preflop bet should have been played if not pushed given stack size.

Second there is no way you should have let the flop go without pushing.

You gave proper odds to chase all the way through the river.

Be more aggressive.

 

[Ronaldadio]

First off a minimum 3BB (300) preflop bet should have been played if not pushed given stack size.

Second there is no way you should have let the flop go without pushing.

You gave proper odds to chase all the way through the river.

Be more aggressive.

Its a limit game so I couldn`t or I would have

 

[ChuckTs]

Raise preflop, and I think postflop is fine.

 

[tosborn]

Its a limit game so I couldn`t or I would have

Sorry, I missed that. Although I still raise preflop.

 

[Lo-Dog]

Raise preflop, and I think postflop is fine.

Normally I wouldnt listen to a guy that can't even follow decent BR management but Chuck is correct.

 

[F Paulsson]

Raise preflop.

If you slow down anywhere postflop, you're making a mistake.

 

[Ronaldadio]

So given my position at the table what would your cut off pair be for a raise???

 

[tosborn]

I like to play 9's or better aggresively.

Edit: In any position.

 

[mrsnake3695]

We talked about this before. In limit you have to be more aggresive. JJ figures to be the best hand preflop, BET IT. Any pocket pairs have more value in limit, don't let a sutpid hand like ace X in cheaply.

Raise preflop. After that everything is fine, you lost to the only hand that could beat you, which of course might not have been there in the first place if you had of raised pre-flop.

 

[t1riel]

Raise preflop with pocket jacks! Also, I would have raised more than that after the turn. A straight draw like that I would make the player pay BIG for if he/she wanted to chase.

 

[mrsnake3695]

Raise preflop with pocket jacks! Also, I would have raised more than that after the turn. A straight draw like that I would make the player pay BIG for if he/she wanted to chase.

It's Limit.

 

[F Paulsson]

So given my position at the table what would your cut off pair be for a raise???

Nines, probably, yeah. Depending on the table I might go even lower as an isolation raise, but nines are probably okay, tens are clearly on the right side and jacks aren't up for discussion.

 

[Ronaldadio]

OK, but do you not think u need to give a certain amount of concideration to the buyin level?

That is why I didnt, possibly wrongly, raise preflop. I find in low buy ins any Ace, K9+ and any sooted cards (and any pair) will chase u til it mathematically impossibly for them to catch.

This might sound basic, but that is the way I like it , in limit we raise until we think we could be behind, check if we are not sure and then fold if we are beat? All of this is reliant on pot odds? As opposed to say NL ?

I hope I don`t sound silly, but I like to make things sound as basic as possible so we all understand.

 

[F Paulsson]

The buy-in level may lead to the same conclusion as "the table conditions": If it's loose and everyone is calling me, I may simply call with more hands, if it's tight I may raise with more hands.

Pocket jacks, however, are not really affected by table conditions in your position. It doesn't matter if you're at the loosest table on the planet, you should raise in this spot. I probably limp tens if I "know" that everyone will call me. I won't raise nines if I think there's a good chance I'll get called in many spots.

Kinda like that.

If you want to draw comparisons to no-limit, I'd say that if no-limit is a game of implied odds (it is), limit is a game of equity. This is why it's good to raise with pocket jacks in limit in this spot, whereas it might be even -EV to do so in NL depending on table conditions. Ironically, raising with 98s might be more profitable than jacks in this spot in NL. It's because pocket jacks aren't going to win a huge pot unless you get really lucky, and you're liable to make a lot of mistakes with them postflop in no-limit. 98s are easier to play in that sense, and you might end up winning a huge pot.

But in limit, equity comes into play. You stand really good chances of winning the hand with JJ, and therefore you should raise. For shits and giggles, let's make up some hands and see what comes out of PokerStove.

I'm assigning pretty loose numbers to these players here, but I think that's mostly okay (40% for everyone except for the small blind who gets 80% and the BB of course gets 100%).

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 27.808% 27.51% 00.37% 106250 1438.83 { JhJs }
Hand 1: 14.306% 13.43% 00.91% 51886 3518.17 { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 14.087% 13.23% 00.89% 51109 3447.42 { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 3: 14.155% 13.29% 00.90% 51336 3482.50 { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 16.984% 16.14% 00.89% 62355 3421.75 { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 5: 12.658% 12.01% 00.68% 46388 2637.33 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 73s+, 62s+, 52s+, 43s, A2o+, K2o+, Q2o+, J3o+, T5o+, 95o+, 85o+, 75o+, 65o, 54o }

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Our call nets us, in "Sklansky bucks" (ask if you don't know what it is), 27% * 500 = $135. What happens if we raise?

Let's stipulate that only three people would play if we raise, and that these players then also all have hands that are in the top 30% of starting hands.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,300,324 games 23.516 secs 55,295 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.577% 39.18% 00.40% 509464 5173.00 { JhJs }
Hand 1: 20.173% 19.27% 00.91% 250541 11780.83 { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, A5o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 20.144% 19.24% 00.91% 250130 11815.50 { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, A5o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 3: 20.105% 19.19% 00.91% 249557 11881.17 { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, A5o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }

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How many Sklansky bucks do we win here? 40% * 600 = $240.

That's a lot of money. Toss in the upside that we'll win the hand more often (= less variance) and that winning pots is important in tournaments since it's about staying alive, the raise is extremely clear.

 

[Ronaldadio]

Thanks for that Fp (and I am aware of the termonology)

I think the point I`m trying to make, being basic, is that in FL, in the JJ scenario, I bet out as I am probably ahead. The flop/ turn are to be bet to the limit because, looking at the texture of the flop, I am probably still ahead. On the river, however, there were more hands that could have me beat - A3 becomes more likely, 68 possible but why didnt he raise when he hit, etc. So, unlike NL, in fixed, to be safe, u might be better calling than not.

FP, for a point of sanity, although the guy won the pot, I was right to build up the pot and technically he was wrong for chasing - he didn`t have the odds, did he??? Even if he thought his Ace would have been good (which with a 2 kicker and an unpaired board I wouldn`t) he only had 7 outs. In reallity, he must have been chasing the gutshot, giving him 4 outs.
I always ask this because I think about what I would have done in the other guys situation. After the flop and the raise I would have folded 80% of the time and called 20%. After the turn I would have folded as I was having to put 200 into a pot of 1100. So I`m putting in about 20% with a 10% chance of catching - does that make sense?

 

[Red Oak RDU]

YOU PLAYED THAT WELL EXCEPT RAISING PREFLOP, THE OTHER PERSON WAS CHASING OBVIOUSLY

 

[12skin]

they always catch when they chase it seems like.


Can you elaborate on sklansky bucks. I can see how you come up with the percentage like 27% favorite to win, but how did you come up with 600?

 

[F Paulsson]

"Sklansky bucks" is just a cute way of phrasing the expected value of one's actions. If I bet $200 (into an empty pot, let's say) and you call when you're 30% to win, our respective expected value is $400 * 70% for me, and $400 * 30% for you.

Ronaldadio, you played it right after the flop. He did not so much have the odds to chase, although you bring up an interesting point that I think a lot of people may misunderstand. I'll write something about it in the blog next chance I get.

 

[jsaw]

Agree with others, a preflop raise may have scared the A3 away but since the player called post flop to a gutshot without the proper odds, he or she may have called anyway.