Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
Agreed. Unless I've got enough history with a player to know his tendencies from experience alone when I recognize his name, I'm at least referring to my HUD before proceeding on almost EVERY hand. If for some reason I don't have it, obviously I proceed with out it... but if it's there, I'm looking at it and deciding accordingly.
It's actually rare that a hand "plays itself." I know people like to use that term, but it's really not that common. There are many decisions to be made in an effort to maximize profit from a given hand, and how I proceed depends greatly on my opponent. I could flop a royal flush and I still wouldn't play it the same way against every opponent, and the information available to me would affect how I play it. Unless you're getting AIPF there's really no such thing as a hand playing itself.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Very gross numbers, full 9 seat table;
80% +/- of our hands will be PF folds (easy to say 85% here). They played themselves.
2% will be PP above 99/TT which pretty much play themselves.
Leaves 15% +/- of our hands that we would/might be involved in without a tracker/HUD.
Of these, perhaps 5% might be affected by some info we glean via a Tracker HUD. Much of the info would have been available without the HUD; betting patterns, agro rating, positional observations perhaps some others which are fairly easy to recognize without a hud.
That is not a lot of hands. 1 hand in 20, or 1 hand in a bit over 2 orbits...not a lot.
And of that 5%, maybe half that are hands where the tracker/HUD suggests we fold rather than persue. So, like I said, not as many hands will be affected as we envision will be before we actually start using the tracker/HUD.
And by 'play themselves', I do not mean they win or lose, but rather the progress of the action is pretty much straight forward. In that final 5% of hands the HUD might help us decide we are in a situation to do something other than what we might have done without that HUD. And of course that HUD info is there for every hand.
80% +/- of our hands will be PF folds (easy to say 85% here). They played themselves.
2% will be PP above 99/TT which pretty much play themselves.
Leaves 15% +/- of our hands that we would/might be involved in without a tracker/HUD.
Of these, perhaps 5% might be affected by some info we glean via a Tracker HUD. Much of the info would have been available without the HUD; betting patterns, agro rating, positional observations perhaps some others which are fairly easy to recognize without a hud.
That is not a lot of hands. 1 hand in 20, or 1 hand in a bit over 2 orbits...not a lot.
And of that 5%, maybe half that are hands where the tracker/HUD suggests we fold rather than persue. So, like I said, not as many hands will be affected as we envision will be before we actually start using the tracker/HUD.
And by 'play themselves', I do not mean they win or lose, but rather the progress of the action is pretty much straight forward. In that final 5% of hands the HUD might help us decide we are in a situation to do something other than what we might have done without that HUD. And of course that HUD info is there for every hand.
vinylspiros
PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
See,thats what i mean. when your not using a HUD, if someone raises, you look at your hand and decide if its a call,fold,or raise(assuming you dont know much about the guy).
But if you have a HUD and you see that this opponent is hyper aggro or aggro pre but shuts down on the flop to a 3bet,then you might suddenly decide to out maneauver him or smthng. This is something that a HUDless player cannot do. Thats why i asked if the HUD influences every decision or just "some" decisions.
It seems to me as though the HUD will probably play a significant roll on whether you want to get involved in a hand, EVERY time ,and will obviously help in dictating which move might be the most profitable according to villains tendencies.
But if you have a HUD and you see that this opponent is hyper aggro or aggro pre but shuts down on the flop to a 3bet,then you might suddenly decide to out maneauver him or smthng. This is something that a HUDless player cannot do. Thats why i asked if the HUD influences every decision or just "some" decisions.
It seems to me as though the HUD will probably play a significant roll on whether you want to get involved in a hand, EVERY time ,and will obviously help in dictating which move might be the most profitable according to villains tendencies.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Very gross numbers, full 9 seat table;
80% +/- of our hands will be PF folds (easy to say 85% here). They played themselves.
2% will be PP above 99/TT which pretty much play themselves.
Leaves 15% +/- of our hands that we would/might be involved in without a tracker/HUD.
Of these, perhaps 5% might be affected by some info we glean via a Tracker HUD. Much of the info would have been available without the HUD; betting patterns, agro rating, positional observations perhaps some others which are fairly easy to recognize without a hud.
That is not a lot of hands. 1 hand in 20, or 1 hand in a bit over 2 orbits...not a lot.
And of that 5%, maybe half that are hands where the tracker/HUD suggests we fold rather than persue. So, like I said, not as many hands will be affected as we envision will be before we actually start using the tracker/HUD.
And by 'play themselves', I do not mean they win or lose, but rather the progress of the action is pretty much straight forward. In that final 5% of hands the HUD might help us decide we are in a situation to do something other than what we might have done without that HUD. And of course that HUD info is there for every hand.
You do realize that considering the hands you would have folded preflop with OR without a HUD is silly right? Our profit margin comes from the hands we play, not the hands we fold pre, so I think the point is the impact on the hands we're involved in...
Also, kind of nit-picking but JJ/QQ are not hands that play themselves at all -> these are some of the trouble hands for a lot of players, and where a lot of our decisions aren't obvious, because we will frequently be on boards where we hold a top pair or 2nd pair hand and have to make decisions.
Plus there ARE spots preflop where a HUD will allow me to play a hand and see a profit with that I otherwise wouldn't have. Most of my 3bet bluffs are made possible by seeing that a player with a high Fv3bet stat will give up a ton, making a 3bet with A3s or a similar quite profitable.
But really the point is that who cares if the HUD doesn't change my decisions on hands that are by definition 0 EV (folded preflop). Obviously I care a helluva lot more about the ones where I'm marginally +EV and optimizing my decision-making postflop.
C
credsfan03
Visionary
Silver Level
I have heard from some very good poker players that they do not help much unless you are multi tabling. They said that as long as you takes notes on the regs at your level that you should be fine without a HUD as long as you are only playing a few tables.
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
I wouldn't call a couple of people disagree with you "negative feedback." More like they just disagreed with you.
And I wouldn't say it's beating a dead horse at all because what you argue as "fact" I very much disagree with. I argue the vast majority of HUD users will disagree with your assessment that a HUD plays a role in only a "few hands per hundred." I'd be more willing to argue the opposite extreme, in fact, i.e. that there's very few hands that it DOESN'T play a role in.
You might be an uber-nit who plays only his cards in a very static style, or plays 24+ tables at a time. In which case your argument might well apply to you or someone with that style. To an exploitative player however, who is constantly adjusting his play based on the situation (including not only his opponents' stats but his own), his HUD will play a role in almost every hand unless this is a game made up primarily of people he knows very well. I may well (and often do) choose to play hands that sans HUD would be an automatic fold.
Put it this way: I play quite a bit of poker without a HUD. My HUD game overall is very different and much more dynamic than my HUDless game. My game adapts to the information available, and tends to be much more conservative when I have less information. So it's in that context that I think a lot of us are going to disagree with you.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
If you heard this from good players, then yeah I could see this. However, you have to be pretty solid to keep track of a table so well that a HUD never helps or informs your decisions. If you're not as good of a player, you likely won't be note-taking as effectively, won't use your notes as well, and will have less info.
Plus most people who play semi-seriously online prefer to play more than 1 or 2 tables. And past like 3 tables I'd say a HUD is almost essential. Not saying you can't win without one, but a HUD can help you work to improve many aspects of your play.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
The actual point I originally was trying to make is that a new user should not expect to suddenly be playing more hands and more profitably. Whereas some might think I am saying a HUD is useless, that is not the case at all. But no matter what, I will not allow the HUD to get me to bluff 72o.
Woops... I had originally typed a reply to that post that I quoted from you saying I understood what you meant etc. Somehow got deleted.
Yah, def don't start opening 72o
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
Now this I obviously agree with.
Hmm, I can't say for sure but I've probably done it. There are times when I have a clear enough read on an opponent strictly from HUD stats that I don't even pay attention to my cards before making a move. Which goes back to what I said about playing a dynamic and exploitative strategy. It can be a higher variance style, sure, but it also tends to be the most lucrative when applied properly.But no matter what, I will not allow the HUD to get me to bluff 72o.
fasteddee74
Rock Star
Silver Level
You hit on the head. It really helps playing multiple games knowing what type of player you are in a pot with. I always review my big hands and or big pots to see if I made a mistake after my sessions with the hand replayer. It is a information tool, Poker is all about information.
M
Macaroon
Rock Star
Silver Level
Please tell me: Do PT and HEM collate all the hands that are played at your table or just the hands you are involved with (ie after you bet)? Or do they include hands played (for instance) on other tables in the same tourney. Nothing I have read makes this absolutely clear.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
They record every hand that you participate in. This means you are seated at the table, but does NOT mean you had to see a flop, bet, or anything else. So long as you took an action in the hand (note: folding preflop is an action), the hand will be recorded.
NineLions
Advanced beginner
Silver Level
You do know that you can save a text file that records every hand that you play, right? If not, find out where you hand histories are stored and take a look at them.
All the trackers use for data is what's in those saved files and collect statistics from it.
valientone
Rock Star
Silver Level
I like the auto Note Tracker.
Really cool its really cool Just dont check your actual graph a lot. I was checking it what seemed like every half hour while multitabling and it was discouraging. Now I check it once a week and its much much better and not so stressful.
Really cool its really cool Just dont check your actual graph a lot. I was checking it what seemed like every half hour while multitabling and it was discouraging. Now I check it once a week and its much much better and not so stressful.
B
bnasp2
Visionary
Silver Level
First thing: HUD can help you a lot at choosing a table, where you actually want to play. If there is too much very good players, having position in you, maybe its better to choose other table. I only feel comfortable if most players at table at random amateur players (not total fish necessary, just not too many nits).
M
Macaroon
Rock Star
Silver Level
Thanks for info re the hands PT and HEM collate. I play mainly tourneys, and a lot of those are STTs and I do not multi-table. So perhaps for me it would be a bit over the top since I see every hand from start to finish. And I think I rarely see the same player twice as I play mainly micro or low. I did once start to make notes on pokerstars - I made quite a lot in the first week and hardly ever saw any of them again! Thanks again for the help.
vinylspiros
PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
guys i just down loaded the trial version for holdem manager and im going through it. Which stats do you think i should be using as a first time user so i dont overwhelm myself with information? except for vpip and pfr.
What else will i be needing? and what is totally useless?(for me since i wont be able to understand it anyways)
What else will i be needing? and what is totally useless?(for me since i wont be able to understand it anyways)
vinylspiros
PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
hey scourge thanks alot man. good stuff. ok so ill try the same and see how it works out for me. one question?
can u possibly send me a link or tell me what the usual numbers are for each? (ranges). and what does steal and fold/steal mean? what is considered a steal?
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
I mean the numbers will vary based on player type.
Steal is just a raise from late position or the small blind.
vinylspiros
PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
gotcha man. Been using the hud today all day long.its pretty sick knowing who your up against. Big mistake that i never got it earlier. ill get used to it sooner or later. thnks for help.